Thread: Copywrite and class material

Hi All,

I know we've had these conversations before but I would be interested in getting updated opinions, considering the increased, and often free, access to all sorts of information related to oriental dance now. Do you think it has changed student's expectations in what they have a right to when paying for your class or workshop?

As a creator of works and a teacher I do admittedly tend towards caution in classes I attend, in that if it is not stated that rights are permitted then I will assume they are not (and I can always ask to clarify). As opposed to the "if they didn't say I can't, then I can" attitude. In workshops I have attended and classes I have taught there seems to be a very wide variation in what one believes they have a "right" to.

So I have a few questions for teachers and students:

Teachers:

What copywrite material do you provide your students when they pay for a class or workshop? ie: Choreography? Notes? Video?

What rights are they permitted in the reproduction of that material? And how do you let them know what your policy is?

Students:

What copywrite material do you expect to have certain rights to when paying for a class or workshop?

Short answer - no.

Teaching is not really about selling ideas, it's about giving and inspiring them.

Now - if I use somebody's else video/choreography - example, Jillina's, then of course, as she asks, I make sure everybody knows who created it - ditto the music, I do try to tell people what this or that song is, etc, hoping to encourage them to learn more and find their own favorites/develop a style.

This is different of course from making and presenting a work of art - a ballet, an intricate bit of choreography - in that case, one could TRY to copywrite it but good luck with that - the fact is, in the world of art, people copy each other all the time. Back in the day, Braque and Picasso were virtually indistinguishable when they were both doing cubism.

So oh well. It's about the process isn't it? about doing it.

PS I do pass out practice notes, combinations, etc that I have written up - but to copywrite them? no - why?

The only material I teach which I consider copyright is choreography. Everything else (technique, combinations, styles, general knowledge, etc) is too generic to be copyrightable.

I provide choreography notes online, in a password protected section of my website. The password protection is far from foolproof, but it's enough. I often also have other handouts in that section. Strictly speaking those notes and handouts are copyright, but if I was that precious about it, I wouldn't put them online however well protected. I take the view that once it's on the Internet, it's Out There.

I teach my regular students that I'm ok with them using any of my choreographies to perform, but to ask me if they are thinking of using them to teach anyone else. I don't harp on about it, it's just one of those things which is part of my general education as to proper behaviour. With workshops, I would usually say the same thing more specifically. My choreo notes and handouts say essentially this handout is for my students' own personal use and I provide contact information if they wish to use any of it for their teaching purposes.

But to be honest, if people choose to teach my work, whether by teaching one of my choreos, or using material from any of my handouts, stealing my workshop ideas or simply by copying the way I explain things, well... I'm not so worried, it's the most sincere form of flattery, and I know that they'll never do it as well as I do!

The thing about teaching is that it's all about sharing knowledge, experience and information. Any teacher who holds any of that back, for fear that someone may take it and actually *use* it, needs to consider whether she/he is in the right profession.

I won't teach another teacher's choreography, and if I teach material that I picked up from another teacher, I try to acknowledge it, and credit that teacher.

For some workshops I provide notes with a copyright line in the footer. Not enough I know as I once had a student show me these "great khaleegi notes" - with my notes and drawings (which were hand drawn so really identifiable) and another teacher's name and contact details in place of mine!! I see why Dr Mo put his copyright notice as a watermark.

If I show any video material I include its name and where it can be bought - but not a clip of the video.

I handout choreography notes near the end of a (class) choreography and include a copyright, explicit request for acknowledgement and the track, album, artist of the music.

I have copyright info on my articles on my website, as well as a footnote on anything I pass out to my class. I do let people know that they can use my information but theye must obtain my direct permission first.

If I am e-mailing notes I send them as a PDF file which is "read only". I think as teachers it is our duty to inspire with our material, and the best way to combat plagiarism is to educate out students about copyright and "playing nice" with other dancers material.

After that it really is up to the morality of our student to do the right thing with our material.

The few choreographies I provide to students have a copyright notice on them. Because these choreos are sometimes used for performances, I have everyone learning it sign an agreement that includes how the choreo can be used.

For example, students may perform the choreo, but they must give verbal or written credit to me; they may not teach it to anyone else, period. Ever.

If 10 years from now I see my choreo being performed at a hafla, and a former student of mine is the instructor, it will take everything I have to not walk up to him/her and punch said person in the nose.

And I might not be able to control myself.

Just thinking about somebody disrespecting another teacher/performer in that manner makes me really

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

The few choreographies I provide to students have a copyright notice on them. Because these choreos are sometimes used for performances, I have everyone learning it sign an agreement that includes how the choreo can be used.

For example, students may perform the choreo, but they must give verbal or written credit to me; they may not teach it to anyone else, period. Ever.

If 10 years from now I see my choreo being performed at a hafla, and a former student of mine is the instructor, it will take everything I have to not walk up to him/her and punch said person in the nose.

And I might not be able to control myself.

Just thinking about somebody disrespecting another teacher/performer in that manner makes me really

Deborah

I often (not always unfortunately) verbally outline the rights available. Perform? yes. Teach? only with permission. But it is those times when I've 'assumed' that this is understood that I have realised that there are different ideas on what is allowed. Just because teacher A has no problem with placing no restrictions upon the reproduction doesn't mean teacher B will even want you to perform it.

I can see how a signed agreement will help make sure there is no confusion.

I remember a Medlist discussion when an instructor was talking about teaching Morocco's choreographies and her surprise when Morocco herself explained, in detail, why this was not permitted.

I have danced at non-bellydance studios where there are signs up everywhere stating that material presented in class is for learning purposes only, the property of the studio and not to be performed or taught elsewhere.

And of course who hasn't attended a workshop where there is someone wanting to videotape the class and the teacher (or actually doing it)?

I have taught choreography workshops where the purpose was to provide the attendees with the choreography to perform, teach, alter, whatever on the proviso that credit is given where due... though of course these are never newest or most precious works.

I assume that any choreography I teach in a weekly class or workshop will be performed by some of those who learn it, and that's fine with me. If the performance situation allows them to identify the choreographer, I hope they will say they learned it from me, but I also accept that many performance situations aren't conducive to that.

I give choreography notes in the form of printed pages. On these, I always put a statement that the notes are for the personal use of the individual who learned the choreography directly from me in the class, and are NOT to be copied, redistributed, put on the web, etc.

I would prefer that people NOT reteach my choreographies to others who did not attend my class/workshop unless they first contact me for permission. (I have been known to give such permission, depending on the details of the individual situation.)

I don't currently have a formal troupe, though I do provide opportunities for my students to perform my choreography as if they were a troupe. When I have had a troupe in the past, I had a rule that choreographies I created for the troupe must NOT be performed outside the context of approved-by-me troupe performances. So, I would draw a distinction between made-for-weekly-classes choreography (which people were allowed to perform as they saw fit) and made-for-troupe choreography (which was for troupe only).

As a student, when I first started years ago, I assumed the choreos my teacher taught weren`t a big deal and we could do whatever with them (as long as credit was given, of course) because she never said otherwise. Besides, we would barely reach a minute into a song before a new semester started, so there wasn't much to work with, anyway.

I was very much corrected, however, when as a yearling, I auditioned for a student troupe of another teacher using one of her choreos (I gave credit!). She *flipped* when she found out. I know I should've asked permission first out of politeness, but I never thought the answer would've been "no," and the only reason I DIDN'T ask was because she was on vacation. Plus, my friend insisted that I paid for classes and the choreos so I had rights to them. Boy were we wrong! Now I know that this teacher doesn't allow us to do anything with her choreos except perform them at her own shows... or to friends as long as there are no video cameras! :S

In contrast, the other teacher I am with is the complete opposite. We are allowed to take video in class, she sometimes gives us notes, she offers tips "in case you decide to perform this somewhere," she suggests variations to personalize them, and even *encourages* us to perform them for practice. I really appreciate this freedom!

Personally, I don't see the point of learning a choreo if it comes with lots of strings. As long as I give credit, I don't see the crime in performing it, cameras or not. And I should have the right to post pics and videos that I'm in wherever I wish as long as everyone in the vid knew they were being taped and didn't complain. As for teaching a choreo, yes, permission should be given in that case. IMO, copyright should be stated right off the bat so students can decide to accept the terms and continue class anyway, or to disagree and discontinue. I feel like I was taken for a ride my first year, working hard to memorize the choreos and become good only to be told "bad girl!" when I applied what I learned.

My conclusion is that each teacher is different and I can't make assumptions if it hasn't been discussed!

I do pretty much what Bea does...

I think we teachers should make this issue as clear as we can for students since it's part of the "biz of bellydance" as much as dancing is. But, so much of what we teach gets lost in translation (or memory) that we shouldn't worry much about what they do later. Life's too short, and in the end, some people will know the truth about the history of a dance, most won't. Honestly, in the long run I don't really care about it personally, but in the business side of things, I try to be clear with students what credits to give, what uses they can make of material, etc.

Choreos taught in my class: students are completely free to do whatever they want with them -- perform them (well, mediocre, or poorly), change them, whatever.

Choreos created for troupes: are specifically for the troupe use, and troupe members sign a written contract regarding choreo copyright as well as other performing ethics issues. Troupe members cannot perform the troupe choreos elsewhere.

Information I teach is not copyrightable. However, my written articles and handouts are my writing and I would not be pleased to see it copied and used by someone else.

I've been to many workshops, and never (but once) been told that the choreography is to be given credit to the creator.
That, to me, has always gone without saying.
Now, that being said, I feel in the BD community we should all be respecting somebody else choreography and give them credit, if we are performing it. If you don't? Well, any other dancer who sees you perform it will know...and you've lost credibility.
That doesn't mean you can't teach it; but if you do, give those you've taught it to a written version, with the song and the choreographer information on it, so even if THEY teach it to someone else, they'll know who to give credit to.
Nobody looks down on someone who's performing someone else choreo, and it's also ok to make it "your own" by adding tidbits or changing tidbits. But it's still not your choreo if you do.
That's my opinion!!!
Jen

Originally Posted by harmoney76

That doesn't mean you can't teach it; but if you do, give those you've taught it to a written version, with the song and the choreographer information on it, so even if THEY teach it to someone else, they'll know who to give credit to.

As a teacher, I am using and earning money from my choreography. Therefore I do NOT think it's ok for anyone else to teach my work. If someone else teaches Béatrice's choreography to Scheherazade, why would their students bother to come to a workshop or a class where Béatrice herself is teaching her choreography to Scheherazade?

Originally Posted by beafarhana

As a teacher, I am using and earning money from my choreography. Therefore I do NOT think it's ok for anyone else to teach my work. If someone else teaches Béatrice's choreography to Scheherazade, why would their students bother to come to a workshop or a class where Béatrice herself is teaching her choreography to Scheherazade?

Most workshops I've been to, they don't teach the choreo they use, but a slightly different version....

My first teacher actually had her warm up copyrighted. But to be fair, it was part of her Masters thesis. We had to sign an agreement that if we ever taught, we would not use her warm up. Which was fine, I don't believe in doing floor work during a warm up! later in class, maybe, but not in the first 5 mins!

She also had a few choreos copyrighted, but that was okay simply because she was to only source for the music. It had been written for herand she owned the masters, so no one could get their hands on the music to perform or teach anyway!

An interesting way to do business.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by harmoney76

Most workshops I've been to, they don't teach the choreo they use, but a slightly different version....

I mean that I earn money from teaching these choreos.

I made 'em up. That means *I'm* the one who gets to earn the money teaching them. Not someone who learnt it in a workshop.

I thought what harmoney76 meant was that her experience with teachers is that they sometimes lowball the choreographies they teach to students, and reserve the more interesting/challenging/dynamic versions of the routines for their own use. If, as a teacher, you are only selling students a simplified or repetitive version of a better choreography, you would have less reason to need to control what they do with it--sort of the same idea as a software company offering a stripped-down, shareware version of a product. I guess the bottom line is whether you consider your choreographies advertising for your teaching brand or products unto themselves.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I thought what harmoney76 meant was that her experience with teachers is that they sometimes lowball the choreographies they teach to students, and reserve the more interesting/challenging/dynamic versions of the routines for their own use. If, as a teacher, you are only selling students a simplified or repetitive version of a better choreography, you would have less reason to need to control what they do with it--sort of the same idea as a software company offering a stripped-down, shareware version of a product. I guess the bottom line is whether you consider your choreographies advertising for your teaching brand or products unto themselves.

exactly!!!! Thanks for clarifying me LOL!

And actually, ALL the workshops I've been to, at least here in MI/OH/IN, that's the way they are taught, if it's a choreography we are learning. Not once have I NOT heard: "when/if you teach this to your students/troupe".....
So, maybe things are just done differently in this neck of the woods?
Besides, everyone knows how totally distasteful it would be to do someone else's EXACT choreo...it's like a remake of a really good song...the first person did it great, the second ruined it...and everyone will have the "seen that before, show me something new" look on their face.....

Originally Posted by harmoney76

So, maybe things are just done differently in this neck of the woods?
Besides, everyone knows how totally distasteful it would be to do someone else's EXACT choreo...it's like a remake of a really good song...the first person did it great, the second ruined it...and everyone will have the "seen that before, show me something new" look on their face.....

Not to blow a hole in this theory, but there is a working dancer with a troupe here who has been known on more than one occassion to take the choreography from another troupe, lock, stock and barrel, and teach it to her dancers and preform it. So, while it may be tacky, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Not to blow a hole in this theory, but there is a working dancer with a troupe here who has been known on more than one occassion to take the choreography from another troupe, lock, stock and barrel, and teach it to her dancers and preform it. So, while it may be tacky, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

{{{HUGS}}}

I totally agree. And it's ridiculous. You would think people would want to be known for their own thing!!!
This is a very good thread btw...very informative for all of us. I apologize if I sounded disagreeable earlier, I didn't mean to!

Originally Posted by harmoney76

And actually, ALL the workshops I've been to, at least here in MI/OH/IN, that's the way they are taught, if it's a choreography we are learning. Not once have I NOT heard: "when/if you teach this to your students/troupe".....
So, maybe things are just done differently in this neck of the woods?
Besides, everyone knows how totally distasteful it would be to do someone else's EXACT choreo...it's like a remake of a really good song...the first person did it great, the second ruined it...and everyone will have the "seen that before, show me something new" look on their face.....

I think that a workshop scenario is completely different than a class or a troupe situation. In most workshops, dancer demand to have a choreography as a more tangible result of the money and effort paid to attend, I guess. I'd rather technique since I'll never remember the choreo anyway.

I work hard on my choreography, and I am very careful to match the choreography to the level that I'm teaching at AS WELL AS the movements or concepts I'm teaching in that series. A choreography designed to strengthen, say, figure eights and using variations of only figure eights for example, would have very little value to a dancer in terms of a performance piece.

But people will take it and use it for performance.

I don't mind that, I do, however, take exception to someone taking my hard effort to create something that complements MY teaching style and methods and uses it to teach their students.

Teaching weekly classes is NOT the same as teaching workshops. A workshop is typically designed to showcase the talent of the dancer/teacher and for people to take something that showcases THAT dancers choreography or dance skill.

I don't do Jillina's choreography, but if I did, no one would say that it was as good as Jillina, but they may be able to tell where I got the choreo from.

I'd hate see a student of mine stand on a stage and do 4 minutes of figure eights (cause, really, that's not entertaining) for their sake, but I'd be livid if they ripped off MY teaching style and methods.

I know of one teacher in New England who refuses to have her troupe video'd because her choreography had been ripped off before (and used to win at a competition).

Originally Posted by harmoney76

And actually, ALL the workshops I've been to, at least here in MI/OH/IN, that's the way they are taught, if it's a choreography we are learning. Not once have I NOT heard: "when/if you teach this to your students/troupe".....

I have heard teachers say this at workshops. I've heard them offer specific hints for teaching the choreography, and additional ideas for different staging with multiple dancers. It depends on the teacher and where they fit into the economy. If you're a top-name draw, you're not concerned about students outdoing you, and if you have a lot of other products on the market (you sell CDs of your music or DVDs of your choreographies and you're active on the workshop circuit), every time someone performs or teaches your routine, they're essentially free advertising for you. Nobody in their right mind thinks learning Big Name Dancer's routine from Little Fish Teacher is the same experience. The only people who'd think the copy is just as good as the original are the students who don't actually respect Big Name Dancer or who are shortsighted cheapskates. You get what you pay for with secondhand education, and sometimes that's a lot of mistakes and misunderstandings. The issue is what happens when the owners of the intellectual property aren't big enough fish to absorb the loss of their material. If you're not riding on a lot of brand identification and you can't recoup the loss with additional new consumers, it can be a substantial blow to your business to have someone misappropriating your work.

Besides, everyone knows how totally distasteful it would be to do someone else's EXACT choreo...it's like a remake of a really good song...the first person did it great, the second ruined it...and everyone will have the "seen that before, show me something new" look on their face.....

I don't think it's distasteful to do a choreography exactly. I'd say it's distasteful to attempt to do a choreography (exactly or otherwise) and fail to do a good enough job that the originator could be proud of it. We certainly value individuality more than, say, ballet does, but if you can do a Reda Troupe or Bobby Farrah choreography exactly the way Reda or Farrah intended, more power to you. Reproducing a master choreographer's vision is a great talent unto itself, so keep on truckin'.

Originally Posted by kina

I'd hate see a student of mine stand on a stage and do 4 minutes of figure eights (cause, really, that's not entertaining) for their sake, but I'd be livid if they ripped off MY teaching style and methods.

I'm not sure where you are drawing the line between the rest of your lesson content and "teaching style and methods," but I see a distinction between choreographies and teaching materials. It's certainly maddening to see someone steal a choreography, but the reality is that most students do not have the ability to capture someone else's style well enough to do it justice. The result is almost always an inferior copy, and even if you can put enough "you" into the piece to flavor it differently, there's still the stigma that it wasn't your work, and we value dancers being able to control their own creative destinies.

OTOH, we have a very serious problem with plagiarism of written informational materials. If you take the time to write up notes for students or create a web site to explain dance history, music, or cultural topics, there is a horrifying chance that some other dancer will simply steal your work. We should be deeply ashamed of this. There's no "I was learning how she 'felt' the music" defense here. If you don't have the author's permission to redistribute these writings, and definitely if you are attempting to pass off the work as your own, it's theft, just as surely as if you went through this dancer's purse at a workshop when she wasn't looking and helped yourself to some of her money. I suppose the advantage of not having standardized notation is that teachers who create choreography notes can usually rest assured that their notes will be largely unintelligible to anyone who doesn't understand their conventions, though....

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'm not sure where you are drawing the line between the rest of your lesson content and "teaching style and methods," but I see a distinction between choreographies and teaching materials. It's certainly maddening to see someone steal a choreography, but the reality is that most students do not have the ability to capture someone else's style well enough to do it justice. The result is almost always an inferior copy, and even if you can put enough "you" into the piece to flavor it differently, there's still the stigma that it wasn't your work, and we value dancers being able to control their own creative destinies.

I've been blessed with teachers who have all had their own styles. And I've been to enough classes and workshops to know that most teacher's have their own styles.

Suhaila Salimpoor's style is codified and completely different than, say Morocco's, who is also completely different than Raqia Hassan.

And my style and methods are also different, by design. Not every teacher suits every student, and that's the reason why.

With the exception of information, I would err on the side of caution and ask permission to use the choreography, notes, etc. for other people. I would assume notes are off-limits for copying. The opinions seem so varied that I'd rather get explicit permission rather than assume that I have it.

I liken information sharing to reading a book or paper and discussing it. I'm not allowed to copy it and distribute it to others, but I can certainly talk about it, write about it (with citation), etc.

In regards to distastefully copying someones choreo, let me put it this way:
I went to a big name show, and saw a beautiful and talented dancer perform a drum solo I've seen Jillina do.
I was disappointed! I wanted to see THIS dancer...if I wanted Jillina, I'd go see her!
So, although I left the show impressed with her talent, I was disappointed in her performance.
Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by beafarhana

As a teacher, I am using and earning money from my choreography. Therefore I do NOT think it's ok for anyone else to teach my work. If someone else teaches Béatrice's choreography to Scheherazade, why would their students bother to come to a workshop or a class where Béatrice herself is teaching her choreography to Scheherazade?

Because the students are in a different country and cannot afford international airfares, accommodation and workshop fees?

Originally Posted by kashmir

Because the students are in a different country and cannot afford international airfares, accommodation and workshop fees?

In that situation, I've gladly given my student permission to teach my choreography. It was quite a thrill to think that my little routine was being taught in Australia!

Isn't there also an implicit assumption in this conversation that we're talking about the copyright-worthy works of active dancers and teachers? Once you've retired or shuffled off this mortal coil, the meaning behind using another dancer's work becomes more about "legacy" than "stealing" (assuming proper acknowledgment is still given). Unless you're just in it for the exercise, isn't the point of investing all of this heart, effort, and money to get to a place where you've learned/done/created something significant enough to live on after you stop working professionally?