Thread: Teacher Training.back to the old question...

Just how important/relevant/valuable is it to the prospective teacher?
I know it is a reasonably recent phenomenah and many teachers operate safely and skilfully without it so when does teacher training become useful?

Would you recommend a student to attend a class with some one who could not prove their expertise through training?

How would you judge the quality of the course? Is it validated in some way?
Just what is available in your country?

What would expect from a teacher who is trained as opposed to one who is not ,putting them on level terms in regards experience?

How important is it to be trained as a teacher as well as having your technique checked and your knowledge expanded?

I continue to hear of people who set up classes in this country (the UK) who have minimal experience and poor technique. They also disregard the need for PLI and Health and Safety and First Response training. Sadly I continue to come to the conclusion that there is anything we can do as they often operate in little bubbles of ignorance.If you talk about training and legal aspects, it doesn't somehow apply to them !
I have had students come to my college course when they realise they have been "sold a pup" in the way they have been taught (I use the word loosely) and yet these classes continue.

I know I begin to sound like I am a "jellous hater" but I am not seeking to increase my class numbers by taking people away from others. I am an employee and the numbers (once they reach a minimum) are irrelevant.Are we banging a silent drum by hoping that ill-equpped,ill-prepared even ignorant will sort themselves out? Will pennies ever drop,will we ever chase away the unethical, the frankly stupid? Or do we have to learn to live with them and can we "educate" them?If so , in what way?

I'd love to hear from someone either here in Europe or in the USA who knows of a teacher who has suddenly realised they are inaqequate and got sorted.

And I repeat there are plenty of very experienced teachers who learnt (and continue to do so) "on the job" over many years because there was no training as such and are very successful.

Originally Posted by lplmuk

Just how important/relevant/valuable is it to the prospective teacher?


Would you recommend a student to attend a class with some one who could not prove their expertise through training?

No, although I would be liberal with my interpretation of "training" and count non-bellydancing forms of training as a plus. However, I would feel obliged to tell of their existence if a student were to ask "do you know of any other teachers nearer my area" for example. I just wouldn't recommend them.



What would expect from a teacher who is trained as opposed to one who is not ,putting them on level terms in regards experience?

I would expect a trained teacher to not only have considerable experience in their dance field, but know about teaching methods, teaching styles, learning styles and all the other things taught on a teacher/adult training course.

How important is it to be trained as a teacher as well as having your technique checked and your knowledge expanded?

Training as a teacher can make you realise just how much you don't know, and also give you the tools to teach effectively at a range of levels. Regarding having your technique checked and knowledge expanded, I can't think of any other teaching area that doesn't demand this on an on-going basis. This of all those "teacher training" days when the schools are closed!

I continue to hear of people who set up classes in this country (the UK) who have minimal experience and poor technique. They also disregard the need for PLI and Health and Safety and First Response training. Sadly I continue to come to the conclusion that there is anything we can do as they often operate in little bubbles of ignorance.If you talk about training and legal aspects, it doesn't somehow apply to them !

You can't change people's if they don't want to know....... and bubbles of ignorance is a very good way of putting it!


I'd love to hear from someone either here in Europe or in the USA who knows of a teacher who has suddenly realised they are inaqequate and got sorted.

Sadly I can't say I do know of any. However, I know of quite of few - very good - teachers who agonize over their experience, put themselves down, and generally do not realise how good they are. They spend a lot of money on training, workshops etc that those folk in the "bubble of ignorance" would never think of doing = They're teachers, right? They don't need to be taught.

And I repeat there are plenty of very experienced teachers who learnt (and continue to do so) "on the job" over many years because there was no training as such and are very successful.

Absolutely, but I think it's going to get hard for this to happen in the future.

Back when I was first starting to teach, I really wanted to take a teacher training class. I tried to sign up for one offered by a local dancer that I admired, but her life erupted in drama and she canceled the planned training.

I think it would have made me a better teacher as a new one starting out. So I think it's beneficial for those who care enough to pursue it, but nothing will help the ones who don't give a damn.

Even today, after 14 years of teaching, I'd still gladly sign up for a teacher training course if it was offered by someone I have a lot of respect for, such as Hadia.

Originally Posted by lplmuk

Just how important/relevant/valuable is it to the prospective teacher?

This is a challenging question. It's easy to separate the extremely competent and the extremely incompetent from the herd, but the middle is difficult to sort. There are a lot of teachers who are quite competent on paper who aren't very good in reality, and a lot who have feeble credentials who are excellent dancers and insightful teachers.

Would you recommend a student to attend a class with some one who could not prove their expertise through training?

Of the teachers I have worked with on a weekly basis, none of them could "prove" they were qualified. Where I live, if you had to go to a teacher who could "prove" her worth, almost no one would ever get to class.

How would you judge the quality of the course?

Sadly, personal preference. Most students are on their own to determine a teacher's competence, both stylistically and whether the teaching technique is sufficiently rigorous, informed, and sensible.

Is it validated in some way?

Some studios have requirements for certification in first aid or teaching exercise, but that varies widely. Most places here don't have high expectations.

What would expect from a teacher who is trained as opposed to one who is not ,putting them on level terms in regards experience?

What kind of training? There are two issues here: being a dance teacher who presents safe, sound technique, and being a teacher who is knowledgeable about this particular dance. I don't expect having a certification to teach aerobics or yoga means much in terms of being a good belly dancer. I suppose it's nice to have general first-aid training. These things have to do with the nature of teaching a movement activity properly, not belly dance specifically.

Certification in terms of the art form is more compartmentalized. If a dancer has studied another dancer's system (Salimpour Method, Haida's teacher training, etc.), they should be competently able to reproduce that material. I don't expect Dancer X to be a complete substitute for studying with Suhaila or Hadia, but I also don't expect them to be a clod who memorized a bunch of stuff and can't apply it according to their mentor's methodology. It's quite possible to be a good belly dancer (talented, in tune with the spirit of the art, culturally knowledgeable) without having any formal certification to teach belly dance classes. The Middle East is full of this kind of dancer.

How important is it to be trained as a teacher as well as having your technique checked and your knowledge expanded?

Teachers should be reasonably knowledgeable in terms of body mechanics (posture, safety, etc.) and culture (the dance itself, music, historical background). They should be committed to continuing their educations. Good luck figuring out how to enforce this.

[Continued...]

They also disregard the need for PLI and Health and Safety and First Response training.

There may be areas of the US that have regional laws regarding this sort of thing, but it isn't national, and lots of places don't have any requirements.

Are we banging a silent drum by hoping that ill-equpped,ill-prepared even ignorant will sort themselves out? Will pennies ever drop,will we ever chase away the unethical, the frankly stupid?

As long as we have no standards and no way to enforce them, the burden of determining "good" falls to the consumer. As long as consumers are uninformed, the market will continue to indulge the unethical and the frankly stupid.

Or do we have to learn to live with them and can we "educate" them?If so , in what way?

Do you want to start with raising our own expectations or raising the knowledge in the GP?

I'd love to hear from someone either here in Europe or in the USA who knows of a teacher who has suddenly realised they are inaqequate and got sorted.

I don't believe it is uncommon to hear a teacher say, "I learned to do X this way, and I took a class with a different teacher and I realized I was doing it wrong!" I'm not familiar with anyone who had a wholesale conversion experience, though. I think there are a lot of teachers who worry they are secretly inadequate (whether they are or not), and there are a lot of dancers looking at other dancers and thinking, "You are inadequate. You shouldn't be working as a pro," but nobody wants to talk about the elephant in the room. The Tyranny of the Sisterhood means nobody can ever say another dancer is wrong or inadequate. How many uploads are there right now in the Video forum where a student put up a video and although there are lots of views, no one stepped forward with candid corrections? Perhaps this is because people don't want to undercut teachers who charge for video critique by giving away free assessments online. More likely, people watched the video, didn't like it, and walked away. As long as students have to beg teachers for corrective feedback and the responses are a bunch of tepid suggestions and a lot of "I thought it was lovely!", we'll never climb out of this hole.

Originally Posted by lplmuk

Just how important/relevant/valuable is it to the prospective teacher?

Makes you realize there is a hellova lot more to teaching dance than just demonstrating movements.

when does teacher training become useful?

It's useful to dancers who want to teach but haven't worked with a strong role model or mentor teacher.

Just what is available in your country?

Apart from the "method-based" courses, like Suhaila's and Piper's, I've seen two very good study-at-home courses.

1. Teach Belly Dance - Classes, Lessons & Courses - Shemiran Ibrahim (Great for beginning teachers who don't know exactly how to describe movement or how to plan a syllabus)

2. The Belly Dance Trainer Certification Program (Great for all levels of teachers who want to teach complex concepts and musicality. Doesn't cover basic movements, but rather how to identify learning styles and problems, and how to communicate concepts in musicality.)

What would expect from a teacher who is trained as opposed to one who is not ,putting them on level terms in regards experience?

I would expect a class that develops advanced concepts such as energy and breathwork, as well as developing "meaning in movement" type of personalization and variation.

How important is it to be trained as a teacher as well as having your technique checked and your knowledge expanded?

I thought I knew a lot about dance before I got the 2 courses I mentioned above. What I realized is that I knew a lot about dance, but I didn't have any clue how to systematically convey that information in a PRACTICAL way to my students.

I'd love to hear from someone either here in Europe or in the USA who knows of a teacher who has suddenly realised they are inaqequate and got sorted.

Well, me. I didn't have a strong mentor to work with, so I wasn't comfortable teaching anything other than basic stuff you can get on any dvd. I knew there was a lot of stuff about teaching that I simply didn't know, and I wanted to be a more effective teacher. I actually took some time off, read a bit, explored some basic adult education handbooks, and got the 2 courses mentioned. I think it has made a world of difference, not only in my teaching but also in my own dancing.

And I repeat there are plenty of very experienced teachers who learnt (and continue to do so) "on the job" over many years because there was no training as such and are very successful.

Sure, but I don't want to discover all this stuff at 60, when I could have very easily discovered it at 40. We have plenty of people in the dance community who have made their collective wisdom available. Ignoring that wisdom in favor of just learning "on the job" is NOWADAYS, an odd kind of perpetuated ignorance.

I used to think an official "traning" would be a great idea...until the Zumba craze began and I learned of "trained an certified" Zumba instructors who got their certification after one day of workhops and couldn't tell their samba from their cha cha. Suddenly, an actual "training" isn't as appealing to me. I'm much more interested in an instructor's experience, skill and ability to communicate, which are all things that can be learned outside a formal training.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

I used to think an official "traning" would be a great idea...until the Zumba craze began and I learned of "trained an certified" Zumba instructors who got their certification after one day of workhops and couldn't tell their samba from their cha cha. Suddenly, an actual "training" isn't as appealing to me. I'm much more interested in an instructor's experience, skill and ability to communicate, which are all things that can be learned outside a formal training.

This isn't training - is a pyramid style certification happens here too. From what I hear some of the belly dance certification weekends are not much better. But that is because the words are being misused.

When I did my Certificate in Dance Teaching at QUT, I thought with a regular Diploma in Teaching (4 years subject study in University plus 1 years specific teacher training at Christchurch Teachers College) I could apply for the postgrad course - but with only one year specifically in teaching that was not allowed. In addition to get into the undergrad course I had to prove my dance training and provide proof of teaching dance under supervision! So, starting with someone with proven dance training and some teaching experience, a two year course is started covering teaching methodology, safe dance practices, (western performance) dance history, etc etc - with assignments and practicals. That is training - not some weekend turn up and get a piece of paper.

I won't insist that everyone who wanted to teach belly dance needs to go to that extreme. The cost is high and it would also cut out some potentially good teachers who are incapable of tertiary study. But, I believe a teacher should have a good base in belly dance (whatever style they intend to teach plus a little understanding of others), know basic body mechanics (what is safe, what is not, what limitations you can expect in a mixed class), and know how to teach (planning what they will cover, breaking down how it will be covered, understand how people learn). There are many courses (at least in NZ) which teach how to teach adults. The Anatomy and Physiology (especially related to dance) is a bit harder but is out there (check out places that train PE types). The belly dance bit shouldn't be missed out either (workshops and privates in addition to normal classes in most cases)

As a student, I'm aware that some very good teachers don't have formal qualifications - but with new teachers I'd find it reassuring and inspiring of a certain amount of confidence to know that they had qualifications in things like general safe teaching, adult education, first aid... Aside from anything else, it shows that they care about teaching enough to make the effort to get the qualifications.

Most of the teachers in my immediate area don't have formal qualifications, but we're encouraging those who teach for the Middle Eastern dance society to take training courses e.g. JWAAD foundation or the Mosaic safety training days and subsidising their costs if they choose to do so. I'm thinking of it as providing professional development opportunities rather than telling them they aren't currently good enough.

I think the quality of teachers is one of (if not the) most important issues in Western belly dance. I hear yet again of people contemplating teaching with very little skill and even less training in either the dance or the profession of teaching.
And I believe we should keep the topic live and discuss strategies. I very much applaud the sentiments people have posted here.

I agree so much with what is being said! Teaching is double sided; you have to be great at teaching (knowing what to say and how to say it so that students can pick it up) and also have a great understanding of the dance and how it relates to the body.

Both require time, energy, knowledge, and soooo much more. I think tearcher training courses are one avenue, but so is trial and error or 'on the job training' when there aren't any courses around.

We're such a unique dance form in that we are all sort of learning as we go. There is no Mighty Path that you have to travel on to become a great dancer or teacher. BUT we still have a clear understanding and recognition of great dancers and teachers.

With that being said, there are bad teachers in any dance field and typically, there are more bad teachers without qualifications than those with qualifications. I think we should have a fancy-named review sqad who certifies programs of teaching and study and possibly teachers as well...

I really am not quite sure about the idea of "trial and error" when it comes to teaching. Think about the damage you can do if you are not sufficiently prepared to teach. If you are not aware of the damage you can do by instructing people wrongly in a physical activity, think of how you can put off someone from enjoying this dance, think how you can make spectacles of your students if they dance badly. In the UK, you can even be in trouble with the law if you do not get a Criminal Records check if you are teaching certain groups of people: the young, the elderly and others considered vulnerable. You need to do research on your postion as a responsible person embarking on a difficult profession. Having technique under your belt is not enough.
There is no excuse for learning on the job these days as there was 20 years ago. There is so much help and guidance out there to turn out worthy practitioners: advice on the internet,reasonable rates of PLI, supportive networks that did not exist even in the late 90s when I started dancing. All you had to go by then was the fact that a teacher was successfully filling a class. Now employers and students can ask about experience and training.
Certainly no one expects that teachers of many years experience to go off and pay for some kind of certification.S/he may have more knowledge under her belt that the trainers! But for those embarking on teaching, there are acredited courses for teacher training and Festivals and workshops galore to attend to keep with one's own learning.
I am sorry to say there are far too many people jumping onto the teaching bandwagon, even in my own small neck of the woods ,who have no business doing so. But what strategy do we use to call their bluff because it's a situation that should not be allowed to continue? I do know of one dancer who has no sense of musicality,no sound grasp of basic technique yet has got herself "employed" by an volunteer's organisation to teach. Oh but it's only for fun isn't it?
Yup until I see you on the high street at the opening of an envelope, claiming to be belly-dancing and..
Yup until that elderly lady on the back row does her back in!

Let me clarify what I mean by 'trial and error'. I'm not suggesting that someone who is unqualified or who knows little or nothing about saftey or what is needed to correctly teach dance as to not damage the body. What I'm refering to is the simple things you can't learn. You can know so much and study so much and still make mistakes as a teacher. Teaching is a job that requires you to learn as you go, very few people are born amazing instructors, just doesn't happen. So many things I do now as a teacher I didn't do when I first started teaching. You learn as you go, grow as you go, but you certainly have a foundation of knowledge and saftey before you even think of starting.

Originally Posted by Kanikah

Let me clarify what I mean by 'trial and error'. I'm not suggesting that someone who is unqualified or who knows little or nothing about saftey or what is needed to correctly teach dance as to not damage the body. What I'm refering to is the simple things you can't learn. You can know so much and study so much and still make mistakes as a teacher. Teaching is a job that requires you to learn as you go, very few people are born amazing instructors, just doesn't happen. So many things I do now as a teacher I didn't do when I first started teaching. You learn as you go, grow as you go, but you certainly have a foundation of knowledge and saftey before you even think of starting.

So basically, things like saftey, proper body alignment, proper muscle use, HISTORY, appropriate laws/liscensing for your area, technique, methodology and so forth should all be there before you start teaching. While, for example, learning to rotate your class so that you can properly see everyone's every movement is something you may not do immediately. Or turning a choreography class away from the mirror for a few runs to make sure they get the choreography. Or learning how to choreograph better. Or putting in a cheeky saying you learned at that workshop last week that will help students remember a certain move. The list goes on and on. A good teacher never stops learning and therefore always has room to become a better dancer and a better teacher.

I hope to start teaching, on a very small scale initially, in the not too distant future, having been dancing for about eight years. Wanting to do it 'properly', and not being able to find a suitable hands-on training course specifically for belly dance within reasonable travelling distance, I decided it would be a good idea to get an Exercise to Music Instructor certification, as at least then I would have some kind of formal training. How wrong I was! Although the theory (anatomy and physiology, safe warm ups and cool downs etc) was useful, as soon as we got into the practical days I realised I had made a huge mistake (and wasted a LOT of money). The whole programme was based entirely on teaching an aerobics class, which was just a totally alien concept to me. I hated every minute of it and, on top of that, leaping about in an aerobics studio for six hours a day aggravated an old, long forgotten knee problem which I aquired many years ago and had forgotten about (doing step classes). I ended up having to defer my final assessment and, to be honest, I can't see myself ever bothering to complete the course because apart from having a certificate saying I'm trained to teach something I have no intention of ever teaching, there is no point.

I've been looking into things like PLI, PPL and CRB, all of which I'll be putting in place before I even set foot in a dance studio as a teacher, and I've just successfully completed the three year full HSE approved First Aid course. I hope at some point I'll be able to afford to do the JWAAD course, but having learnt from (bad) experience, I won't let lack of a formal qualification stop me from going ahead and taking what I love to the next level.

Originally Posted by lplmuk

But what strategy do we use to call their bluff because it's a situation that should not be allowed to continue? I do know of one dancer who has no sense of musicality,no sound grasp of basic technique yet has got herself "employed" by an volunteer's organisation to teach. Oh but it's only for fun isn't it?
Yup until I see you on the high street at the opening of an envelope, claiming to be belly-dancing and..
Yup until that elderly lady on the back row does her back in!

We need a Fancy-Named-Review-Squad! If we created an international organisation who's purpose it is to review teacher methodology or programs created to teach students/teachers, I think that would work. The organisation wouldn't create teaching courses/qualifications, it would just serve as a bank for approved courses created by instructors or studios (sort of like CDET). Prospective students could then visit said bank to find a teacher or program in their area.

Originally Posted by Kanikah

We need a Fancy-Named-Review-Squad! If we created an international organisation who's purpose it is to review teacher methodology or programs created to teach students/teachers, I think that would work. The organisation wouldn't create teaching courses/qualifications, it would just serve as a bank for approved courses created by instructors or studios (sort of like CDET). Prospective students could then visit said bank to find a teacher or program in their area.

Approved by whom, though?

NATCMED (National Association for Teacher Certification in Middle Eastern Dance) has been around for years, but the numbers of certified instructors in their ranks aren't growing.

Unless we ALL decided to put our collective intellectual and financial weight behind a system, it will simply stutter and fail, or fail to grow any new members. That's what has categorically happened in the US.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Approved by whom, though?

NATCMED (National Association for Teacher Certification in Middle Eastern Dance) has been around for years, but the numbers of certified instructors in their ranks aren't growing.

Unless we ALL decided to put our collective intellectual and financial weight behind a system, it will simply stutter and fail, or fail to grow any new members. That's what has categorically happened in the US.

Yes, that's why I think we should all put our collective intellectural and financial weight behind a system. An international system that is held together by the time, energy, promotional skills, finances, and experience of international individuals within our dance form. It would be a labour of collective love :D We could also spur its growth by inviting programs that already have industry approval to be given immediate certification.

Such a beast would require a HUGE commitment from a considerable number of people, but I really think it's what we need.


EDIT: I also think it's key to have an organisation who's goal is to certify for the pure purpose of saying "this person's teaching methodology is accepted by professionals within the community", that should purely be the goal. It should be an affordable way to get programs/teachers on a list/database that students can visit in order to find them.

You mean rather then a single certification a group that recognizes several types of certifications that the teachers can then advertise through listing in the group or some such; not to mention information on how to become certified from any of them?

Internationally?

It would have to be a labor of love by volunteers.

Originally Posted by Ariadne_Eleni

You mean rather then a single certification a group that recognizes several types of certifications that the teachers can then advertise through listing in the group or some such; not to mention information on how to become certified from any of them?

Internationally?

It would have to be a labor of love by volunteers.

Yes, a group that certifies certifications/programs/methodology/etc. And certainly, lots of love and labour by people with time :D which is quite a thing to ask, but I think it would be very useful.

I do think steps have to be taken at a local level. You have to constantly stress the necessity for legal and safe practise and that this is a profession would-be teachers are entering. It doesn't matter at you call yourself: instructor, tutor or "I'm just showing them how I do it", you are teaching! Maybe as well as informing those embarking on this course of action, you stress very clearly n no uncertain terms what the negative outcomes might be.
I have known teachers who were not actually fantastic performers but their approach was based in solid basic technique and they had the communication skills,authority and sensitivity to students' needs required. They also had respect for the culture of the dance.
If I hear once more woman say to me..but I am only teaching beginners ( as also discussed on another thread), I will scream and remind them they are embarking on the most important part of any student's journey. Few students ever recover easily from a bad start.
Put it this way.... I was not allowed to teach 11 year old children until I had spent 4 years studying my subject and 1 in classroom, learning the job under strict supervision. Yet I hear of women entering a classroom full of not necessarily fit women and teaching them what can be a demanding and challenging physical activity. I hear of students with nil experience and poor technique being left in charge of teachers' classes, I watched a dancer with four (badly done) moves in her repetoire to be told she is a teacher..gulp and know of one who asked how you hear the beat in a piece of music. Do we stay silent or direct them to the nearest training scheme or local purveyor of good practise?

Originally Posted by Kanikah

Let me clarify what I mean by 'trial and error'. I'm not suggesting that someone who is unqualified or who knows little or nothing about saftey or what is needed to correctly teach dance as to not damage the body. What I'm refering to is the simple things you can't learn. You can know so much and study so much and still make mistakes as a teacher. Teaching is a job that requires you to learn as you go, very few people are born amazing instructors, just doesn't happen. So many things I do now as a teacher I didn't do when I first started teaching. You learn as you go, grow as you go, but you certainly have a foundation of knowledge and saftey before you even think of starting.

Sorry but when you commence training as a schoolteacher, you undergo numerous checks on your health,suitability,any criminal record and your knowledge of your subject. When you enter the classroom you are observed under strict supervision. Yes you learn by handling a situation the wrong way sometimes, but you very rapidly are put right by your mentor if not your students. If for one minute you put your charges in a hazardous situation, you would be out on your elbow.
I'd like that to be the situation..whatever you are teaching to whoever. That there was a rigorous testing of a persons' suitabilty to teach belly dance just as you would maths or history.
I was asked to list my qualifications to teach this dance,I had to be CRB'd and I was inspected at regular intervals by the college itself and outside agencies. I would imagine that private employers are concerned they hire experienced and qualified people but equally I wish someone was concerned about the wellbeing of those learning in church halls from Miss one-year of belly dance who has never had the responsibility of anyone other than herself , the clueless "I don't need training..I'm a born belly dancer/ descended from an Egyptian princess/ dance-around-the mushrooms merchant"or "It's just a bit of fun"ster. They are outnumbered these people but they still out there in one guise or another,sadly. They are a potential danger to their students and to the stature of this dance.

Originally Posted by lplmuk

Sorry but when you commence training as a schoolteacher, you undergo numerous checks on your health,suitability,any criminal record and your knowledge of your subject. When you enter the classroom you are observed under strict supervision. Yes you learn by handling a situation the wrong way sometimes, but you very rapidly are put right by your mentor if not your students. If for one minute you put your charges in a hazardous situation, you would be out on your elbow.
I'd like that to be the situation..whatever you are teaching to whoever. That there was a rigorous testing of a persons' suitabilty to teach belly dance just as you would maths or history.
I was asked to list my qualifications to teach this dance,I had to be CRB'd and I was inspected at regular intervals by the college itself and outside agencies. I would imagine that private employers are concerned they hire experienced and qualified people but equally I wish someone was concerned about the wellbeing of those learning in church halls from Miss one-year of belly dance who has never had the responsibility of anyone other than herself , the clueless "I don't need training..I'm a born belly dancer/ descended from an Egyptian princess/ dance-around-the mushrooms merchant"or "It's just a bit of fun"ster. They are outnumbered these people but they still out there in one guise or another,sadly. They are a potential danger to their students and to the stature of this dance.

Which is why I really think a certifying body wowuld be good. It would provide some sort of recognised structure. It isn't perfect but it would certainly improve the situation.

Originally Posted by Kanikah

We're such a unique dance form in that we are all sort of learning as we go. There is no Mighty Path that you have to travel on to become a great dancer or teacher.

But bodies are bodies and brains are brains. Basic anatomy and teaching methodology isn't different - just some of the subject matter.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

I used to think an official "traning" would be a great idea...until the Zumba craze began and I learned of "trained an certified" Zumba instructors who got their certification after one day of workhops and couldn't tell their samba from their cha cha. Suddenly, an actual "training" isn't as appealing to me. I'm much more interested in an instructor's experience, skill and ability to communicate, which are all things that can be learned outside a formal training.

I agree: sure, lots of belly dancers can teach, or are capable of teaching, but not everyone should be. Hell some of them can "claim" being certified or even professional after a show or two, that still doesn't make it true. I've always looked at them in a performance, or valued their "feedback" as an instructor, or their students performance to help me decide.

Originally Posted by kashmir

But bodies are bodies and brains are brains. Basic anatomy and teaching methodology isn't different - just some of the subject matter.

Yes, basic anatomy is the same, but teaching methodology is extrememly varied within the dance world-not just within our genre. Very few teachers teach the exact same way. (not in reguard to what is safe but in reguard to the process that is used). All teachers must teach in a way that is SAFE and must get a set subject matter across, but there are soooo many ways to do that. For instance, the extreme repetition and daily exercises that I went through in learning the Vaganova Method were extremely different from the ascending rhythmic speed my teacher employed to teach flamenco.

Oh yes I agree, teachers do have different approaches and thank goodness for that. Students do not want to be attending workshops and classs where they experience the same methods over and over again. A teacher's personality will dictate how she approaches her students. My first two teachers were very different: one inspires with her passion and there was a of following the bouncing butt but because the butt moved so well, that was easy. The next had a much ore structured and analytical approach.
And I have to say that certifications of teacher training do have to be verfiied. Yes look at Zumba..hand over your money and lo you are an instructor. You need a system which will fail as well as pass and one which stands up to scrutiny by an outside agency.
And again I repeat I do accept that there are people who have been teaching for years and need no-one to certify them

Originally Posted by Kanikah

If we created an international organisation who's purpose it is to review teacher methodology or programs created to teach students/teachers, I think that would work. The organisation wouldn't create teaching courses/qualifications, it would just serve as a bank for approved courses created by instructors or studios (sort of like CDET). Prospective students could then visit said bank to find a teacher or program in their area.

Reviewing methodology on paper means nothing. Anyone can write good copy, and most dancers do. How are you going to determine that "I teach authentic, traditional Middle Eastern dance" doesn't actually mean "I teach inferior technique. I don't understand proper muscular engagement myself, so I can't explain or demonstrate it in class. My choreographies are mechanical and unlike anything a native Middle Easterner of any ethnicity would ever be caught dead doing. I don't even like traditional Middle Eastern music, so I don't encourage students to learn about it, which is just as well because I can't dance and play finger cymbals at the same time anyway. I'm only in it for the attention and the dressing up, so all this ranting about ethics and competence is completely lost on me. I just want to have fun, and the ladies have fun in my class, so we're meeting OUR objectives"? Just because you say you can do a proper 3/4 shimmy doesn't mean you actually can. You can't test whether someone has the minimal dancing skill of finding the beat in a piece of music without a personal evaluation of some sort. The bottom line is what's actually being taught, not what the teacher says she's teaching or what order she teaches it in.

It's not that I don't like the idea of an international certifying body, but who gets to decide what criteria will be used? Who will prepare the material so that dancers can know what will be expected of them during evaluation? What will be the procedure for getting certified and staying certified? What happens to teachers who don't pass the test? What provisions for remedial retraining are going to be offered so that people who don't pass can get themselves to a state where they can be certified? Some of these offenders have been teaching for years and have a lot of identity and ego tied up in this dance. They're not just going to quit if some unsolicited know-it-alls decide they're not good enough.

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I think this latter question exposes the real problem in the plan. With competence spread so far across the board in our current situation, pretty much the only way this would work is to have a grand "Everybody out of the pool, and no one gets back in until you've been certified" initiative. If we don't want to grandfather in the current teachers (which sort of defeats the point if you're trying to weed out the incompetent ones who are working now, not just the ones who may work in the future), what happens to the dancers who don't pass? Who's going to stop teachers who are already teaching from continuing to work even if they don't meet the new standards? How many of the existing teachers will get on board with this program if there's a chance they won't pass?

And who's going to inform Fifi and Dina that they don't have enough experience in the academic theory of teaching and human physiology to get certified? If you try to define a system full of exceptions, it won't work, because Betsy in the Boondocks who doesn't know what she's doing but does it anyway is likely to assume she's "exceptional" enough to qualify. Why shouldn't she? There's a very good chance Betsy has never been told otherwise. No matter what cracked-out mess she's dragged on stage, has anyone ever told her she was wrong or incompetent for doing it? Probably not. If she's gotten any feedback at all during her training, it was probably tepid, impersonal corrections and a lot of "That was beautiful!," not any sort of honest assessment of where she stands in terms of other dancers and what she needs to do differently to improve. Very few teachers have the audacity to be candid with their students, even in private lessons. Maybe when we design this magical standard we ought to throw a personality assessment onto the list, too. Are you assertive enough to correct a student? Can you say no to students without worrying they're going to take their business elsewhere and backstab you for being a hater? Are your personal convictions strong enough to stand up to the insistent market pressure to lower them?

The priority for culling the herd isn't to start with the teachers who have a few holes in their knowledge but are conscientious and trying to fill them, or the teachers who have spectacularly compensating experience that makes for a lack elsewhere. It's to start with the hacks and quacks who don't know better and don't know they don't know better and/or don't care. How do we fix THEM?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

They're not just going to quit if some unsolicited know-it-alls decide they're not good enough.

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Well, if a certifying organisation (we'll call it Organisation X) is something people are interested in, it certianly wouldn't be run by "some unssolicited know-it-alls". The members would be reputable dancers from multiple with a lot of time and energy to put into a volunteer project who's only goal would be to look at existing teaching methodology and courses and place them on a list of they feel they are safe, appropriate, culturally grounded, technically accurate and so forth. There were be boogles and boogles of planning and drafting. Organisation X would not create or sell programs, just look at those submitted by instructors. Mind you, it would take TIME and energy and knowledge, but ultimately, roughly--very very roughly, programs/courses/methodologies would be evaluated like any other dance method that tries to join a set organisation. You would have to submit a course outline, submit your training/performing history, submit samples of classes doing your methodology/course/program, submit samples of you teaching, submit samples of you dancing and so forth. For those who have not taught before, there can even be a mentoring scheme of some sort set up. Again, it would take planning and energy to work out the details, but I think it's a step in the right direction.