Thread: vertical chest circles: do you have a preference?

When I say "vertical chest circle", what I mean is that the upper body is extended up, then to the side, then down, then to the side, in either a clockwise or counter-clockwise direction.

In our classes our teacher differentiates between a chest circle done in a "flat" vertical plane, like a clock face, and a chest circle we call for convenience "Nourhan's chest circle", which has a chest lift (from the sternum) at the top. The chest lift gives an "eccentric" feel to the circle, since the chest tilts somewhat with the extra lift.

Have you done both of these? Do you prefer one over the other, or have another variation you like better? Or do you not really care for the vertical circle?

Just wonderin'. I've been playing with these and thinking about how they are used.

Think different effects can be achieved depending on where the "1" count is on the "clock", and how fast the chest travels around one half of the clock face.

I do them both and like them both, but prefer the vertical circle. I don't lift from the sternum though... I lift from the upper back.

I've done both types of circles, but primarily the horizontal ones in Egyptian/Oriental dance but have found that by and large tribal and fusion dance will tend to utilize the vertical circle more.

Of course, that's just *my* experience. I'm sure someone will report just the opposite! ..l;,

Personally I don't like either. Screams "stripper" or "lap-dancer" to me.

Originally Posted by Afrit09

Personally I don't like either. Screams "stripper" or "lap-dancer" to me.

Ribcage circles scream "stripper" to you? How so? It's a pretty universal move in belly dance, whether done horizontally or vertically. I'm just curious because this is the first time I've ever heard anyone express such an opinion.

I dun't like chest circles at all. ..l;,

They don't say anything to me, I just don't really like them and don't use them in my repertoire. I'm just much more of a chest lift/drop accent kind of chick. I'm perfectly happy watching them in a performance, they're just not "me".

I dont like to see them over used, one after another like a class room drill, but when used well to move energy to the top of the torso, they can be very beautiful.

Originally Posted by anala

I dont like to see them over used, one after another like a class room drill, but when used well to move energy to the top of the torso, they can be very beautiful.

Agreed... in some cases (tribal improv) there will be two or three in a row, but when I choreograph or do solo improv it's one and then on to the next move, please.

Originally Posted by mihri

Ribcage circles scream "stripper" to you? How so? It's a pretty universal move in belly dance, whether done horizontally or vertically. I'm just curious because this is the first time I've ever heard anyone express such an opinion.

Actually I hardly ever see them in belly dance (except as part of an undulation - front to back) - unless as a joke. Lifts and drops, yes - but not circles.

Interesting. I see dancers use them pretty regularly. I find it eternally fascinating how different dancers experiences go.

Your answer still doesn't address why you think the move looks stripper-like though. I'm truly curious as to why you would think this.... unless you're picturing the super fast tassle twirlin' circles. When I see bellydancers use them, they tend to be slow or medium speed and, as I said above, used sparingly.

I like elliptical chest circles. I think, especially as part of a taxim, they are very yummy. Done slowly, with emotion, they can add a lot of dimension to a piece.

I don't do true verticals often. I then to think they are a little boring.

{{{HUGS}}}

I love chest circles. They can be done quite tastefully, especially in a drum solo with a shimmy....

As in this drum solo with Aziza...

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http://youtu.be/94bNNMBL_FU

ok maybe this will work...

I've been taught four different chest circles: flat and parallel to the floor (x-plane), flat and in line with the body with no intentional front-back movement (y-plane), front-back circling with no side movement like the top half of a full-body undulation (z-plane), and the angled one that has the lift in the front but uses the same side/front/side/back motion as the first one (x-plane is no longer parallel to the floor). Sometimes this last one is rolled tightly around the body with very little outward movement, like the difference between a tight Egyptian hip circle and a big Turkish one. Personally, I think the looser version of the fourth style of chest circle is the most natural looking, and that's usually the one I'll do, but I really don't use them that often.

Originally Posted by mihri

I've done both types of circles, but primarily the horizontal ones in Egyptian/Oriental dance but have found that by and large tribal and fusion dance will tend to utilize the vertical circle more.

Of course, that's just *my* experience. I'm sure someone will report just the opposite! ..l;,

Actually... I don't think chest circles are really that big a part of Egyptian style, but when they are, it's not the big, horizontal ones. Egyptians tend to do their moves tighter and close to the body as a general rule (with the obvious exception of the big, bending-over Dina hip circles). Tribal dancers usually do the more outward, exaggerated moves. I'm not that familiar with ATS, but I thought they had all three of the single-plane circles in their vocabulary, and maybe also the fourth one. ITS does all four, though.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Actually... I don't think chest circles are really that big a part of Egyptian style, but when they are, it's not the big, horizontal ones. Egyptians tend to do their moves tighter and close to the body as a general rule (with the obvious exception of the big, bending-over Dina hip circles). Tribal dancers usually do the more outward, exaggerated moves. I'm not that familiar with ATS, but I thought they had all three of the single-plane circles in their vocabulary, and maybe also the fourth one. ITS does all four, though.

All I know is what I have done in my own experience. The first ribcage circle I learned with my Egyptian teacher was a horizontal circle, but they're not big... just horizontal. Other ribcage circles followed, of course. After studying tribal (Improv and Fusion choreography) for 10+ years I can tell you that the majority of the tribal dancers and teachers I've experienced have done predominantly vertical circles, with the exaggeration you talk about being on the lift, very rarely pushing forward with the chest for a horizontal circle.

I have the 4 Tourbeau mentioned in my vocabulary, but I don't think I really do any of them all that often. The fourth one is probably the closest to what I will do when I'm actively thinking about it.

As for Egyptian technique -- a lot of instructors teach what I would call "Egyptian Technique" but that doesn't necessarily represent 100% what the actual Egyptian dancers are doing. Sometimes it's a safety thing. I've learned some things from Aida and from watching Randa that I don't think I want to try to actually TEACH that way because it's too easy to mis-communicate.

Although I don't necessarily consider them "stripper" moves, I think the big circles put a LOT of attention on the breasts, especially when they are very strongly isolated out from hip movement. To some people this can read a little too aggressive for their taste.

Originally Posted by aziyade

As for Egyptian technique -- a lot of instructors teach what I would call "Egyptian Technique" but that doesn't necessarily represent 100% what the actual Egyptian dancers are doing.

I totally agree with this! This is why I qualified my posts with an "in my experience" disclaimer. Not everyone has the same experience. I have the four Tourbeau mentioned too, but I thought the original poster was questioning about the horizontal and vertical circles with side to side motion rather than the ones that are more... centered? That's why I didn't address them.

At any rate, yes.... it's dance. It's a YMMV art, really.

Originally Posted by mihri

Ribcage circles scream "stripper" to you? How so? It's a pretty universal move in belly dance, whether done horizontally or vertically. I'm just curious because this is the first time I've ever heard anyone express such an opinion.

I wouldn't go as far as to say "scream stripper" - but it isn't something I would say it was "universal" either. Rotating the ribs/chest does bring thre breasts into the spotlight - and as it is not a "natural" move ie you need quite a bit of work to teach people to do this I'd suspect that "look at my breasts" is the key element rather than a natural response to the music.

It may depend on style. My experience is mainly Egyptian and upper torso work is less common and chest circles very rare. Certainly in 15 years of workshops with Egyptian teachers none have ever included one. (I'm sure someone will find a clip of an EGyptian dancer using one - but it is the exception rather than the rule) I believe they are more common in Turkish styling.

Originally Posted by mihri

The first ribcage circle I learned with my Egyptian teacher was a horizontal circle, but they're not big... just horizontal. Other ribcage circles followed, of course. After studying tribal (Improv and Fusion choreography) for 10+ years I can tell you that the majority of the tribal dancers and teachers I've experienced have done predominantly vertical circles, with the exaggeration you talk about being on the lift, very rarely pushing forward with the chest for a horizontal circle.

I do teach circles - but for improving flexibility - not to use in dance. Maybe the hint is at the end "tribal (Improv and Fusion choreography)" - in my experience many tribal people are playing around with jazz styled dance rather than belly dance. In Jazz we used to do a lot of rib cage work - partly because it was "sexy" and partly because it was "freaky". Maybe that is the link with stripping as in its extreme some of the jazz really gets down and dirty.

Back when I first started dancing, I was told that the larger (i.e., near-maximum extension on side-to-side slides, and a big push forward) could be Turkish or Tribal. This was pre-ITS and pre-YouTube and at that time, there were a lot of dancers who thought they were doing "pure Egyptian" when they were actually doing AmCab, and a lot of students who wanted to do Tribal but were simply making it up as they went along after watching a few FCBD tapes. There was a lot more confusion then if you lived off the beaten path. People were basically teaching on second- or third-hand recollections of what somebody saw on a video or learned at an out-of-town workshop.

I have a memory of being taught the large, flat chest circle with a big layback as a Tribal move, but that doesn't mean they never had a lift to the front of it or did it without the backbend. We also had a move called "coffee grinder" where you had a chest circle (angled or flat) and a hip circle (also correspondingly angled or flat) going simultaneously and 180 degrees out of phase--I heard that one labeled "Egyptian," "AmCab," "Turkish," and "Tribal," depending on who did it. I'm not sure who originated the exaggerated compass-point isolations (where you hit side, front, side, back without attempting to smooth out the transitions), but there seemed to be a consensus that this move was "not-Egyptian," so sometimes it ended up wearing the "Tribal" tag (although I can't recall ever seeing a tribe actually do it). I suspect it may have been Turkish originally, but as I said above, I was learning these moves at a time when things were very muddy and it was common for someone who wanted to be Style X to say that any move they didn't do was Style Y.

Originally Posted by kashmir

It may depend on style. My experience is mainly Egyptian and upper torso work is less common and chest circles very rare. Certainly in 15 years of workshops with Egyptian teachers none have ever included one. (I'm sure someone will find a clip of an EGyptian dancer using one - but it is the exception rather than the rule) I believe they are more common in Turkish styling.

I had a chance to study with a native Middle Easterner who does a lot of modern Egyptian style, and she sometimes layers the fairly small, lifted chest circle with the knee shimmy. It's not a move she uses excessively, though. I can't find the clip at the moment, but I'm also thinking somewhere on YouTube, there's a clip of Nagwa doing a coffee grinder in a fringe monster.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I have a memory of being taught the large, flat chest circle with a big layback as a Tribal move, but that doesn't mean they never had a lift to the front of it or did it without the backbend.

Ah... this sounds more like what we call a "torso twist" or "torso rotation." I've seen some dancers do it with a "front" of the circle and a layback and never cared for that technique.... way too big. When I first learned this move there was the layback, but no forward movement... think more of a "D" shape than a true circle. Later on I learned a different technique that saves the lower back by replacing the layback with an extreme ribcage lift, such that the upper back arches back, not the lower.

i teach "flat"horizontal, to men , "in front"vertical, to women...i tell them their nipples are chalk and to draw an oval on the mirror

Originally Posted by zamora

i teach "flat"horizontal, to men , "in front"vertical, to women...i tell them their nipples are chalk and to draw an oval on the mirror

LOL that's exactly how I teach the "clock face" circles.

I don't see these as stripper moves at all - rather they help transfer energy from lower to upper torso and are a part of undulations and shoulder and arm moves. They can also be cut apart and used as angular moves/accents and also combined into figure 8's/spirals.

Of course chest lifts and drops of course those are useful too but they're different movements, more staccato. But what they really are in my mind are aspects of circles, they're elements of circles is all.

I think, given that traditional clothes didn't feature bras and/or nudity it's kind of silly to assume these moves were created to draw attention to the bosom in a "bad" sense. That's just how the dance is, it features torso movements! So - what is wrong with bosoms anyway?

If you watch Bobby Farah's "Rare Glimpses" you see a group of Bedouin dancers in long dresses doing upper torso work - side to side thrusts are very prominent - of course those are part of the circle move - it's totally authentic. The moves in this case were more angular than the soft full circles but that's why we teach the circles - both as movements in and of themselves and so they can be used in fragments, smooth or rough and/or to accent lower torso moves/transfer energy.

Example with the circle parallel to the floor: this can be used as part of, in transition to/from or accenting a hip circle. These can be cut apart too so you're only using part of the arc - for example slide to the side, dip back, swing the shoulders left, then back right, then back and into a full upper torso circle then push the weight down into the hips and do a hip circle. Or, the upper torso circle goes in opposition to the hips - etc.

These are very useful moves, I'd say they're very important.

Forward and backward circles are part of spinal undulations so of course they are critical.

I drill my classes with all five chest circles and make sure they know the difference between all of them - vertical, horizontal, elliptical, forwards & backwards - how they can flow into each other or to and from other moves. We also drill them standing and walking depending on the level of the class.

Also make sure they understand that use of chest circles is more Western influenced because Egyptian style mostly allows the chest to "ride" over the focus of the lower body.

Originally Posted by Bellybabe

I drill my classes with all five chest circles and make sure they know the difference between all of them - vertical, horizontal, elliptical, forwards & backwards - how they can flow into each other or to and from other moves. We also drill them standing and walking depending on the level of the class.

Also make sure they understand that use of chest circles is more Western influenced because Egyptian style mostly allows the chest to "ride" over the focus of the lower body.

Sorry, forwards and backwards? How are those different than vertical/horizontal/elliptical?

Originally Posted by tigerb

Sorry, forwards and backwards? How are those different than vertical/horizontal/elliptical?

Here's how I interpreted it:

Vertical: Chest goes up/down, left/right, but doesn't move forward/backward (with relation to hips).

Horitzontal: Chest goes left/right, forward/backward, but doesn't move up/down.

Elliptical: Cross between vertical and horizontal, like Saturn's rings. Incorporates all three dimensions.

Forward/Backward: Chest goes forward/backward, up/down, but not left/right. I'm not sure which she means as forward and backward. One is often used as beginning of the skeletal undulation. The other (moving the way a car's wheels spin) isn't really used on it's own from what I understand, but drilling it can help with the movement of the reverse undulation.

Did I get that right?

Originally Posted by Alexa

Here's how I interpreted it:

Vertical: Chest goes up/down, left/right, but doesn't move forward/backward (with relation to hips).

Horitzontal: Chest goes left/right, forward/backward, but doesn't move up/down.

Elliptical: Cross between vertical and horizontal, like Saturn's rings. Incorporates all three dimensions.

Forward/Backward: Chest goes forward/backward, up/down, but not left/right. I'm not sure which she means as forward and backward. One is often used as beginning of the skeletal undulation. The other (moving the way a car's wheels spin) isn't really used on it's own from what I understand, but drilling it can help with the movement of the reverse undulation.

Did I get that right?

That makes heaps of sense, thanks!

Originally Posted by Alexa

Forward/Backward: Chest goes forward/backward, up/down, but not left/right. I'm not sure which she means as forward and backward. One is often used as beginning of the skeletal undulation. The other (moving the way a car's wheels spin) isn't really used on it's own from what I understand, but drilling it can help with the movement of the reverse undulation.

The front/up/back/down (back-rolling) circle is the top half of the full-body camel. The back/up/front/down (front-rolling) circle is more for building technique. When done repeatedly (continuously looping), the second style is good for imitating an animal trying to throw up, but otherwise, yeah, the up-and-over part is pretty much limited to a one-off reverse undulation/body wave/chest accent, and not much else. Collapsing down through the torso to get around the bottom half of the circle just isn't particularly attractive to watch as a repetitive motion.

Originally Posted by Alexa

Here's how I interpreted it:

Vertical: Chest goes up/down, left/right, but doesn't move forward/backward (with relation to hips).

Horitzontal: Chest goes left/right, forward/backward, but doesn't move up/down.

Elliptical: Cross between vertical and horizontal, like Saturn's rings. Incorporates all three dimensions.

Forward/Backward: Chest goes forward/backward, up/down, but not left/right. I'm not sure which she means as forward and backward. One is often used as beginning of the skeletal undulation. The other (moving the way a car's wheels spin) isn't really used on it's own from what I understand, but drilling it can help with the movement of the reverse undulation.

Did I get that right?

Yes you did!