Thread: Push against the floor or pull from the waist?

How do you teach basic hip isolations, like hip lifts?

I originally learned to lift the hip by contracting at the waist. Over the years I've collected other ways of doing this, including specific instruction from Yasmina Ramzy, who said to NOT use the waist muscles, but instead to push against the floor with the legs.

For a while, it seemed that "Egyptian" style meant pushing against the floor, but now I'm seeing that instruction as coming from the Reda and folkloric companies and not necessarily from the Egyptian Sharqi artists themselves.

So which way did you learn it, and how do you teach it? In your experience, is there a particular way that tracks more authentic to a specific culture or school?

I teach both, I call one a weighted lift, and the other an unweighted lift. They look and feel different, but both are useful.

the important thing is just to avoid unnecessary wear on the hip joint. if you do some moves, like the hip bump, from the leg there is a danger that you'll forget to properly support it/contain it with your other muscles. for me personally this creates hip pain. i teach and do movements from the torso and glutes, i also tell students that so long as it doesn't cause injury/pain it's not wrong (but to be careful because sometimes pain is the result of cumulative action, rather than one time injury)
so long as the movement isn't stopped by pushing the joint to it's jamming point i don't see a problem, although i prefer the torso originating moves and feel like that is important to oriental dance.

I also teach both, but call one a Hip Lift (lifting the hip into the waist with the obliques) and the other a Hip Push (pushing the hip up with the leg).

I teach and use the Hip Push in my intermediate level classes and above only. I believe that beginners initially need to learn to use their torsos to create the majority of their movements, otherwise not only will they just use their legs, they won't learn the very important skill of isolating muscle groups to get them to work the way a dancer wants to use them!

With the Hip Push, I still stress the need to control/support the movement with the torso, as raqFariha mentioned.

As to how I learned it originally? I learned to dance by watching my mom dance (and a bit as she taught) and I think I did more "pushing" than "lifting" in my early years. For the past couple of decades, I use the Lift the majority of the time and use the Push more for accents and variation.

As to which is more culturally "authentic?" I don't know the answer to that, but I've understood that a more torso-generated movement vocabulary tracks a bit more with the Egyptian style, especially as it relates to close-to-the-body, internalized, stylization. I could be completely wrong.

Deborah

I too teach both - they just give a different feeling and effect. The one from the leg is more "up" and the one from the torso is more "in" if I put it very simply. As for which one is "more closer to its roots", I am not sure. Farida Fahmy once said in her workshop that the Egyptians (as in people in general, not Egyptian dancers) would dance whatever feels more comfortable to them. For my body it is easier to generate it from the leg, but I am not sure what is more comfortable for an average Egyptian

I was taught to lift from the waist (and leave the leg unweighted) but I have subsequently learned to push up through the floor too, and what I think is important is that my body already knows how to support itself and lift the hip without the extra layer, as it were, at the root. The longer I have been dancing the more I do stuff with my legs, but that's not to say nothing is going on in the torso as well.

I find the concept "stabilize against floor" helpful. I don't "push up" in knee oriented fashion, nor do I use obliques etc.
So, I guess my answer to the op is "neither of the above". lol

*sighs*

I was involved in a convoluted discussion about this just the other day. IMO they are two different moves, as some have described. The pushing up/weighted version I call a hip bump (FWIW)- push up with feet, and use your thigh muscles to stop the movement *way* before you reach the extent of your range - you can develop this by using the buttocks to 'catch' and crisp the movement. It's really important to have soft knees for this and not to let them lock out when executing the move.

Some of the people I discussed this with executed the same move (from their POV) by dropping one hip (the 'unweighted' one).

The other movement is what I call a hip lift - ie, using the torso muscles to pull the hip into the waist.

I don't think either is more authentic, and I think they both result in quite different movements. But of course, you can combine the two to create a ........ (fill in the blank)

I was originally taught that you knew you were doing a hip lift properly if you could do it weighted, or unweighted with the unweighted foot off the floor, so I guess that translates to the torso-actuated camp. For some reason, I want to associate the push-through-the-floor method with dancers who've studied with Raqia. Honestly, I don't use the push-down method much as a stand-alone step, but I can feel it creep into my hip lifts sometimes, in the same way that I might lift my heels off the floor when I'm doing a vertical eight for emphasis. I could do it one way or the other, but I usually do the style I learned first and then drag the other one in when I want to add a little more flavor.

I guess one could argue that they're really two different moves. The push-down style emphasizes a tightening of the lower, knee end of the thigh, where the torso style is more in the upper, hip end of the leg. I assume that they're both authentic, but the older style is simply older, just like the hip-driven shimmy is just as valid as the modern knee-driven style. If you look at the hip-lift sequence Souheir Zaki is doing around the 0:53 mark here, I can't imagine from how lightly she's tapping her foot on the floor that she's pressing down much, but the torso-actuated style would be consistent with a dancer who does a lot of that kind of hip work (e.g., her signature downs). Then again, she makes everything look so deceptively effortless, maybe she is doing it the other way.

Interesting observations.

Does anybody study with Yasmina Ramzy? I'd really like to understand why she advocates pushing against the floor (and NOT using your waist muscles) so much.

BTW she calls it a hip isolation, and she teaches it both as a sharp "bump" and as a softer "lift," but she says to push against the floor to accomplish it.

Using the waist by default. Pushing against the floor as a different move - not to beginners.

Originally Posted by anala

I teach both, I call one a weighted lift, and the other an unweighted lift. They look and feel different, but both are useful.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Does anybody study with Yasmina Ramzy? I'd really like to understand why she advocates pushing against the floor (and NOT using your waist muscles) so much.

BTW she calls it a hip isolation, and she teaches it both as a sharp "bump" and as a softer "lift," but she says to push against the floor to accomplish it.

If I had to make a guess, I'd say that Yasmina's use of the push-from-the-floor technique is due to her close association with Aida Nour. Aida Nour was a member of Reda Troupe for many years. Which brings us back to the use of that technique by those who were inspired by Reda....

I personally prefer to teach the "pull from the torso muscles" technique of hip lifts, particularly at the beginner level. There are several reasons for this:

• Being in this dance for 30 years, and being someone who gets a lot of mail from dancers asking for my advice, I've become aware that the push-from-the-floor technique can cause various types of pain. There's torquing-the-knee pain, foot pain, and ankle pain, all potential outcomes of this technique if done improperly. Can it be done safely? Yes, of course it can be done safely! But beginners generally don't have enough body control and awareness to do it safely. So I think it's better to teach the "pull from the torso" technique at the beginner level.
• I teach my beginners that one major factor that differentiates belly dance from other dance forms is that it focuses on what the torso muscles do, rather than focusing on what the arms and the legs do. Therefore, any technique I teach at the beginner level should be consistent with that statement. I may know of exceptions, but I don't teach those exceptions to beginners. I want to keep their focus on torso-articulated movement so that when they create their own dances their default choices will be truer to the nature of belly dance.
• I want my students to begin developing strength and control in the torso muscles. Using leg muscles to drive movement will let the torso muscles be lazy. Torso strength and control will help not only with hip lifts & drops, but also with every other hip articulation they are also learning. And, as we all know, there are many, many health benefits to developing & using core muscles, so why not incorporate those health benefits into our classes?

I usually don't teach the push-with-the-foot method unless I'm teaching Reda-style dancing. And then, when I do that, I talk about how Reda-style dancing actually isn't the same thing as belly dance, it has drawn much inspiration from Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly, etc. Ie, it draws inspiration from a culture whose dance forms contain huge amounts of travel steps and lots of arm/leg action, very little torso focus.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

If I had to make a guess, I'd say that Yasmina's use of the push-from-the-floor technique is due to her close association with Aida Nour. Aida Nour was a member of Reda Troupe for many years. Which brings us back to the use of that technique by those who were inspired by Reda....

I would guess that you're right, now that you point it out. And it is what I has considered a Reda or folkloric thing because that was the only place I saw it.

THANKS!!

Hi there,

I have been dancing with Yasmina and Arabesque for about 7 years now and I teach for her at her studio as well. We do teach the push from the floor technique for the most part, but we also teach certain movements that require isolation from the hip/waist. All the teachers at Arabesque always stress proper execution of the "push" step to avoid/prevent injury in students. I believe that part of the reason we teach the push before the pull version is that most new students over-pull and end up crunching with their ribcage as well as hip which has a very stiff and jarring effect (I'm simplifying the explanation here, but I think you'll understand what I mean). You should email Yasmina or find her on facebook and ask, I'm sure she wouldn't mind explaining further :)

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I usually don't teach the push-with-the-foot method unless I'm teaching Reda-style dancing. And then, when I do that, I talk about how Reda-style dancing actually isn't the same thing as belly dance, it has drawn much inspiration from Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly, etc. Ie, it draws inspiration from a culture whose dance forms contain huge amounts of travel steps and lots of arm/leg action, very little torso focus.

really?? I find it hard to believe that no belly dancer ever pushed from the knee until Reda came along with his style of the dance... that just doesn't seem right to me.

Originally Posted by MellyBelly

really?? I find it hard to believe that no belly dancer ever pushed from the knee until Reda came along with his style of the dance... that just doesn't seem right to me.

Agreed! Pushing from the floor is a natural way of accenting upward hip movements, I'm sure it is traditional; it's just too logical to be otherwise.

Look at it another way: it's a natural partner to the "basic Egyptian" or as it was called in the Dark Ages chiftitelli step - ie "step and lift" - which is ubiquitous across the world of Oriental Dance.

Lifting from the core, as Anala points out, looks and feels different. As exercise it conveys obvious benefits including balance and core strength - but it's a different step and one transitions in and out of it completely differently; ergo, it doesn't work as well with many step combinations and transitions; I'd say it may be the less natural movement.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

Lifting from the core, as Anala points out, looks and feels different. As exercise it conveys obvious benefits including balance and core strength - but it's a different step and one transitions in and out of it completely differently; ergo, it doesn't work as well with many step combinations and transitions; I'd say it may be the less natural movement.

Wait, what? Why would pushing v pulling make any difference in how you are transitioning and what other steps would go with it?

With a push, you have weight on the step, obviously. But I can certainly accomplish a "pulled" lift with weight on the leg as well. But with the pull, I can also do it unweighted.

I'm looking at this in the mirror now, and I see for the pull you can use the side waist muscles or you can use the front and side (or more front central, I guess.) The latter gives a more internal look, but the former looks very close to the push against the floor, when the pushing foot is close to the body.


Melly -- thanks for your input!! I think I will email Yasmina about that! :)

Originally Posted by MellyBelly

really?? I find it hard to believe that no belly dancer ever pushed from the knee until Reda came along with his style of the dance... that just doesn't seem right to me.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I think Reda-trained dancers are the *only* ones who have ever done the "push" technique. I find it quite likely that there are many who use it whom I just haven't seen. I absolutely would NOT say that it's incorrect to use the "push" technique, I'm just saying I prefer the core-driven one myself.

But of the non-Reda-trained Oriental-style Egyptian dancers that I've seen on video, at the moment I can't think of one who uses the "push" technique. I'll be the first to say that I have not seen every dancer who ever lived, or even every dancer who ever was recorded on video. But I can only teach what I have learned through my own study, and from what I've observed myself the "push" technique tends to be associated with Reda-influenced dancers.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I think Reda-trained dancers are the *only* ones who have ever done the "push" technique. I find it quite likely that there are many who use it whom I just haven't seen. I absolutely would NOT say that it's incorrect to use the "push" technique, I'm just saying I prefer the core-driven one myself.

But of the non-Reda-trained Oriental-style Egyptian dancers that I've seen on video, at the moment I can't think of one who uses the "push" technique. I'll be the first to say that I have not seen every dancer who ever lived, or even every dancer who ever was recorded on video. But I can only teach what I have learned through my own study, and from what I've observed myself the "push" technique tends to be associated with Reda-influenced dancers.

Ok I see what your saying, thanks for the insight.
I just found it strange because I went and looked at videos of the old stars dancing after reading this thread and saw Naima Akef, Suheir Zaki, and Mona Said (just to name a few) all use push steps, as well as using lifted/pulled hip steps.

I did one class with Yasmina (workshop) and she taught a really nice combination of a drop down at the waist and push up at the same time, which once achieved gives a really lovely "chunk". And is harder than you'd think - I can do both, but at the same time? Not every time!

Legs are bloody useful and I think we actually need them in ME style BD more than we've been told. While we don't show off our legs - we don't lift them high and frame them and do fancy things with them - we use them a lot. That's not to say our torso muscles are not working too.

I agree with Kashmir (as I would!) that beginner dancers benefit from a lot of focus on using the muscles in the torso, because they're generally not aware of them. I am very glad of all the torso-focused teaching I got for so many years.

Ayizade asks why it would make a difference doing transitions, if the hip was pulled up or pushed up, since externally the step can look the same.

Well as to the latter - looking the same - yes and no. There are several variations of the push step that are maybe not even possible to do just using core muscles - example of the strong accent steps with the foot pushing strongly out to the side - you can see these in films of ghawazee but also in Turkish dance. And, there are push steps done with the foot/leg in different positions, ie foot/leg to the front, side, rear, in various combinations.

Now, transitioning from any of these to the other hip is one thing if you are (example) using the right hip and leg - the weight transfer will be altogether different - than if you have virtually all your weight on the left leg and are using core muscles only to lift/manipulate the hip. Try it! it feels altogether different and you flow into and out of various other steps differently -

Plus, shimmy combinations feel different depending upon where your weight is and how you are using the "working" leg. It's hard to describe without actually showing/telling, I apologize, but there is a difference and it especially comes into play when you are combining lifts with travels, switching the emphasis from one hip to the other, going into and out of circling moves and spins and also shimmies.

I do agree with Zumarrad that both legs and core are really important, so teaching and practicing both types of movements that outwardly look similar helps develop very different muscle groups, plus balance and weight shifts that are just not the same given one technique or the other.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

I did one class with Yasmina (workshop) and she taught a really nice combination of a drop down at the waist and push up at the same time, which once achieved gives a really lovely "chunk". And is harder than you'd think - I can do both, but at the same time? Not every time!

I'm trying to visualize what's happening in that. The waist is lengthening down, but you're pushing AGAINST that stretch by straightening the leg against the floor - ?? Obviously I'm not understanding. Or are you saying the left side of the waist stretches down and the right leg pushes against the floor? That I can picture.

Legs are bloody useful and I think we actually need them in ME style BD more than we've been told.

I've collected a variety of suggestions to use the legs when dancing, but it's never phrased like "Use your legs to do this." It's usually "tighten the adductors," or "pop the hamstring" or something like that.

When teaching beginners, I think it's best to focus on the "pull from the waist" method. Teaching how to isolate the hips by explaining what should be happening in their core muscles is more useful to beginners than telling them to lift their hip by pushing against the floor and straightening their legs, because it will give them isolation awareness, control, and versatility in their moves once they have drilled enough.

I believe that if the student isn't taught this way, they will not gain much range of motion in their isolations, and their movements will look stiff and unimpressive.

Once the student is able to isolate their hips without "using the floor," it is important to teach variations that are dependant on the floor. Changing foot and leg placement, shifting weight, etc.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

Ayizade asks why it would make a difference doing transitions, if the hip was pulled up or pushed up, since externally the step can look the same.

No, actually I'm asking why how it's accomplished would affect Transitioning and what other steps go with it. I acknowledge that especially the abdominal-based lift using the front abs has a more "frontal" than "side" look to it.

I think we're talking about two different kinds of movement here, though.

There are several variations of the push step that are maybe not even possible to do just using core muscles - example of the strong accent steps with the foot pushing strongly out to the side -

I'm not sure what the "push step" is, but if you're talking about taking the leg out (either to the side or extending front or back) and making an outward "bump" to the side, that's not what I'm talking about or what Yasmina is doing. That movement has a more up and out quality than the basic lift, or what she calls a "hip isolation."

Now, transitioning from any of these to the other hip is one thing if you are (example) using the right hip and leg - the weight transfer will be altogether different - than if you have virtually all your weight on the left leg and are using core muscles only to lift/manipulate the hip. Try it! it feels altogether different and you flow into and out of various other steps differently -

Maybe I'm not visualizing this properly, but the only things that should affect transitioning are weight placement, body angle, and extension, and since we don't have to deal with extension (or really the body angle) we're left with weight placement.

I'm trying to visualize how a step like "step-hip" or Basic Egyptian or the step-touch with hip lift on the touch (whatever we want to call it) would vary in weight shift depending upon how you achieve the lift. You can step on the left foot, push against the floor with your right foot, but at some point that push is released, and the weight removed from the right foot, shifting back to the left for a brief second before returning to the right foot for the next Step part of the sequence. (I've never seen anybody maintain the weight on the right while stepping on it to form the other half of the step. When I do this it looks very stiff and Frankenstein-esque and feels very un-natural.)

As to how it looks, I guess this gives a slight (almost imperceptible) sort of "rock" to the step that isn't there with the abdominally-driven version unless you deliberately add it.


Melly -- I'm watching the Mona Said workshop video from Turquoise (where she's in the garish leotard and tights) and I'm not seeing the pushing against the floor in her demonstrations. I see the lengthening of the hamstring sometimes, but it's not near the quality of (for example) Raqia Hassan's pushing against the floor. I have a feeling we may all just be talking about different things.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Melly -- I'm watching the Mona Said workshop video from Turquoise (where she's in the garish leotard and tights) and I'm not seeing the pushing against the floor in her demonstrations. I see the lengthening of the hamstring sometimes, but it's not near the quality of (for example) Raqia Hassan's pushing against the floor. I have a feeling we may all just be talking about different things.

yes, I think I might have been thinking of another movement. Its so hard without seeing a visual. So the movement is just called "hip isolation" on Yasmina's video? which video? I'm sure I have it around the house and can take a look and then compare it to what I am seeing in other videos.

*ETA sorry, went back and read the thread over, I think I was confusing the original question with other posts made down the thread. I could try to explain again but I think it would be better to go to Yasmina with the question, I don't want people to think I'm putting words in her mouth :P

Originally Posted by aziyade

I think we're talking about two different kinds of movement here, though.
I have a feeling we may all just be talking about different things.

I was just imagining everyone who is writing here being in a room together and demonstrating.
It would be such fun & educational - it would be all about "O now I see what you mean!" and, "Cool, I like how you make that movement!", and "I was taught like this, how about you?" with a lot of "Ah ha! s" & "O let's see that again!", and "Nice!"
Kudos to everyone for trying to put this all into words!
As fer me, well, what I try to do is demonstrate how a hip can lift. By legs/knees, weighted, unweighted, specific muscle contraction, or little strings ().
And that there are a few different schools of Belly Dance styles with varying types of movements for some things.
And that a "hip lift" depends on what type or intent of hip lift you want;
but that it basically will involve some sort of muscle contraction combined with leg work to get the hip to lift.

Originally Posted by LiesaB.

I was just imagining everyone who is writing here being in a room together and demonstrating.
It would be such fun & educational - it would be all about "O now I see what you mean!" and, "Cool, I like how you make that movement!", and "I was taught like this, how about you?" with a lot of "Ah ha! s" & "O let's see that again!", and "Nice!"
Kudos to everyone for trying to put this all into words!
As fer me, well, what I try to do is demonstrate how a hip can lift. By legs/knees, weighted, unweighted, specific muscle contraction, or little strings ().
And that there are a few different schools of Belly Dance styles with varying types of movements for some things.
And that a "hip lift" depends on what type or intent of hip lift you want;
but that it basically will involve some sort of muscle contraction combined with leg work to get the hip to lift.

Exactly. LOL! This is so almost impossible.

Darn it Ayizade - you don't live that far away - I wish you could come visit and we could hang out in the studio for a few hours!

Meanwhile let me try and think of a better way to explain in words!

hmmmm.

LOL

I know -- and the thing is, on probably most of these questions, all it would take is one little demo and we'd all be like "OHHH yeah -- okay, we call that a fillintheblank."

Add to that the idea that we don't always know exactly what muscles we're actually using and what percentage of the "force" is being supplied by them. I tend to forget the adductors completely because I don't usually feel any "burn" or overuse symptoms from using them.

AND we're not all built the same way and we don't all have the same visceral experience when using certain muscles. I love the feeling of engaging my lower abs, so I try (subconsciously I think) to use them as much as possible in any kind of movement.


Melly -- it's the Movement Foundation dvd/vhs where she teaches the "hip isolation" and I think it's one of the first 5 movements or so. It's early on in the tape.