Thread: Origins of Oriental Dance Posture

I was laying in bed last night, when I should have been sleeping, thinking about oriental dance posture, and wondering why we hold ourselves in this particular position. Is the shoulders back, ribcage lifted, knees soft, pelvis tucked, chin up posture something brought into the dance form when ballet started being introduced? Many of the "folk" forms tend to be more grounded.

i think that's true of posture. I think the folk forms are just the way women stand and walk in those cultures. I couldn't help but notice in Egypt that the women were very grounded and slow walking and with alot of hip movement- switching. They also had that sepatation of chest and hips because they would maintain that switching gait even while carrying a large package on their head and a baby on their hip.

I don't know why it was introduced. I would think it was from the influence of ballet but I feel it the most important part of the dance because it gives the dancer such a strong stage appearance. If her shoulders are back, chest lifted and chin up she will command nothing but attention and respect. Where as a dancer with poor posture will only draw pitty and sympathy from a crowd.

Well, Samia Gamal and Naima Akef have this posture, so it dates at least back to then.

Sedonia

I'm not sure I believe that the whole lifted posture came from ballet or from the west at all.

In fact, if you compare the posture of non-dancers (or even most dancers) in, say the U.S. versus. women in Egypt, the Egyptian women have an inherent proud, lifted upper body. Its part of their cultural body language. And its part of the elusive "it" that so many western dancers lack.

In the U.S. the standard of beauty is to stand with the ribcage sunken and the shoulders slightly rounded forward. In younger women and girls, this is an element of body language. In older women it can become hardened and semi-permanent from years of slumping and desk work.

I tell my students that here, women reveal their bodies with their clothing choices, then hide their bodies with their body language. Its like an oxymoronic clash of the sexual revolution and our culture's puritanical ancestry. In contrast, in Egypt (and elsewhere in the Middle East and Africa and some other cultures as well), women walk proudly even if modest clothing hides their bodies.

Sedonia

I like that Sedonia. That's so true.Theres nothing worse than seeing a woman dressed beautifully, hair done, nails done, etc and slouching and looking like she wants to hide. I notice that about alot of African women, walking like a queen no matter one's station in life. It's a good lesson.
Now let me sit up at my computer.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I tell my students that here, women reveal their bodies with their clothing choices, then hide their bodies with their body language. Its like an oxymoronic clash of the sexual revolution and our culture's puritanical ancestry. In contrast, in Egypt (and elsewhere in the Middle East and Africa and some other cultures as well), women walk proudly even if modest clothing hides their bodies.

Bingo.

Of course "stage" posture will be more formalized/standardized than ordinary posture, just as dance movements themselves are more formalized in theatrical belly dance as opposed to social dance. Not to mention that a pro dancer needs to maintain safe posture for the long-term health of back and joints, not such a big concern for Fatima when she dances several times a year at her cousins' wedding parties.

Nisaa

Originally Posted by ssipes

Well, Samia Gamal and Naima Akef have this posture, so it dates at least back to then.

Sedonia

I remember Nourhan Sharif commenting in her Assaya video that the Saiidi people are very proud, and dance with a proud, erect posture.

I saw this on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellydance

"In the 1940s King Farouk of Egypt employed Russian ballet instructor Ivanova to teach his daughters, and it was she who first taught the great dancer Samia Gamal to use the veil to improve her arm carriage."

Maybe a link to the ballet-like posture?

More recently Mahmoud Reda and the Reda Troupe have added a ballet influence to oriental dance.

Originally Posted by rakgirl

I like that Sedonia. That's so true.Theres nothing worse than seeing a woman dressed beautifully, hair done, nails done, etc and slouching and looking like she wants to hide. I notice that about alot of African women, walking like a queen no matter one's station in life. It's a good lesson.
Now let me sit up at my computer.

I agree totally. Posture affects how you look so much more than how much you weigh, how expensive your clothes are, how much time or money you've spent on your hair and makeup.

I do see African and Latina women who walk like queens, but not very many Caucasian women in our culture who walk like queens. But I do try to do this all the time.

I also tell my students that until this posture is incorporated into daily life, they aren't "real" dancers. It sounds harsh, but it gets the point across.

Sedonia

Originally Posted by rakgirl

I like that Sedonia. That's so true.Theres nothing worse than seeing a woman dressed beautifully, hair done, nails done, etc and slouching and looking like she wants to hide. I notice that about alot of African women, walking like a queen no matter one's station in life. It's a good lesson.
Now let me sit up at my computer.

You guys just reminded me of a beautiful scene I saw at the gym a few years ago that has never left my mind.

At this gym, we have a large hot tub and a steam room. Some people choose to wear swimsuits, others go naked, some people cover themselves up with towels, and I don't doubt that most people, towels or not, feel that they need to cover up and go as quickly as they can from shower to hot tub to "hide" in the water.

I remember this African-American woman (actually, she could have been African without the American part for all I know) came into the room, completely naked, hair piled on top of her head, a full-figured body like one of those Willendorf statues - proudly, shoulders back, walked into the steam room and laid down on one of the benches like a queen. I never forgot how much she reminded me of some kind of egyptian Pharaohess in the way she held herself. It was incredibily beautiful. And all this in spite of the fact that American culture teaches us that fat is ugly.

actually, i have seen caucasian women in Dallas who do that. Maybe it's also a southern thing. Those ladies who lunch in Dallas walk like they are the queens of sheba too. of course they are also dressed to the nines with big jewelry and big hair to boot.
it would be hard to carry off that look with rounded shoulders and slumping.
in one of my favorite books- "Black Girl In Paris" there's this whole section where the protagonist an African American woman goes to the grocery store and sees an African woman trying to buy 3 eggs out of a dozen. She argues with the clerk and ends up leaving because she only wanted 3 and couldn't afford a dozen. What strikes the protagonist and how slowly and surely she walked and how she never seemed embarassed the whole time.
I wonder could I maintain that queenly posture in the face of something embarassing or naked liek Nepenthe noticed in the sauna.
It's a good lesson for us tho to always be Queens.

I also wonder about how much posture is affected by time. I think that in the past in the US, people in general use to have better posture. Posture seems to have gone to crap with all the desk/computer jobs now. Think back on those dated ettiquette books about walking with a book balanced on your head, that use to be the lady-like ideal. Now it's the lamented Paris Hilton posture.

I agree that in general, African women walk more like queens. However, when does the gently tucked pelvis come in? I thought most African dances are generally more untucked and arched?

This is a neat topic!

Originally Posted by ssipes

I also tell my students that until this posture is incorporated into daily life, they aren't "real" dancers.

I agree. I remember years ago, when I was doing Scottish Highland dance while in college, one day I saw a person two blocks away from me just walking along minding her own business. Even from that distance, I realized it was my Scottish Highland teacher, carrying herself like a dancer.

yeah that tucked pelvis thing is a mystery. it seems most African women walk with the back arched. I know I do because it makes my butt look bigget and everything i do is to look curvier.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I agree. I remember years ago, when I was doing Scottish Highland dance while in college, one day I saw a person two blocks away from me just walking along minding her own business. Even from that distance, I realized it was my Scottish Highland teacher, carrying herself like a dancer.

One of the nicest things I ever overheard anyone say about me was a whispered "She even walks just like a dancer!" as I made my way across the room at an event.

I notice that about alot of African women, walking like a queen no matter one's station in life. It's a good lesson.

Hell yes. Some of the Somali women in particular round here walk like giraffes or something - so long and elegant and steady. Every time I see some I'm like "no wonder these women make great catwalk models!"

I've been informed by various tango teachers that Argentinians walk with their chests lifted and open as a matter of course, too, which is of course reflected in the dance.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I'm not sure I believe that the whole lifted posture came from ballet or from the west at all.

In fact, if you compare the posture of non-dancers (or even most dancers) in, say the U.S. versus. women in Egypt, the Egyptian women have an inherent proud, lifted upper body. Its part of their cultural body language. And its part of the elusive "it" that so many western dancers lack.

In the U.S. the standard of beauty is to stand with the ribcage sunken and the shoulders slightly rounded forward. In younger women and girls, this is an element of body language. In older women it can become hardened and semi-permanent from years of slumping and desk work.

I tell my students that here, women reveal their bodies with their clothing choices, then hide their bodies with their body language. Its like an oxymoronic clash of the sexual revolution and our culture's puritanical ancestry. In contrast, in Egypt (and elsewhere in the Middle East and Africa and some other cultures as well), women walk proudly even if modest clothing hides their bodies.

Sedonia

Everything Sedonia said about how Egyptians walk. Especially that part about the natural Egyptian posture being a part (I think it's a big part) of the "it" that so many non-Egyptian dancers try to find. Most Egyptians walking in the street whom I've seen on my many stays in Egypt have excellent posture with shoulders back, chest somewhat lifted, backs not swayed/arched.

I once took a workshop with Ramzi el-Edlibi (which I probably just massacred!) in which he exclaimed that American women don't know how to walk like women! He then proceeded to spend the next hour teaching us how to first walk like real women before we could dance like them.

It remains one of my favorite workshop topics: being taught how to walk like a woman by a Lebanese man. (I'm pretty sure he said he was Lebanese; truly eastern at any rate.p:: )

Kitty

Originally Posted by mihnea

I agree that in general, African women walk more like queens. However, when does the gently tucked pelvis come in? I thought most African dances are generally more untucked and arched?

Some women may look arched when its in fact from their arrangement of muscle/fat, not posture. However, some women not so endowed may sway the pelvis in an attempt to emulate the more bootylicious figure.

Also, what kind of lower body posture do North African women generally have? Last weekend at the Amel Tafsout workshop (traditional Tunesian and Algerian dances), she mentioned several times posture and dance movement is different in the North African dances. (sometimes, oddly enough she was contrasting North Africa with Egypt, but others it seemed like she was talking North Africa vs. sub-saharan.) She mentioned that in North African dance the legs were always together and closed vs. more open stances in some other African dances.

Sedonia

I had a friend once describe how the players of football (soccer) move. Brazillians are dance like, Germans are highly organised, Australian's play like Aussie Rules Footy...now I'm thinking of dances/movements in different cultures. How Balinese balance offerings on their heads, and while their dance is low in the knees, their bodies still very upright, or how Japanese are so gentle in nature and how this is reflected in their dances. Australian Aboriginals dance mostly with slouched backs and very connected with the land, so too when they walk and go about everyday life. So it is of no surprise ME dance would be any different, as Sedonia points out.

Hmmm. I do think some movement vocabulary is culturally inscribed, but it's not necessarily related directly to people being innately "gentle" or "connected to the land". With football for instance, you have to wonder whether Australians play like they're playing Rules because, well, they grew up playing Rules. (Which is based on Gaelic football btw, so that's probably why it's so violent and terroristic lol.) Perhaps it's more about what qualities different cultures value? NZ male culture is macho but modest - the male body doing manly-man things is celebrated, it's all about being harsh and tough, but mostly only on the playing field. There's a kind of hesitant confidence, if that makes sense, to the way NZ men move IMO, but very rough hewn and strength-focused when dancing as a rule, at least when they start.

My male BD student is Malaysian, so a lot of the things that we do that might seem kind of femmy on a Kiwi bloke don't look that way on him - I think a certain refinement of movement is more normal for men in Asian countries than it is in Kiwiland, where you're supposed to impose yourself on the landscape in case it swallows you.

LOL

Warning...I'm about to go slightly off topic.

Yes, I totally agree with your aussie rules comment. My point was that we tend to carry on certain aspects of our lives into other areas. It's funny you bring up your Malaysian student. There are many similarities between Malaysia and Indonesia. I will not try and date it, but up until round the 1950's (I may be way out here though) in the kratons (kingdoms) in central java only men were aloud to dance, but dressed up as women! This occured over hundreds of years. If I look at the men of that area now, I see their dance style is still very feminine looking. I wondered if something similar occured in Malaysia. Would be interesting to know.

Originally Posted by gotraqs

I was laying in bed last night, when I should have been sleeping, thinking about oriental dance posture, and wondering why we hold ourselves in this particular position. Is the shoulders back, ribcage lifted, knees soft, pelvis tucked, chin up posture something brought into the dance form when ballet started being introduced? Many of the "folk" forms tend to be more grounded.

The old American Classic style that was greatly influenced by Turkish dancers typically had a very "laid back", round shouldered posture. I think that's because it's very easy to get into that posture while playing zills and shimmying .... something about bringing the arms forward to play zills and bending the knees to shimmy, I've noticed. It's a killer on the back, though!

My teacher not only taught the upright posture, but emphasized keeping the head still when isolating body movements and explained it to be because it was necessary for when it comes to balancing things on the head. A lot of ME women have grown up balancing things on the head and I believe that's why many have such a beautiful posture and walk.

As for the tucked pelvis, I wrote an entire article about that on Gilded Serpent some years back. I think there's a big misunderstanding with some students and teachers who think tucked means consciously squeezing the glutes and pulling the pelvis forward into an unnatural position. That may be great for ballet dancers for enabling the kinds of movements they do, but do that in this dance and you're greatly restricting the hip movement. IMHO it's a natural/neutral position, as stressed in Pilates and as opposed to exaggerated tucking or pushing the hips back and hyperextending.

I lament the fact that in any way shape or form Paris Hilton is the standard for anything. ..cr.:

My mother actually put me through a "finishing school" type of thing where I learned to walk and have good posture among other things. My favorite compliment came when my husband and I were in Spain and two American women were behind us, obviously lost and needing directions. One of them suggested asking us for help as we "looked American" and the other answered "Oh, they're not American - look, their standing up straight!" ..l;,

I do try to pass this along to my students - about walking tall and opening up the torso. It is a strong body language statement and therefore uncomfortable for some people. It's important though, imho - you can't really feel "less than" when you are walking proudly.

Originally Posted by vilia

IMHO it's a natural/neutral position, as stressed in Pilates and as opposed to exaggerated tucking or pushing the hips back and hyperextending.

Ava Fleming covered this in her "Sizzling Hips" dvd. An eye opener for me because I've always been told to tuck tuck tuck my butt under and my back would still hurt! Now I find neutral and suddenly I can lift my chest properly and relax!

About 2 months ago a friend and I were walking through an antique shop, chatting with the 2 ladies who were working there. They asked if we were dancers because our posture was so striking! Made my day!

Originally Posted by vilia

As for the tucked pelvis, I wrote an entire article about that on Gilded Serpent some years back. I think there's a big misunderstanding with some students and teachers who think tucked means consciously squeezing the glutes and pulling the pelvis forward into an unnatural position. IMHO it's a natural/neutral position, as stressed in Pilates and as opposed to exaggerated tucking or pushing the hips back and hyperextending.

I completely agree. "Tucking" is a logical way to explain proper pelvis alignment to students who are in the "high heels" posture of butt sticking out behind them and breasts thrust forward. But if someone is starting with a nicely neutral pelvis and then tries to "tuck" according to the teacher's instructions, it can indeed cause the problems you described.

I try to use concepts like, "Draw a triangle connecting the two protrusions on the front of your pelvis and your pubic bone. Now, make sure that triangle is pointing straight down to the floor - NOT forward, NOT behind you, but straight down.

And then there's Jacqueline Chapman's video (she's a UK dancer), in which the instruction is to pretend you're holding a pencil in your vagina - make it point straight down to the floor.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I try to use concepts like, "Draw a triangle connecting the two protrusions on the front of your pelvis and your pubic bone. Now, make sure that triangle is pointing straight down to the floor - NOT forward, NOT behind you, but straight down.

I use this concept too. I actually make them feel these bones on their own bodies so they can get a mental image of the bone structure minus the flesh.

I also have them visualize a buck of water sitting inside their pelvis. You don't want to spill the water forwards or back. Of course, this visualization only works if their mental body map is accurate, so it probably doesn't work well for people with serious postural issues.

Sedonia

Originally Posted by gotraqs

I saw this on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellydance

"In the 1940s King Farouk of Egypt employed Russian ballet instructor Ivanova to teach his daughters, and it was she who first taught the great dancer Samia Gamal to use the veil to improve her arm carriage."

P.S. As anyone can post and edit the content on wikipedia, and much of the information on this page has no references cited, I have no idea whether the quote above represents fact or fiction. .p::

I wonder if the soft knees/neutral pelvis came about because it creates a wider range of motion? Anyone who experimented with different ways to hold their body while dancing would quickly decide that soft knees and a neutral pelvis is the best way to get a good range of motion in the hips.

I co-wrote a short piece about Egyptian posture for the booklet in Dancing with Genies. I believe the posture originally stemmed from the fact many of these women carried heavy burdens on their heads, dating back to antiquity. I accompagnied it with several photos I took at the Louvre of an 18th dynasty wood statue that perfectly illustrates the point.