Thread: Self-Taught or Not?

I've been thinking lately about the number of people I've met or come across who are mostly or entirely self-taught. Some of them have won competitions or are respected teachers in their communities, or have become sought-after stars in other ways.

We also constantly discuss the importance of training by actual teachers. My question is, when so many people can win competitions or become teachers, is the self-taught method such a poor one? Do we continue to discourage the self-taught path?

As with all things, there are people who have a natural affinity for this dance and who can (with a proper amount of exposure) learn to dance. This does not mean that self-study is an effective means of learning for most people. To use an example from another discipline, I know a woman who has an instinctual understanding of higher mathematics. She was able to test out of nearly an entire university mathematics program. She is published and well-respected as a researcher. Does that mean that anyone can learn the way that she does? Not at all. She is an exception in her field. Dancers who are self-taught and wildly talented are exactly the same. Most people need long years of study to rate a PhD in mathematics. Most people need long years of study to be a fantastic dancer. The fact that there are rare exceptions does not invalidate the learning process that everyone else goes through.

One of the problematic items about some self-taught dancers is that some of them are unable to teach/explain their art because they 'just do it' and haven't learned how to explain it to others. Another issue is that of safety in movement. Classrooms are where most people learn how to teach and learn safely to prevent injuries in performance.

Another thing to remember is the question of what actually constitutes self-taught. If a person was surrounded by the dance growing up, then they aren't actually self-taught - they may not have learned in a standard classroom, but they had teachers in all of their family members.

Some dancers are prodigies. Some are able to learn simply by watching. That is fantastic for them. The problem arises when a *lot* of students think they are the exception. For every never-had-a-class performer out there who is amazing, there are legions of never-had-a-class dancers who are terrible (but who might become fantastic with proper classes).

Self-study in addition to standard classes would be the most effective for the most number of students. Nothing is wrong with pure self-study, but for most people, it will be a long, frustrating journey that could have been eased by having a teacher/mentor.

I don't think I know a single person who could truly be called "self-taught". For me, GENUINELY self-taught would mean you had absolutely never attended a class or a workshop with a real live teacher.

I'm one of those dancers whose lineage you really can't trace - because I was a prodigious dance wh0re and went to multiple classes with multiple teachers pretty much from the start, every workshop I could possibly attend, bought DVD's out the wazoo, stalked through Bhuz, and so on and so forth.

Personally, I'd be really surprised if what I would term a self-taught person made a big name for themselves (because a lot of that requires a helluva lot of grunt work in event and workshop attendance to BE SEEN), or won ay big competitions. Do you have any examples of such people? It would be interesting for me to see.

I'm in a bit of an isolated backwater at the moment, and I've had a few little enquiries about the dance lately (hope springs eternal! Yay!) - I've strongly encouraged every single one to avoid buying anything in the way of DVD's until they have seen a real live teacher AT LEAST ONCE. Some self-teaching is perhaps a necessity in these more isolated places, but I still feel it's incredibly limiting, and risky in terms of potential injury.

My question is, when so many people can win competitions or become teachers, is the self-taught method such a poor one?

I don't know from competitions but any fool can call themselves a belly dance teacher. Doesn't mean they're necessarily any *good*.

ETA: Giving this some more thought, I think you can't escape context here. Forty, fifty years ago there were BDers who were effectively self-taught. They had other dance training, which cannot be overestimated. And while they might not have had formal lessons, they danced for critical audiences to live music six nights a week, three shows a night, forty minutes a show, FOR YEARS. Who today is doing that? Any dancer of that vintage who was not good would not have been working in the mid-70s when there were many more dancers who *were* trained to some degree, and then went out and danced six nights a week three shows a night forty minutes a show FOR YEARS.

In subsequent years more training in real BD became available, and the jobs dwindled. Today, I don't think it's a stretch to say that all working, famous BDers do some teaching, and outside the ME world most of them would do a LOT of teaching. Teaching would be the way they make their living, more so than performance. Because there is very little paid performance work out there any more. Nobody is regularly dancing six nights a week three shows a night forty minutes a show any more.

The level of competition for teachers in particular is MASSIVE. And the market is ever more discriminating. The whole "oh I just taught myself" schtick will not hold water any more and it will particularly not hold water in any place where there are a lot of highly trained dancers out there teaching. Maybe for beginners in a very isolated place. But otherwise, no. I'd *really* like to know who these successful teachers/comp winners are who've never had a lesson.

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I think 'self taught' is a tricky term to use. You cannot teach yourself something you do not know.

In a way we are all self taught, meaning we are all in charge of our own learning.
How we do that and what access to resources we have is a different matter.

Most people prefer some level interactive learning as sharing and relection is part of the valuable learning process. Forums can play a huge part of the sharing and reflective process in terms of integrating or testing out and relating theory with practice.

'Monkey see monkey' do is how most of us learn practical aspects of life... dance is usually passed on within it's own cultures in this way.

However, professional development of any kind usually requires a little more than absorbing cultural progression and development. Even top dancers in the ME have had some level of interaction and critical learning.

Self analysis/assessment and openess is an essential part of development, this is not a skill that everyone has.

CFoxDance, you're a lovely dancer. I'm glad that you are now taking classes as that will help to ensure that you are dancing for a long time!

Another example of a self taught dancer would be Zaheea of San Diego.

I don't think there is a way that anyone would be able to spontaneously pick up dancing without SOME exposure, but I think it's safe to say that someone who learns solely from videos can be called self taught. I'd also caveat that to say that someone who dances WELL from having learned from that medium is self taught, -v- someone else whose execution of the dance is atrocious (for clarity) both of the people above are wonderful dancers who are highly skilled.

I agree that the very term self taught can be ambiguous if not downright misleading, in many cases. I did start with an instructor, but she only taught a certain basic level, and after that I was on my own. How I wish I had other instruction available, I could have picked up certain things a lot faster! As it was, I considered myself self-taught, in that I really had to figure out a lot of things on my own, apply information from other training in different disciplines, etc, BUT that means I have a huge list of influences and people I have learned from, even if they were not actively teaching me. My education is very cobbled together, but I did not make up any of this stuff! I have run across a few dancers who do claim just that, and to talk to them, you'd think they invented dance itself, which I think is just foolishness, but hearing people say they are self taught could lead to that misconception. I have honed both my dance craft and my teaching skill over many years by doing my own research, as well as attending workshops when & where I can, and honestly, I can tell you where I picked up every move, nuance, attitude and concept- I think it makes for a rich experience I can pass on to my students. but I wouldn't turn my nose up at someone who was able to say 'I am a disciple of teacher x'- I would have done just about anything for that experience at a certain point in my career!

Maybe this is a regional thing? I don't think I've ever come across a non-native dancer who was entirely self taught and who was competition worthy and in demand as a teacher outside of their local area. I've met dancers who took some lessons (laid their beginner foundation) with a teacher, exhausted the local possibilities, and self taught after that point. I've met dancers who were self-taught and became "big" fish in little ponds or who made a business for themselves by aggressively marketing to non-native audiences with very low expectations (i.e., the "she owns a costume so she must be good" crowd), when they wouldn't have been very competitive in a larger market. However, I think it's much more likely that if a student has never worked with an in-person teacher, it will be difficult for them to rise above mediocrity. Actually, if you look at the population of workshop-quality teachers, the vast majority of them have not only studied with a dance mentor in this field, but they've also trained extensively in another dance form, which filled in gaps our educational system doesn't generally excel at teaching (body lines, choreographic theory, stagecraft, etc.). You have to possess an incredible amount of natural talent, body awareness, and discipline to self-propel yourself to greatness. That's pretty true, even if you live in an area with what would be considered halfway decent teachers.

Kina - Thank you:) However as a result of where I live I am still not taking classes. I do get to workshops when I can afford it, am able to and the instructor is of interest to me. I'm not sure what you meant by " that will help to ensure that you are dancing for a long time". I am assuming you meant injury wise? I have never had a dance related injury. In fact from the workshops I have been to I feel that proper warm up and stretch are often grazed over. Fortunately I studied Nutritional and Nutraceutical Sciences at university which included human physiology courses etc and the riding background has helped. Everyone who does any physical activity is responsible for learning/knowing when to push them-self and when to back off:)

I agree largely with what Caroline_afifi said. She made some excellent points.

I deleted my above posts because personally I HATE admitting that I am "self taught" because a lot of the time it changes how people perceive you and can create bias when it comes to objectively looking at the dancer.

CFox didn't you say you're only two hours from Toronto ... there is fantastic teaching there, go whenever you can!

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

CFox didn't you say you're only two hours from Toronto ... there is fantastic teaching there, go whenever you can!

Yep:) But I am approx 2 hours North and I live in what is referred to as the "snow belt" which means we frequently get buried in snow:( lol So its very hard for me in the winter months to commit to travelling into the city due to the weather. Much easier to commit during the summer. In good weather when there is traffic it can take me just about 3 hours to get to arabesque. City traffic is ridiculous.
I taught a workshop at Arabesque this past August and they were interested in me teaching a monthly workshop but I was hesitant to commit due to the roads/weather and decided maybe next spring, summer fall, I would discuss it more with them. Also would love to get that set up that way I could make plans to hopefully get a private lesson before or after my workshop as I really loved the one Roula Said workshop that I got to go to and would love to take some private lessons with her. Hopefully that works out for next year:)

Originally Posted by CFoxDance

Kina - Thank you:) However as a result of where I live I am still not taking classes. I do get to workshops when I can afford it, am able to and the instructor is of interest to me. I'm not sure what you meant by " that will help to ensure that you are dancing for a long time". I am assuming you meant injury wise? I have never had a dance related injury. In fact from the workshops I have been to I feel that proper warm up and stretch are often grazed over. Fortunately I studied Nutritional and Nutraceutical Sciences at university which included human physiology courses etc and the riding background has helped. Everyone who does any physical activity is responsible for learning/knowing when to push them-self and when to back off:)

I agree largely with what Caroline_afifi said. She made some excellent points.

I deleted my above posts because personally I HATE admitting that I am "self taught" because a lot of the time it changes how people perceive you and can create bias when it comes to objectively looking at the dancer.

Not necessarily, what I'm referring to is cumulative injury that occurs over time with movements that are not necessarily safe for you body.

Sorry you deleted your posts. I enjoyed reading them and watching the clip. I'm now confused as to why you posted them at all if you hate saying you are self taught?

Originally Posted by kina

Not necessarily, what I'm referring to is cumulative injury that occurs over time with movements that are not necessarily safe for you body.

Sorry you deleted your posts. I enjoyed reading them and watching the clip. I'm now confused as to why you posted them at all if you hate saying you are self taught?

:) Ahh makes sense.

It was an impulse. And hate is probably too strong of a word, but I try to avoid it and typically won't bring it up unless I'm directly asked. Part of me feels that it shouldn't really matter how someone learns something so long as they are steadily progressing. And it personally doesn't bother me that I am self taught. Everyone has to find what works for them. But much of the time people's reaction to my dancing is altered by hearing that I am "self taught". Whether it is before or after they see me dance. I realized after I posted it that I wasn't comfortable with putting all that info out there. If that makes sense I guess it seemed like an okay idea at the time, but hindsight said otherwise lol.
My apologies for the "flip-flopping"!

Originally Posted by mahsati

As with all things, there are people who have a natural affinity for this dance and who can (with a proper amount of exposure) learn to dance. This does not mean that self-study is an effective means of learning for most people. Most people need long years of study to rate a PhD in mathematics. Most people need long years of study to be a fantastic dancer. The fact that there are rare exceptions does not invalidate the learning process that everyone else goes through.

Self-study in addition to standard classes would be the most effective for the most number of students. Nothing is wrong with pure self-study, but for most people, it will be a long, frustrating journey that could have been eased by having a teacher/mentor.

Wonderful post, Mahsati!

I'm one of those people who was exposed to the dance at a relatively early age -- I have a good affinity for "hearing" music and (at one time) I must have been good at absorption by osmosis, since that's basically how I learned to dance initially. Mom was taking lessons, teaching and performing when I was about 9 years old and continued until her complete "retirement" 30-35 years later. So I was around the music alot, went with her to some of her own lessons (altho I couldn't always be in the same room), was around some of her practice time (most of it done when we kids were in school), accompanied her to classes she taught (again, I couldn't usually be in the same room) and then, beginning in my early teens, I was her assistant at many of her gigs.

But I never had a formal lesson until many years after I started dancing professionally.

[And please understand that I do not in any way place myself in the "WOWZA dancer" category. Not by far. Good dancer, good entertainer, good teacher. I know my stuff. I am not insert-name-of-fave-dancer-here, but I'm good at what I do.]

I had some involvement in theater, alot of involvement in choral groups, a love of high-brow orchestral music, particularly of the baroque style, and an interest in dancing of all types, so nuances in music, staging in general, and an understanding of what makes decent choreography (especially for a group) were not great leaps for me.

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Being a member of Tonya & Atlantis' professional dance troupe definitely enhanced and confirmed what I already knew as well as taught me a bunch of valuable new stuff. Taking workshops has done the same. I still have taken but a very few full sessions of group lessons, but I usually pick up good teaching tips from those, even if I don't usually learn completely new moves; having my behind kicked into high gear in classes has definitely been a fantastic positive.

And, of course, Bhuz has been a very enlightening and energizing place for learning and sharing.

I'm very certain I'd have been a better dancer sooner had I taken lessons, although I don't know how much better I would have been in the long run. *shrug* And I'll never know. [Well, I think my posture would be less of an issue today had I taken lessons from someone with a very firm hand (or stick!) about it.]

More to topic, yes, I believe those with a very high natural affinity and good exposure to dance (observation of live dancing and work with DVDs) can essentially learn to dance very, very well. But, I think group lessons and privates are truly necessary for the vast majority of us in the West, especially if we want to teach some day.

Deborah

It is generally true that most students lack the natural talent and discipline to train themselves to a high degree of proficiency in isolation, but it is also generally true that many lack the talent and discipline to be great, even under the best academic circumstances. Working with good instructors is a tried-and-true way to maximize your potential, but the world is full of dancers who have studied with the best teachers and invested thousands of dollars in workshops and videos, but years later, they're still not much better than they were at the one-year mark.

Education can be a source of pleasure and a means to its own end, but when you are trying to learn about a foreign culture (and some styles of our dance require amassing more background information than others), doing so without the help of someone with expertise does make the job more challenging. Only a handful of students in any given Arabic Language program will approach native-quality proficiency, and the subset of students who want to learn Arabic but can teach themselves to that level without ever having personally interacted with a fluent speaker is even smaller. The same idea is true for the language of dance. "Speaking" music like a native is not easy to learn alone.

On the other hand, the thing about creative endeavors is that there will always be a few people who are so gifted that lots of training doesn't buy them much, because those things that make them so wonderful are pouring from their heart, head, and soul. It's who they are--what they learned simply refined the presentation.

People mean different things by "self-taught".

I was surprised recently to read that a dancer I know described herself as self-taught. I know for a fact that she has learned from and interacted with many amazing dancers. I think what she means, however, is that she has self-directed her dance education, as opposed to being in some kind of dance program that has been organized by a school or director. She never studied with any one teacher for an extended period, she was never anyone's protege, and she has the ability to learn fast from limited learning environments; for example, she can pick up and incorporate into her dancing a significant amount of technique and other elements from a workshop.

By this definition, I am also self-taught.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

It is generally true that most students lack the natural talent and discipline to train themselves to a high degree of proficiency in isolation, but it is also generally true that many lack the talent and discipline to be great, even under the best academic circumstances. Working with good instructors is a tried-and-true way to maximize your potential, but the world is full of dancers who have studied with the best teachers and invested thousands of dollars in workshops and videos, but years later, they're still not much better than they were at the one-year mark.

yes, very true. I very rarely pay much attention to how many years people have been dancing and who with..as it can mean very little.

Education can be a source of pleasure and a means to its own end, but when you are trying to learn about a foreign culture (and some styles of our dance require amassing more background information than others), doing so without the help of someone with expertise does make the job more challenging.

And add to that the amount of vast mis-information out there and differences in experiences of one culture and it's dance scene.

Only a handful of students in any given Arabic Language program will approach native-quality proficiency, and the subset of students who want to learn Arabic but can teach themselves to that level without ever having personally interacted with a fluent speaker is even smaller. The same idea is true for the language of dance. "Speaking" music like a native is not easy to learn alone.

I would say it is impossible? I have never formally learned a language (probably not even English! lol) but hearing the language and absorbing it is so important.

On the other hand, the thing about creative endeavors is that there will always be a few people who are so gifted that lots of training doesn't buy them much, because those things that make them so wonderful are pouring from their heart, head, and soul. It's who they are--what they learned simply refined the presentation.

Yes but there are also another category of people who are excellent at immitation but feel nothing.
Nothing to do with dance, but my husband often repeats whole sentences of my Russians friends conversation with her daughter. He does it as a joke but he manages to convince my friend that he can actually speak Russian... he merely memorizes the phrases and repeats them with military precision and accuracy. His father spoke 6 languages fluently, I guess this sort of thing is genetic.

ETA: Giving this some more thought, I think you can't escape context here. Forty, fifty years ago there were BDers who were effectively self-taught. They had other dance training, which cannot be overestimated. And while they might not have had formal lessons, they danced for critical audiences to live music six nights a week, three shows a night, forty minutes a show, FOR YEARS. Who today is doing that? Any dancer of that vintage who was not good would not have been working in the mid-70s when there were many more dancers who *were* trained to some degree, and then went out and danced six nights a week three shows a night forty minutes a show FOR YEARS.

BINGO!!!!!

I dont think we can assume that Egyptian dancers were 'self taught'.

From the time of nightclubs in the 20th Century, Egyptian dancers were like young apprentices and still are. They worked under the awalim (and still do) who took their basic abilities, developed them and taught them the tricks of the trade. Some blossomed into stars, others carved lucrative careers for themslves and others simply retired due to a variety of reasons.

Of course, but I think Brea is talking about Western dancers.

I think it's a lot easier to be a decent self-taught dancer today than it was 10 years ago. Between youtube, bhuz and other forums, informative websites, dancer blogs, and the thousands of DVDs out there (which are easy to buy no matter where you are thanks to the internet), a new dancer today (self-taught or not) is exposed to a lot more information in a lot less time and with a lot less effort than dancers were a decade or more ago.

With that said, people learn differently and some people do better than others on their own. However, regardless of how good you are at teaching yourself and learning by watching, you will likely hit a point at which these resources are not enough. You will hit a point at which you have insatiable curiosity about things those readily available sources do not cover. You will need to travel, you will need to study, you will need seek out people who know more than you.

Even before hitting that point, any self-taught dancer who is outstanding right now could be even more outstanding if they had a teacher, or better yet, a few teachers. Not everyone needs one special mentor to spoonfeed them everything they need to know, but everyone who wants to be the best they can be has something to learn from those who know more and are better than them. And no matter who you are, there is someone out there who is better than you.

for me, I find it hard not to struggle with certain aspects of this.

This field is so vast with so many strands, how do people find the right path, and what is that based on?

How are we supposed to know what the right path is?

How do people here do that? what was your path based on?

For me the path has been very easy, because I fell totally in love with Egyptian dance, and that's all I've ever wanted to do. Along the way, I've been lucky enough to find the teachers that I needed at that point in my dance life. I've also been an avid collector of video/dvd footage of the dance that I love, and I've learned from watching performances by the dancers I love (and those I don't!). For me it has always been about wanting to dance Egyptian with the least English accent I possibly can.

Of course I cannot say I have been self taught at all, because I've been to many *many* classes and workshops. I will always gratefully acknowledge *all* the teachers I have had. But for the majority of my dance life, my learning has been self-directed, to favour the path *I* wanted to follow.

Hi Bea,

But did you have someone close to you at the time who told you where to look and who to watch ect? I am wondering how people find their path without any form of guidence and what draws them.

For me it was always about Egyptian dance but I strayed off the path on more than a few occasions. Sometimes that was about being mis-informed or not enough info, and sometimes it was about what was attracting me at that time.

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

Hi Bea,

But did you have someone close to you at the time who told you were to look and who to watch ect? I am wondering how people find their path without any form of guidence and what draws them.

Oh sure, like I say, I don't consider myself self-taught at all. I've had TONS of teachers. But once I knew what I wanted to dance like, it was a case of recognising the teachers who could help me with that. The important thing was *first* to know what I wanted in my own dancing.

And nowadays, I know enough about the Egyptian dance scene, and the Egyptian teaching scene, that I can find stuff out, and there is bhuz where I can find out more, and I have good dance friends, including internet friends (my imaginary friends- lol) who recommend teachers or videos or dancers to see. The more I've taken control of my own learning, the more I've found out about *how* I can learn.

I'm sure it's the same for those whose path is clearly Tribal, or Tribal Fusion, or Turkish, or whatever. Once you know what moves you, and thrills you, and what you love dancing, then it's so much easier to find ways of learning *that* and the more you learn, the wider your network of knowledge spreads itself. The problem is for those people who haven't got that clear path shining its way forward, or those who see many different paths, and haven't chosen which they want to follow, because they don't have a focus for their learning, and then it becomes difficult to know what is working for them.

Yes, I totally understand what you are saying.

I have people who come to me for privates (as many teachers do).

I always ask in advance for an action plan of what they want from me exactly. This helps both of us in terms of what to focus on, from this other area's/needs may arise.

I wonder how people who are 'self taught' get feedback on their actual practice and how this in turn affects their progression and development.