Thread: Pigeon Toed Student

Do any of you have advice on working with students who are pigeon toed? A person I know with significant medical knowledge told me that he thinks pigeon toes occur when a person is born with hips that turn in. I'm not sure whether I should suggest that this student try to have more of a turn out of the feet, like ballerinas strive for. She is trying so hard, and having great difficulty belly dancing. Thanks all!

Originally Posted by hourglassbellydance

Do any of you have advice on working with students who are pigeon toed? A person I know with significant medical knowledge told me that he thinks pigeon toes occur when a person is born with hips that turn in. I'm not sure whether I should suggest that this student try to have more of a turn out of the feet, like ballerinas strive for. She is trying so hard, and having great difficulty belly dancing. Thanks all!

Oh, I've had a couple of students with pigeon toes, one of whom is very talented in regard to music - her problem is much less severe than the other woman's but it is very hard for a person to dance with even slight pigeon toes.

I've tried in both cases to work for a turnout, not like a ballerina per se because that is so extreme, but at least to get the heels touching instead of the toes.

The thing is, balance is also affected as well as hip movement - so working on the feet is critical.

I think it's a long range project, don't know how it will work out or if the entire structure of the hip/leg is affected or not - I suspect it might be.

These two students have caused me to be more aware of leg and foot issues in general - we spend so much time on body movement in oriental dance - rightly so because that's the core of the dance - perhaps we tend to pay insufficient attention to legs and feet.

I have begun asking students not to wear skirts in class so I can see what's going on - bad feet/legs will just make it darn near impossible to dance especially once people start moving across the floor and/or turning.

Well I've been scanning some articles - apparently there are ranges of severity, some do affect the hips/femur and ballet has been known to help in some cases.

Interestingly this is common in very young children but most people grow out of it.

As I say I think this is a matter of patience for teacher and student because I haven't seen a quick fix yet.

I am fairly pigeon-toed, but I find it to be a plus rather than a minus. My natural foot posture is turned-in, but I can intentionally turn out if I choose to. The bonus is that my range of motion in the hip is much greater than most. I can keep my feet forward and turn my hips a full 90 degrees each direction.

Unless you are trained in some discipline of orthopedics, and this student is consulting with you professionally as a patient, I think there is a malpractice liability in doing too much suggesting about posture corrections to someone with a musculoskeletal deformity. Toeing inward can be the result of all sorts of problems, some of which are more correctable than others, and forcing a student to adopt a turnout may make things worse rather than better. When a student has a body issue that puts her out of the range of "normal," I think the responsibility of correction shifts from the dance teacher to the student and her treatment team. In other words, the student should take it upon herself to schedule a consultation with the orthopedic specialist of her choice to learn what physical adjustments are within the safe range for her body. If she has already been studying for a while, she probably has a good idea of what her mobility needs are as a dancer, and should discuss that during the consultation. (I haven't met an orthopedist/chiropractor/PT yet who was fully familiar with MED in practice, but they've all been open-minded and willing to understand what I wanted to be able to do.) From here, the student can explain what she is or isn't capable of with you, and your responsibility in class simply becomes to remind her, "Suzy, remember your posture," rather than trying to help her correct what is likely a congenital defect affecting multiple joints.

I'm pigeon-toed. My legs and my feet are naturally turned in, but through years of physical therapy, yoga, and dancing this is no longer as apparent as it used to be.

I have never suffered any injuries and although I am not the most naturally graceful and coordinated person in the world, I have never had any issues with belly dance.

When traveling though, I do have to be conscious of my feet, and remember to turn them out slightly, otherwise they will turn in, which is aesthetically unappealing. Demi-pointe is also a problem due to this issue combined with my bunion issue, but I am overcoming it through practice and by strenghthening my feet.

Depending on how far outside the "normal" range she is, it might be best for her to seek a specialist as Tourbeau has mentioned. In my case, I have not sought anyone and I have not even seen an orthopedist or physical therapist since I was a young girl, but I may be doing so soon, because as I advance in this dance (and ballet) I am putting more pressures on my body.

Message Kashmir. She has done a lot of work on this issue.

But what I can tell you is that if your student's turn-in is due to the rotation of her legs in the hip sockets, she may not physically be able to turn out from the hip. And you mustn't encourage her to turn out unless she can turn out her whole leg. She might be able to crreate turnout from her knee down, but that will just torque her leg, and one day.... sproing ow lasting damage. Lasting damage bad.

Suhaila Salimpour started life pigeon toed and there are oldschool US bders who dance pigeontoed on purpose. She will be able to achieve some movements well, just not others.

(Hi Zumarrad!! - cross posts)

I have about 5 degree of natural turn out in my hips and over 80 degrees of turn in (I can reach and hold 90 for a long time). Therefore my neutral position is turned in. As this is due to the configuration of the head of my femur and positioning of the hip socket this cannot be really corrected - and attempts to get me to turn out can cause more problems - as it is has to come from the lower back, knee or foot.

I would be a disaster in ballet but most belly dance is okay. We use turn out infrequently. I am able to easily get all those squishy moves that use a hip turn in.

Problems arise when I do Reda style workshops with all those turns, direction changes, arabesques etc. My lower back takes up the slack and after 5 hours it gets a little tight. After a couple of days I hit the physio.

About the only thing that that helps with my turn out (ie getting closer to not turned in) is relaxing my glutes and stretching the muscles around the hip joint - this needs to be shown one-on-one in person with a qualified person.

I strongly agree if this student wants help - or if she is considering doing more than a hobby class once a week - that she see someone like a sports med and gets an assessment. Let a proffesional see what is the issue and whether it can be aleviated. Forcing turn out through stretches doesn't always work and can cause damage.

I pay more attention to whether the knees are pointing forwards. For most people that also means feet straight, but I've got students whose feet point out or in somewhat when their knees are aligned properly.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Unless you are trained in some discipline of orthopedics, and this student is consulting with you professionally as a patient, I think there is a malpractice liability in doing too much suggesting about posture corrections to someone with a musculoskeletal deformity. .

I agree! It's much more complicated than a dance teacher should take on - at least one that's not also a doctor. You see toes pointing inward but it could be a deformity of the ankle, knee or hip. It could also be muscle imbalance. It could have been a muscle imbalance from childhood that allowed the bones to grow incorrectly. Trying to "correct" it could cause pain and injury. Let her make movement modification that is comfortable for her and ok with her doc. In the end, we all have to learn to dance with the body we have rather than change it in some cases.

So what you would guys recommend - not even trying to teach such a student before she sees a doctor?

I can see the point of that, for sure -

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

So what you would guys recommend - not even trying to teach such a student before she sees a doctor?

No - but don't force her to turn out (which if she is like me parallel is effectively turn out). Try and keep her knees and feet aligned - if that means she has her toes turned in - so be it. If she wants help suggest a good sports physio (not a GP - s/he'll just refer her if they're any good)

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

So what you would guys recommend - not even trying to teach such a student before she sees a doctor?

For me, I think it would depend on how far away the student was from being able to meet good posture without discomfort. If what is considered reasonably normal posture is painful for her, then I would strongly encourage her to see a doctor, pointing out that a little forethought now could save a lot of misery and expensive medical intervention later. Obviously, it's a complicated situation. If you simply refuse to teach her without a doctor's input, she'll probably just find a teacher with less conscience who will. OTOH, if you knew you had a student who was in the last trimester of a high-risk pregnancy and had been prescribed bed rest, you probably wouldn't have a second thought about refusing to teach her at that time. Teachers should be carrying insurance and having students sign liability waivers anyway, but ultimately it comes down to your and your student's good sense.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

Message Kashmir. She has done a lot of work on this issue.

But what I can tell you is that if your student's turn-in is due to the rotation of her legs in the hip sockets, she may not physically be able to turn out from the hip. And you mustn't encourage her to turn out unless she can turn out her whole leg. She might be able to crreate turnout from her knee down, but that will just torque her leg, and one day.... sproing ow lasting damage. Lasting damage bad.

Suhaila Salimpour started life pigeon toed and there are oldschool US bders who dance pigeontoed on purpose. She will be able to achieve some movements well, just not others.

Yes, I am one of the old school style dancers that pigeon toe on purpose. It helps give me greater hip control and height on many moves.

Originally Posted by norma

Yes, I am one of the old school style dancers that pigeon toe on purpose. It helps give me greater hip control and height on many moves.

Which ones Norma?

Do you dance pigeon-toed all the time or only for certain steps?

My first teacher taught the 3/4 shimmy on the down pigeon-toed. Took a lot of years of dancing and reading to realize that I didn't actually need to do it that way!

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

Which ones Norma?

Do you dance pigeon-toed all the time or only for certain steps?

I do it for a majority of my steps. Pigeon toed and knocked kneed. The three most common ones I can think of are up and down hips, twisted shimmy walk, and side to sides, figure 8's. I basically do it in any move that requires the hip to go front and back, or up and down.

I do it in this clip (up and down hips) at :35, again at 1:00



The side to side at 1:11


Walk at 2:20, hip jumps at 2:36

Those clips make me wanna get up and dance!

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

Those clips make me wanna get up and dance!

They make me want to go on a diet and lose some weight, so I could fit in a costume again, LOL!

I'm pigeon toed, but it wasn't until I started taking lessons with an I Built The Pyramids teacher that anyone said anything about it. So, I took ballet classes, worked with a kinesiologist and a chiropractor. Now my feet point forward unless I'm tired or concentrating really hard on a concept. I'm 6 months pregnant now and as my ligaments start to give, I notice my feet turn in more often. If you can readily tell that the toe turn in originates from, say, curling her toes to keep her high heels on, that might be within your realm. Otherwise, stress the importance of at least being assessed by someone trained in body alignment. Inward turned toes and knock knees can be the result of weak adductors, which will lead to a walker or wheelchair later. We want to be spry, active old ladies, dancing in our nursing homes!

Originally Posted by queencj

I'm pigeon toed, but it wasn't until I started taking lessons with an I Built The Pyramids teacher that anyone said anything about it. So, I took ballet classes, worked with a kinesiologist and a chiropractor. Now my feet point forward unless I'm tired or concentrating really hard on a concept. I'm 6 months pregnant now and as my ligaments start to give, I notice my feet turn in more often. If you can readily tell that the toe turn in originates from, say, curling her toes to keep her high heels on, that might be within your realm. Otherwise, stress the importance of at least being assessed by someone trained in body alignment. Inward turned toes and knock knees can be the result of weak adductors, which will lead to a walker or wheelchair later. We want to be spry, active old ladies, dancing in our nursing homes!

True. I had a sister who had problem with knock knees as a child. She just had weak muscles and to this day, has knee problems Someone who really has a physical problem needs to seek professional advice. I think that is not something the average belly dance teacher can handle. I deliberately do knock knees and pigeon toes but my normal posture is excellent.

I think you should advise your student to seek a professional opinion and not force her do to something that makes her uncomfortable.

My teacher always said that not every dance move is for everyone. If there is something you can't do, or if a move doesn't look good on you, forget it, move on and find something else that does.

Originally Posted by norma

My teacher always said that not every dance move is for everyone. If there is something you can't do, or if a move doesn't look good on you, forget it, move on and find something else that does.

So true for everyone who takes up BD, Norma!

I don't have pidgeon toes, but I was born with a severe form of club foot: no ankle, toeing-in of 90 degrees (along with other structural issues) and a minimum 50% nerve deficit below the knee in the right leg. Fortunately, multiple surgeries over time gave me an ankle formed from the solid bone that was supposed to be the ankle, my foot was properly aligned (as best it can be) and, lo and behold, I miraculously became a professional belly dancer -- who woulda thought?

I have to make all kinds of accomodations in my dancing for the fact that the right leg is short in comparison to the left and quite weak, the ankle has very limited range of motion, and the foot is very flat. I love floorwork, for example, and can teach it . . . but I cannot perform it myself. So I don't. *shrug* (I also simply look goofy in a lean-back posture, so I gave that up many years ago!)

Someone with severe toeing-in is going to have issues with simply keeping his/her feet "out of the way" in turns and some traveling steps and might have difficulty with horizontal backward figure eights and some other movements. But every student can enjoy the dance as his/her body allows. As has been mentioned numerous times in this thread already, someone trained in orthopaedics or similar is the only one qualified to help a student with outside-the-norm body mechanics/anatomy limitations.

However, if we give our students a good basic foundation from which to work, and with help from a professional in the medical field, I think many students can figure out how to make the accommodations necessary for their enjoyment and success in this dance.

Vive la Difference!

Deborah