Thread: Students Pay to Perform

I could have sworn I saw this thread somewhere but I cannot find it (if it exists, I welcome any links to it).

What are your thoughts on requiring students to pay to perform at their own haflas?

I'm personally against the practice but other instructors insist that because it is a learning experience, students should pay for that experience.

Any other opponents or Devil's Advocates?

If the venue needs to be paid for and there aren't enough audience members there to cover the cost of the venue..... then maybe the students should pitch in so they can keep that hafla going so they continue to have places to perform...


On the other hand, if the student brings 10 paying guests to see her/him perform, then I don't think it is fair to make the student pay also...

I've never seen direct "pay to perform." Does that happen?

The version I'm familiar with is workshop followed by show, and you must attend (and therefore pay for) the workshop if you're going to be in the show. Frustrating if the event is in your area and mainly attended by your local dance community, but you can't afford the workshop fee and/or the topic is something you're not interested in. Like for me for example, suppose the workshop was $150 and the topic was "Gothic Tribal Urban Hip Hop Belly Dance Fusion." And it was taking place at a beautiful venue just up the street and all my best friends were going to be dancing.,m:: Bit of an exaggerated example, but you get the idea.
Rosette

If the economics work out that otherwise the organizer would have a deficit, then it seems fair and a good contribution to the community to distribute costs to the performers, as well. In the long run, that benefits everybody.

Interesting. I used to think pay to play was really tacky but after 10 years of organizing haflas and showcases for other dancers and their students for free, my dance company has just announced our first pay-to-play showcase. We're charging a tiered rate (the more slots you buy, the cheaper the per slot cost is). We've sold all of our slots.
When the haflas were free, well you got what you paid for. A multi-purpose room with crummy lighting, icky floors, and less glitz.
With this new event we are:
1. providing a luxury ballroom with ambient lighting, cafe tables, light hors d'oeuvres, and a cash bar
2. the teacher's name on all printed promo materials (professional, full color postcards & posters)
3. links to the teacher's web page on all electronic materials
4. a printed program w/teacher name, contact info, bio, and all performer/student names
5. a reserved table and free admission for all student performers
Tickets are on sale to friends, family, et cetera. no comp tickets. The cost for a single performance slot is $20/class, $30 for 2...IMO its a bargain considering everything you get.

We're not going to shift all of our events to this model, but we thought we'd try it. Most teachers here dont have enough classes/students to hold individual recitals so we've hosted recitals for years. Now we're just asking for folks to help us cover the expense and in exchange we're polishing the presentation and promotions up to make it mutually beneficial.

In this instance, professional performers do not pay but they also do not *get paid* to perform.

The venue is the owner/instructor's dance studio. This is basically a student recital.

Oh boy -

Well the fact is somebody has to pay for the space, food, publicity etc.

So, I don't think people should have to perform, no.

But - if people don't chip in to rent a space if necessary then who pays? The teacher probably - which is kinda hard for most of us -

It would be nice if we got enough paying costumers. Or a patron. Or SOMETHING.

I'm tellin' ya - Times Are Hard.

My husband has a client who's an undertaker and HE says Business Is Bad.

Times are REALLY hard....l;,..l;,..l;,

Originally Posted by Azhia

In this instance, professional performers do not pay but they also do not *get paid* to perform.

The venue is the owner/instructor's dance studio. This is basically a student recital.

Yeah but it takes A LOT of time, energy, et cetera to organize an event. Even if it is the teacher's studio, they still have to cover operating expenses (rent, heat, utilities...). The organizer has to promote, set up, run the show, clean up...Bringing 10 people to see you perform is nice and thank you for helping sell tickets but for the other 30 people who expect to perform and dont bring a single person in the door, well...
plus, I think the rationale that serious students who want to go pro need to learn is true. You're not entitled to fame or fortune just because you have a costume & dance well. You have to build your professional career. A lot of dancers earn their money not from being dance stars but from being teachers, event organizers, et cetera. Dancers who pull their own weight and contribute money, time, and energy are more highly regarded by their peers than divas who just show up to dance, get their applause, and go home.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

Oh boy -

I'm tellin' ya - Times Are Hard.

My husband has a client who's an undertaker and HE says Business Is Bad.

Times are REALLY hard....l;,..l;,..l;,

YIKES!!!,f::

Having been on both sides (student/guest performer - organizer of fundraiser), I really don't see an issue at all with *all* performers paying a nominal fee to be part of the event, thereby offsetting the costs (venue, advertising, food & beverage as applicable, etc.) and in the long run, allowing for these events to continue to happen....

I think it's fine to make EVERYONE pay in order to chip in on food, music equipment, and the venue. But I think it's ridiculous requiring students to pay to perform if you aren't making everyone else pay (ie: if it's just a small free event at the studio or whatnot)... it seems very controlling to me. Performing isn't just a privilege... it should be encouraged for those students who are serious and want to grow as dancers. There were two events that made me get more serious about dancing: my first performance, and my first really really nice costume. Making someone pay for that first performance experience might discourage some people who would otherwise continue to grow and take classes and become involved in the dance community.

Originally Posted by Lesedi

I think it's fine to make EVERYONE pay in order to chip in on food, music equipment, and the venue. But I think it's ridiculous requiring students to pay to perform if you aren't making everyone else pay (ie: if it's just a small free event at the studio or whatnot)... it seems very controlling to me. Performing isn't just a privilege... it should be encouraged for those students who are serious and want to grow as dancers. There were two events that made me get more serious about dancing: my first performance, and my first really really nice costume. Making someone pay for that first performance experience might discourage some people who would otherwise continue to grow and take classes and become involved in the dance community.

Well that's kind of how I see it.

Isn't this a little parallel to making people pay to audition? I realize there are other angles to that - for example if the prize is really valuable - but still...

?

Looking at my last two haflas, around 40% of the tickets went to performers, the majority of them students. If 40% of the audience don't pay for a ticket then the other 60% are going to have to pay a lot more, which is going to discourage non-performers from attending, which is going to make the whole situation worse.

Take a vote and see if everyone agrees to this. Then it will be a democratic decision. Not all students see this as part of their education to pay yet others do.

for our hafla's i pay 400E for the venue and 350E to music license.
i've been letting the performers in free, but i'm thinking of limiting that in future. if the people in the group dances dont pay, it's just tooo many free tickets. and i loose too much money. which means fewer and fewer hafla's get organised.

our hafla's are mostly a by dancers for dancers event, with very little outside public, which is nice and fun, but it means i need to rethink how to make em work

For shows - where we sell tickets. No students don't pay to perform. For haflas, then a token to cover costs such as venue hire or food.

Originally Posted by kashmir

For shows - where we sell tickets. No students don't pay to perform. For haflas, then a token to cover costs such as venue hire or food.

this is how it is done here too.

If you are not sure you will have enough ticket sales to cover costs, what about charging performers a certain fee, but giving them tickets they can sell to try to recoup their costs as well? Just an idea. We set up some of our girl scout fundraisers this way- each member had to sell a certain number of tickets or pay for what didn't sell, but it was phrased the other way around so it sounded nicer (but hey, we were raising money for a trip to Europe, so we were motivated!)

We had a discussion about 'this' (which actually ended up discussing a lot of the different types of performances) on tribe at Should performers pay?? - The Biz of Belly Dance - tribe.net My position remains: the organizer should not lose money on the deal. If food is provided, or rent must be paid, and the likelihood of paying audience is minimal (the situation in many areas) then I vote for charging performers as well as the non-audience.

oh- & the official student recitals actually get a ton of gp support- way more than haflas or even big name performers we bring up for workshops. When you have the family & friends of the performers invested in seeing their loved ones, you get much better turn out!
& yeah- the last student recital had a budget just under $1000, but we were able to cover it with ticket sales & program advertising. Could have saved $800 having it at the studio, but we wouldn't have been able to pack in the 300 people it took to cover costs. Heck, all the performers probably wouldn't have fit at once!

yeah, student recitals, i can easily have all the student performers NOT pay....

we can fill the venue (650 tickets sell out two years ago and hope to repeat that coming february)... we actually had quite a bit of profit for our charity of choice: just because!

Our parties/student platforms have everyone paying because the majority of the attendees are performers. The venue and food provided has to be paid for and the general public does not attend these events . I choose to add to the ticket price to raise money for charity. I usually make a lower price for performers .I do not make any profit but I raise some money for a good cause and at the same time give people an opportunity to show off their acts and to have a bit of fun. These events in our neck of woods would not happen if students/teachers and some pros didn't pay. Invited guest dancers wouldn't . They either get paid or offer their services for the charity as a headliner.
Locally we have a student and teacher theatre platform and there the tickets are sold outside the community and dancers do not pay.
I'm attending a theatre show at the weekend and am quite happy to pay the dancer price as it is going, as is our profit to Just Because......it's a matter of life and dance | Home

When I was in Japan my Ballet teacher made us all pay for our recital I don't see the difference with a hafla

In most other dance forms, students pay a fee to participate in recitals. Mine is the only class at one of the studios where I teach that does not have a required "recital fee" or "recital & costume fee."

If at all possible, I work it out so that the students in my classes don't have to pay to perform in a recital situation, but on occasion it is necessary to fund the venue, insurance, etc.

Originally Posted by mahsati

In most other dance forms, students pay a fee to participate in recitals. Mine is the only class at one of the studios where I teach that does not have a required "recital fee" or "recital & costume fee."

If at all possible, I work it out so that the students in my classes don't have to pay to perform in a recital situation, but on occasion it is necessary to fund the venue, insurance, etc.

I think it must depend on region- here, you wouldn't pay for more than your class & costume for jazz/tap/ballet. However, since most of the recital participants are under 20, mom & dad are usually footing the bill for class & their recital tickets too, so it amounts to the same thing, if you get right down to it! We over 20 year olds (ahem...) rely on ourselves, friends, SO etc. for those tickets- you can understand why it might be harder to fill the seats! We still find that the families/friends of newer students are more enthusiastic about attending recitals, which is why it is actually harder to fill haflas which are mostly just dancers/less appeal for gp & family & friends.

If it's a student show, then it shouldn't be advertised to the GP. As such, if it's not officially open to the GP, the audience is mostly comprised of the performers themselves.
If it's held at a venue that is being rented, then there should be a charge to cover that cost, and additional costs.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

If it's a student show, then it shouldn't be advertised to the GP. As such, if it's not officially open to the GP, the audience is mostly comprised of the performers themselves.
If it's held at a venue that is being rented, then there should be a charge to cover that cost, and additional costs.

I agree with the second half, but not necessarily with the first- I think it is fine to advertise a student show, as long as it is advertised *as* as STUDENT show. We're a college town- there is a lot of student theater, student dance recitals, student cabaret singing performances, student tai chi demonstrations- if a student does it, pretty much assume there will be a public demonstration at some point, advertised to the public to garner interest. It can actually be good marketing for the studio.
Advertising it as just a show with out that big "student" caveat= not such a good idea & I strongly discourage it- but I think it is perfectly fine to let students loose in public with that student caveat/label on.

Originally Posted by Lara L

I agree with the second half, but not necessarily with the first- I think it is fine to advertise a student show, as long as it is advertised *as* as STUDENT show. We're a college town- there is a lot of student theater, student dance recitals, student cabaret singing performances, student tai chi demonstrations- if a student does it, pretty much assume there will be a public demonstration at some point, advertised to the public to garner interest. It can actually be good marketing for the studio.
Advertising it as just a show with out that big "student" caveat= not such a good idea & I strongly discourage it- but I think it is perfectly fine to let students loose in public with that student caveat/label on.

There are certainly exceptions to my statement, I was making a generalization. There are certain events that are open to a lot more people than just the performers even though they feature students. For example, a party for a dance studio that has a lot of students, but only a couple will be performing. Or large festivals like Rakkasah, which are open-level and draw in many more dancers than just those performing.
In those cases, the money coming in from ticket sales to non-performers often covers the costs of running the event, so performers should not be required to pay.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

There are certainly exceptions to my statement, I was making a generalization. There are certain events that are open to a lot more people than just the performers even though they feature students. For example, a party for a dance studio that has a lot of students, but only a couple will be performing. Or large festivals like Rakkasah, which are open-level and draw in many more dancers than just those performing.
In those cases, the money coming in from ticket sales to non-performers often covers the costs of running the event, so performers should not be required to pay.

thanks for clarifying- I am constantly brainstorming creative ways to make dancing actually pay for itself & support the community- I do have a list of shouldn'ts- some basic rules I stand by no matter what- but I am cautious of using the word shouldn't when there may be something worthwhile to explore- it's one of my trigger words- sorry!

In the UK we almost always have to pay to go to at haflahs, whether performing or not. Sometimes performers get a discounted rate, more rarely it is free. Tickets are usually between £5 and £10 depending on whether food is included or not.

For our city's end of year class party (organized by one teacher, attended by many others), all students pay $5. Teachers don't pay.

The theatre rental is $800-1000 so with all students paying (and one reason is, because they're performing only once....they then sit down and watch the rest of the show, hence taking up seats....) the show basically breaks even and we all get to perform in a nice theatre with dressing rooms and lighting and the audience gets a nice recital.

I do think there's other ways to do this kind of show but for the price of a large latte I don't think many people are going to ***** about it.

A $25 ticket on the other hand...I would not be down with that.

I think it's a simple matter of ****ty economics, unfortunately. Where I live the only people who go to haflas are belly dancers. And it does cost money and time to put one on. If students and other performers pay nothing, then the organiser is the only person paying, and given that a hafla is a labour of love it's not fair.

Like Kashmir I agree that when it's a show with tickets for the public, then yes, performers should not pay. In some cases they have to, though, in the form of "must sell one ticket" or something similar, because again, audience = belly dancers. I'd prefer it if performers did not pay and in fact *were* paid but most BDers don't have the budget for that...