Thread: Required to take the workshop to perform in the show

Is it standard practice to require dancers to take the associated workshop if they want to perform in the show?

I thought this was the case but a few people seem put off by it. I just wanted a quick survey on the matter.

Unless, you are and personaly invited by the event organizers, I think it's a standard pratice. It's done in my area (Montreal, Qc, Canada).

Originally Posted by ScarletDancer

Is it standard practice to require dancers to take the associated workshop if they want to perform in the show?

I thought this was the case but a few people seem put off by it. I just wanted a quick survey on the matter.

It makes perfect sense to me to have the workshop students perform. Katia of Boston has gone even further and had only people who have studied with the teacher (in this example, Yousry Sharif) perform in the showcase as a tribute to the teacher.

As a workshop student, I love watching people that I've just spent some time with dance.

If I were organizing, i would limit the show to only workshop students because I think it's a nice reward for your hard work.

Studying bellydance is at least as important performing. Supporting the event by taking class shows serious interest in having events continue. Without sponsors receiving such support events usually cease. The dancers that chose to forgo taking class and only want to perform could sponsor their own shows. Sponsoring shows is not an inexpensive challenge, usually workshop and show events are much more expensive. In this economy the challenge is even more evident.

Originally Posted by Qamar60

Unless, you are and personaly invited by the event organizers, I think it's a standard pratice. It's done in my area (Montreal, Qc, Canada).

This. In my areas (Florida before, North Carolina now), it is a standard practice for workshop shows to have 3 kinds of performers: workshop instructors, invited guest performers, and selected workshop participants.

[Edited to add:] When there are two shows (on a Friday/Saturday), the Friday show generally has more workshop participants and the Saturday show has more instructors and invited guests. This is not always the case, but it has been that way at almost all of the workshop shows I have attended.

It seems fairly standard practice to me as well. I can see possibly inviting some "name" dancers, but for the most part I think that one of the best aspects of having a show associated with a workshop is to showcase the dancers who have been working so hard in the workshop classes.

I voted Yes but the group I am active with doesn't do this. Members of the organization perform monthly throughout the year without pay. Revenue collected at the shows, which are popular, is used to sponsor workshops with bigger shows twice a year. In this case members who dance in the workshop show have usually already contributed to the group by performing in the monthly shows. The Board of Directors are all volunteers as well.

That said, I would still support the idea of requiring performers to attend the workshops. Some workshop instructors do require this - when Karim Nagy was here, he required it of the dancers who got to perform drum solos with him in the evening show. It shows respect for the teacher and for the event, I think.

It only makes sense around here. Workshop fees are used to pay the instructor, and without the workshop fees there would be no workshop and thus no show.

Perhaps a good way of asking someone to come dance is wording it like so:

"We'd love for you to join us in the workshop with XYZ this weekend. We know it will be educational and fun for all levels. Workshop attendees are encouraged to dance in the evening show and we'd love to see you and your friends join us!"

That way it doesn't sound like an invite to dance, but rather an invite to come share in the whole weekend package.

It's certainly what I'm used to. Lately here in New England we've had some hafla events where a short (1.5 hours) workshop was offered with a local teacher, but the hafla itself was the main event and anyone could perform. Now you have me wondering if this is confusing to baby bellies...

Originally Posted by kina

As a workshop student, I love watching people that I've just spent some time with dance.

If I were organizing, i would limit the show to only workshop students because I think it's a nice reward for your hard work.

I agree - isn't this part of the point of the show? To celebrate the work you went through together?

I tend to look at it in reverse- we have a limited number of spaces for performers in a workshop-related show. As a courtesy to the folks who have invested the time, energy and money in the whole weekend, we offer them first dibs on performance slots. I really don't think we have anyone who goes to the workshops just to secure a place in the line up! It may seem like nitpicking with the words, but I think this attitude does make a difference!

There have been times when we have had open slots for performance groups not attending the workshop, and we have been grateful for the other local dancers willing to come out & help make the show a success. I rather enjoy not performing every once in a while!

That's definitely standard practice. If it's a two-day workshop, in my experience you're usually required to take one day of it. The organizer is not required to do me the favor of providing a showcase for my dancing without some investment from me in exchange. It also sends the message that the workshop is the main event, as it should be. The training is the full meal, performing is the dessert, or maybe the cherry on top of the dessert.

(I'm hungry.)

Also, if the organizer makes exceptions for certain invited guests, it's not my business to complain about it. This happens, and people often do grumble, but as long as the exceptions are limited in number I think the grumbling is in bad taste.

So we're not talking about a festival-type event, right?* Instead, we're talking about an event where people take a workshop (or several workshops) during the day; separate from the workshop(s) is a show featuring the workshop teacher(s), any workshop attendee who wishes, and perhaps other dancers who can sign up to dance after the workshoppers have secured their spots.

Deborah

*"festivals" are events like Rakkasah (East and West), Cairo Caravan, Belly Dance Intensive (not sure of this event's format) and similar: open stage, no auditions, all-level dancers, etc.

Originally Posted by Suzana

The organizer is not required to do me the favor of providing a showcase for my dancing without some investment from me in exchange.

Amen.

Deborah

I've seen a lot more cases where those taking the workshop are given first choice at spots, but paying for a workshop not actually necessary.

When I did it, I though of it more as saving a spot for people who were already coming to the workshop. 1 trip, 2 things. When it all worked out in the end, some people in the show took the workshop and others didn't (as well as those who took the workshop who just watched the show)

Originally Posted by resullivan

I've seen a lot more cases where those taking the workshop are given first choice at spots, but paying for a workshop not actually necessary.

When I did it, I though of it more as saving a spot for people who were already coming to the workshop. 1 trip, 2 things. When it all worked out in the end, some people in the show took the workshop and others didn't (as well as those who took the workshop who just watched the show)

I see this more at the really big workshops, like with the Egyptians, where local professional dancers (who are themselves workshop instructors) perform, but maybe only come to the various shows and maybe one day of the workshop.

For small one-instructor workshops targeting a limited region of students, the only way for them to financially survive is to sometimes offer the "carrot" of performing, but we're also usually talking non-ultra-professional dancers (or at least pros who aren't traveling workshop instructors themselves) and most of them seem to understand the need for workshop attendance.

Originally Posted by aziyade

"We'd love for you to join us in the workshop with XYZ this weekend. We know it will be educational and fun for all levels. Workshop attendees are encouraged to dance in the evening show and we'd love to see you and your friends join us!"

That way it doesn't sound like an invite to dance, but rather an invite to come share in the whole weekend package.

I like this!!

I don't think it should be a requirement per say to take the workshop, but I think etiquette-wise you should. It is all about how you word it, and I think the above example is great!

Originally Posted by dunyah

...when Karim Nagy was here, he required it of the dancers who got to perform drum solos with him in the evening show...

Well, and this makes sense as the dancer and the drummer both contribute to making each other "look good." He's gotten to know the dancers a little in the workshop and can easily asses their dance level, therefore play appropriately for them. Also, it guarantees at least a base level of understanding of what it's like to dance with a live drummer, so it makes it more pleasant for him.

Yes, it's a standard practice to have a show following a day of workshops with a guest teacher, and to require that people pay for and participate in the workshop if they want to perform in the show.

And sometimes, some ways, it can be painful. Say it's an event in your local area and your friends are in the show and you'd love to be in it with them, but:
You're broke and can't pay for the workshop
or
The workshop is something in which you just have no interest. Like for a hypothetical example, I would rather get a pointed stick in the eye than spend 4 hours learning, say, a hip-hop bellydance fusion choreography.

And this probably bothers me more because I'm older, but sometimes it's like this: Drive 2-3 hours to the venue. Take 4 or 5 hours of class in a day. Rush to procure a meal and wolf it down, then back to the venue, put on make-up and change into costume, all in an unreasonably short period of time. Then the show, then pack up and drive 2-3 hours again to get back home; then remove make-up before going to bed at 1:00 am or 2:00 am or whatever it is. Then feel like hell all the next day because I'm so exhausted. And yes I keep doing these things. I'm crazy.
Rosette

A lot depends on what the organizer sees as the function of the show.

The primary function, of course, is for everyone to see the workshop instructor applying the skills she taught in the context of a performance.

Beyond that, often an important function of the show is to help the organizer break even or turn a profit (which is usually small).

And then the question is who the organizer thinks will attend the show. She chooses her performers according to who she thinks will come to watch them.

I've been to workshops for which the show was 80% student recital of the workshop sponsor's students (including beginner classes doing their class choreography), and 20% workshop participants. In this scenario, the primary audience was friends and family of the student performers, from the local community. Yes, dancers were in the audience, but we were definitely the minority.

I've been to workshops whose sponsor had built a reputation with the general public for always putting on good shows. In these cases, performers were hand-picked according to their level of performing skill. Although they mostly included ones who attended the workshop, there might be some who didn't. The sponsor's logic was that the needs of the audience should come first, and the audience should get to see performers who were picked with some thought as to what kind of lineup would make a good show.

I've been to workshops who simply required that performers attend the workshop, regardless of their performing skill.

I've been to workshops whose sponsors told teachers, "If you bring 5 or more of your students with you to the workshop, then you may have a performing spot."

Of the above, the most common theme I've seen is that performers wishing to appear in the show should buy a workshop ticket. I can understand that, since sponsors often struggle to bring in enough money to cover expenses and make enough profit to make it worth all the work.

Just wanted to add that in my experience and in my community, the workshops are what bring in money to pay expenses, and the show might break even or lose money, because shows are expensive to produce - you have the rental of the performance space, the sound people, the lighting, advertising, programs, etc.

Just throwing that out to clarify why organizers need all the financial support they can get. Most events, in my experience and community, are lucky to break even.

I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for dancers who generously offer to organize workshops with out-of-town teachers at their own personal inconvenience and expense, only to be pestered by shallow attention-seekers who are just interested in dressing up and getting on stage. Heaven forbid you'd want to learn something from this dancer who's such an expert that she or he was flown in from somewhere else to teach.

If you're the grande dame of your local dance scene and it's a workshop for beginners, okay, you can have a pass, but everybody else, sit back down. I understand that students do not have infinite money to spend on workshops, and sometimes troupe members are pressured to participate in events that aren't their personal area of interest, but seriously... How dare you expect this visiting teacher to supportively sit through your performance when you didn't even think enough of her or him to attend their class? You better be one heck of a dancer to declare yourself worthy of the show roster when you're above going to the workshop, especially when the reason you didn't want to participate in the rest of the event is that this teacher isn't your style.

The fact that students who are not advanced, working professionals would even entertain the idea that they should skip the class, but still be in the show, is a failure of our educational system. Until you get pretty far along in your dance experience, performing is secondary to learning.

here is how I see it:

If it is the organizers policy that you take the workshop to perform, then if you want to perform you take the workshop. simple

If the organizer asks me to perform and I haven't signed up or didn't intend to take the workshop, I don't have to pay and take the workshop. They asked me.

If I sign up for the workshop, and then get asked to perform then I decide if I want to perform. I've actually had organizers give me a discount on the workshops for performing, a very generous gesture.

here is the issue I have with the "if you take the workshop you get to perform!" model - I have been to many workshops that have Gala shows on the Saturday, 99% of them have been advertised as being a professional level show - BUT then because suzy nippletassel (you know, the "professional" that is really a hack job) takes the workshop, her and her student troupe are in the show. And then multiply this scenario 10x...

I'm sorry, but when I am in a proper theater and told I am seeing a professional level show and paying $30+ for a ticket I expect to see professionals... not just anyone and everyone who paid for the workshop. I say this because I have seen it happen many many times...

I love watching students perform, but I want to see it at a student gala or hafla, not at the Gala show which is billed as being a professional event.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for dancers who generously offer to organize workshops with out-of-town teachers at their own personal inconvenience and expense, only to be pestered by shallow attention-seekers who are just interested in dressing up and getting on stage. Heaven forbid you'd want to learn something from this dancer who's such an expert that she or he was flown in from somewhere else to teach.

If you're the grande dame of your local dance scene and it's a workshop for beginners, okay, you can have a pass, but everybody else, sit back down. I understand that students do not have infinite money to spend on workshops, and sometimes troupe members are pressured to participate in events that aren't their personal area of interest, but seriously... How dare you expect this visiting teacher to supportively sit through your performance when you didn't even think enough of her or him to attend their class? You better be one heck of a dancer to declare yourself worthy of the show roster when you're above going to the workshop, especially when the reason you didn't want to participate in the rest of the event is that this teacher isn't your style.

The fact that students who are not advanced, working professionals would even entertain the idea that they should skip the class, but still be in the show, is a failure of our educational system. Until you get pretty far along in your dance experience, performing is secondary to learning.

PREACH ON!!!!!!!!!! God, I love this. Can I quote you to my students?

Seriously, we need this on a poster.

Originally Posted by aziyade

It only makes sense around here. Workshop fees are used to pay the instructor, and without the workshop fees there would be no workshop and thus no show.

Perhaps a good way of asking someone to come dance is wording it like so:

"We'd love for you to join us in the workshop with XYZ this weekend. We know it will be educational and fun for all levels. Workshop attendees are encouraged to dance in the evening show and we'd love to see you and your friends join us!"

That way it doesn't sound like an invite to dance, but rather an invite to come share in the whole weekend package.

I totally agree. Unless personally asked by the organizer of the workshop, attendees should be give the first opportunity to dance at the show. The workshop fees do help pay for the named instructor and incidentals so participation in the workshop should be required to dance in the show.

Originally Posted by MellyBelly

I'm sorry, but when I am in a proper theater and told I am seeing a professional level show and paying $30+ for a ticket I expect to see professionals... not just anyone and everyone who paid for the workshop. I say this because I have seen it happen many many times...

SING IT SISTER!

I do like the model in which there is a workshop participant hafla on one night and the "high quality all pros" show on another. Thoughtful show organizers will put on a shorter show with the best of the best for those willing to pay top dollar to see it.

A show I attended not too long ago required both workshop participation and audition by video. The resulting show featured only about 12 acts despite 80 people attending the workshop. It was among the best workshop shows I've ever seen. There was some grumbling... "well, I've danced in OTHER workshop shows!" ... but those of us who sincerely wanted to see great dancing were very happy.

Originally Posted by ScarletDancer

Is it standard practice to require dancers to take the associated workshop if they want to perform in the show?

I thought this was the case but a few people seem put off by it. I just wanted a quick survey on the matter.

i voted yes...but imo, if the line up has few slots, they should go to those who are a part of the event!..if those who signed up for the work shop are performance shy, then invite others .

Originally Posted by MellyBelly

I'm sorry, but when I am in a proper theater and told I am seeing a professional level show and paying $30+ for a ticket I expect to see professionals... not just anyone and everyone who paid for the workshop. I say this because I have seen it happen many many times...

I love watching students perform, but I want to see it at a student gala or hafla, not at the Gala show which is billed as being a professional event.

I think this is more a truth in advertising issue. The troupe I used to belong to specifically discussed whether we wanted to put on an exclusive, pro level only show, but decided we wanted to focus on community building instead- especially since we do have folks coming from the far reaches of the state, and this is sometimes the only chance they have to perform with us. BUT we advertise it that way, and pricing IS part of advertising. I do get miffed when I have to pay $25-$30 for an amateur show, but I'd happily have paid $10-$15.

Originally Posted by tigerb

SING IT SISTER!

I do like the model in which there is a workshop participant hafla on one night and the "high quality all pros" show on another. Thoughtful show organizers will put on a shorter show with the best of the best for those willing to pay top dollar to see it.

I'd love to see this too, but realistically, in a small workshop in a small community, it's just not going to happen!

Originally Posted by Lara L

I'd love to see this too, but realistically, in a small workshop in a small community, it's just not going to happen!

Oh yes, it definitely depends... I think sometimes a particular workshop draws enough high-caliber dancers and that allows a higher bar to be set for the show. I've been to two Mahmoud Reda workshops, for example, and the shows were spectacular as he drew in some extremely good dancers from a long way away.

Our little club has occasionally talked about sponsoring a workshop + show, but we couldn't afford somebody like Reda. So the associated show would be as you describe, more of a community-building event.

Yes, I agree with the above few posts - it is mostly an advertising issue. Just wanted to throw that out there as something else to think about.

I think it is all up to the organizer, some will require you take the workshop to perform and some won't. To each their own. Any dancers wanting to perform should respect that.