Thread: Please ! No Choreography !!!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I really dislike choreography workshops unless the teacher adds a layer of instruction on top of the choreo. In other words, if the sole thing that occurs during the workshop is running to and fro trying to remember what comes next, I hate it.

The only time I like choreo in workshops is when the choreo is second in importance to something else. For example, if a simple choreo is taught and the instructor then teaches some technique to layer it on top (such as musicality, stage presence, etc) I might find it palatable. Or, if the instructor says each time she introduces a new move, "I used this move with this part of the music because..." I might like it.

My distaste for choreo isn't due to laziness. It's due to the fact that I've taken too many choreo workshops in the past in which I emerged feeling like I'd just spent 4 hours learning a choreo that I didn't particularly like, in a style I wasn't fond of, and with musical interpretation that didn't inspire me. I have become VERY choosy in which choreo workshops I'll attend.

Ditto, Shira! I have come to hate choreo workshops,f:: avoid them like the plague! Very seldom have I encountered simple choreo in a workshop taught with variations or musicality or stage presence you describe. So, just don't go to them anymore. If there is a performer I want to see, I'll pay for the show, but not take the workshop............

Originally Posted by ouroboros

I pick up choreographies pretty easily so my reason for not preferring choreography workshops is that I'm not interested in performing someone else's choreography.
My reason for liking choreography workshops is that I get an insight into the interpretation of music and a dance thought up by someone else. I put that info into my subconscious "data bank".

Me too----exactly. Interesting for me to see another's interpretation. Also, I love taking out bits of 'ography and steps I've learned and using them in my own stuff, with my style.....

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

I didn't say UK dancers were lazy, I said they were mentally lazy. In general they are. In all the years I've been teaching, it still amazes me that lots of students still prefer "line dance belly dance' to actually learning.

Line Dance Belly Dance, if you haven't sussed it, is my term for those dreadful repetitive classes where 'follow the leader' is the norm. I know teachers with HUGE classes because they adhere to this style. They don't teach technique...they lead the herd. People love it. It's safe and easy and makes 'em feel good. They come away fully exercised....physically at least. Musical interpretation? Improvisation? Different styles? Rhythms? Technique? Who? What? Where?

Oh I see what you mean. Are they maybe scared rather than mentally lazy? Or perhaps they lack the natural creativity to interpret and improvise. I remember once listening to some Cello music, and it was really sad, and somehow reminded me of a battle, and perhaps grief afterwards. My b/f at that time (a very straight laced banker type) could just not hear anything in the music at all. We looked at the CD card (I think he thought I was making it up) and it was about war and remembrance.

I vote technique & combinations.. I only take choreography workshops so I can learn some combinations. Then I forget the actual choreography. I like making my own or improvising.
I love the quote from Artemis <<(Nimah wrote: "I think Artemis really hit the nail on the head when she explained in a workshop why she teachers combinations, but not choreography. If you teach someone your choreography, that person is just telling your story in your words. If you teach someone technique and combinations, you're giving her the tools to tell her own story. (I suppose that kind of relates to the old, "If you give a person a fish, they eat for a day, but if you teach them to fish, they eat for a lifetime" saying, eh?)">>
I have taken workshops with Artemis, and she is great (the technique focus really "stuck" some new stuff and helped polish some old stuff.. I feel like I retained more info).

Deleted

The most useful choreography workshops I've attended have been broken down into two parts. The morning class would drill basics and combinations. The afternoon class would take the morning's drills and combinations and put them into a choreography. This format gives both types of instruction (hopefully peppered with lots of good background and insights). Having the choreography section in the afternoon provides further insight into the instructor's interpretation.

I love the analogy to storytelling btw. I always tell my new students that learning this dance is like learning a second (aka foreign) language.

I have come around on choreography workshops. That said, a bad choreography doesn't teach me anything. If someone isn't amazing at choreography, I'd rather have combos and technique. But if someone is good at choreography and can explain the choices, if they feel right with the music, open me up to a new way of doing something - i usually leave with some new combos & moves and ideas for ways to handle certain things in music.

I think people can be close-minded to choreography especially if it's difficult for them. They may not realize what the benefits are. As someone else mentioned, the Dina workshop in Montreal was basically us following Dina's spontaneous choreography (for her, it was improv - for us, it was choreography). I got SO much out of that workshop just to see how Dina would respond to music and put combinations together.

The best workshops start with technique, then combinations using that technique, then choreography using those combos. I really think that's the best way to teach.

I did go to a Morocco workshop lately (someone else mentioned her - lizajuk i think). It was the easiest way to memorize with all that repetition and it was definitely a workout, but I got a little bored of all the repetition. So the jury is out on that. I think it was good for me, but it did feel like work.

Lately I have been disappointed in my own improv. I used to think it was the ultimate, to hear the music and respond immediately. But lately I've noticed that there is a lot of music where you need to know what's coming up next and plan for it in order to get the maximum impact. I have been working with choreography videos, not so that I can replicate them exactly, but so that I can be challenged to do fancier footwork, difficult moves, things I wouldn't make myself do in an improv session. At first I feel like a robot following along, but as I grow comfortable in the choreography (I'll do the same one every day for a week or so), I start to dance within it and get more comfortable. I'm working on Jillina's Lebanese Pop Choreo DVD right now, and it's forcing me to do a lot more turns and arabesques, and fast transitions. I wouldn't do these in my dance because they take so much thought and planning for me to be able to do them well, but if I keep doing this DVD, I think that I'll start spontaneously arabesquing and turning more confidently.

Of course I've also been drilling as well. Overall, I'm overhauling my practice sessions because I've done about a year of just "turn on the music and dance to it" and I"m not seeing a lot of growth.

Originally Posted by mekyria

I think the problem might be with the level of the students in the workshops and the level of the teacher instead of with what is taught in a workshop.

I think this is likely the bottom line also... Choreo involves technique, combos and interpretation all. This is how I learned how to put a dance together... in fact, I once had a private with Virginia of Miami on how to dance improvisationally and her first piece of advice was "Learn many many different choreographies." She's right her combos show up in my own dance and so do those of others I've studies with... I think learning choreo is a bit of a catch 22 -- you can't do it till you start doing it... or something like that. I also agree with Tedi that the best workshops start with technique/combos/transitions first then move to the structure of the piece in the 2nd half or so. Virginia uses several different songs during the technique/combo portion of her workshops so we're exposed to a variety of music that a particular combo would be appropriate in (I'm a big Virginia fan, if you can't tell.)

If the level of the choreo is challenging, at least you are seeing how this particular dancer is interpreting music. I spent my first 20 weeks at class with the same choreo to the same music. It was broken down so much that I didn't even know what came next when we danced at the Hafla. Plus I had learnt nothing that I could translate.
however then learning combos with same teache in next class, I hadn't a clue what to do with them. So I sat myself down with as many performance dvds as poss to look at how to fit dance to music, expression etc.
However, choreo workshops with local teachers tend not to be inspiring. Often done to Shakira or similar, the end result is you have learnt a dance which has had to be simple enough to be learnt in 2 hours, but which you are never going to remember and use again.
I would love to go to choreos with top teachers, as I am sure that there would be memorable and inspiring fragments to remember.

Hi JenC there are lots of classes doing choreos with top teachers down south too. Get yourself along to one of them !!! I run classes with top teachers only as south as Penrith at the moment...

I like a bit of choreo, it makes me feel like I have been dancing in my dance class, which is kinda the point. It doesn't have to be a huge complex choreography though, I would rather something simple that puts the move into context. To use the story analogy, it's like being told how to spell the words, and then shown how they work in a sentence, which allows you to go off and tell your own story. I find the little snippets of choreo in class sneakily teaches me how movements can fit together, so I find it easier to use them myself.

Some examples of good choreo classes I have done: A 3 hour workshop, which involved some foundation moves, some combinations and travelling moves, then for the last hour we learned a choreography that used everything we had learned, it was a whole song choreo, but it repeated a little (one example of repetition was a section being danced in pairs facing each other, and as singles facing the front). By the end of it I had practiced some movements, learned some movements *and* danced for an entire track, which was very satisfying.
A 1 hour class where we practiced some moves then learned 3 16 bar choreos, that could be mixed and matched (running them together in different orders) so we learned them all one at a time, learning different transitions, travelling moves and arms, then at the end put them all together and realised quite how much we had learned.

I don't want to go away and dance these class choreos myself, but I can use elements of them, and they gave me a lot of confidence to start "telling my own stories".

Hrm... I don't see technique having to be divorced from choreography. A good, short choreography can teach a bunch of new techniques - and can help with multi-level workshops. Doing it over and over again allows the students to both learn the choreography and the techniques.

In a really well done choreography, the lower level students will get an introduction to how the music is interpreted with basic movements/combinations they may not have previously while the layering that the lower level students aren't going to be able to do show the advanced student the more subtle aspects of musical interpretation. Of course, I got spoiled with a workshop with Dahlena. As to being exhausted? Dahlena has more energy than most people in their 20s! I saw several pro dancers (not just bellydance) not able to keep up with her energy levels. She also has eyes in the back of her head, so she is able to really help all the students there. (And, remarkably, she seemed to be able to assess skill levels very quickly and tailor advice appropriately.)

So, I wonder if the students are really just not feeling like they are getting enough technique out of the choreographies being taught?

I agree with you, MLowsley. I still find learning "combos" an almost insulting concept, to be frank--as if given combinations of movements should be slotted into different kinds of music like verbal tics.

Technique can be and is successfully taught both through drills and through choreography. I would feel ripped off if any entire seminar were devoted to technique drills with no actual dancing.

People in poetry writing workshops and painting workshops study and maybe even memorize the poems or try to recreate the paintings of the artists they admire most--not because they want to go on recreating those professionally, but to really try to absorb what makes that artist great. You can't absorb that, IMHO, by just starting lots of sentences with an adjective because your favorite writer does, or covering every canvas with a wash of beige or whatever to start, just because your favorite painter does. This is trying to boil it down to tricks and gimmicks --or should I say "combos." You might experiment with that, but it's only a small part of what makes your favorite artist great. Tricks, gimmicks, combos, do not make artists great. Again, just my opinion.

OK. I'm the odd ball here. I like choreo workshops.

However, I added choreography to my class one term. My attendence dropped by half. I found out later that choreography can make students feel stressed and frazzeled. I eliminated that part. My class returned to its usual attendance.

Just a thought.

Zobeide
zobeide

Originally Posted by zobeide

I found out later that choreography can make students feel stressed and frazzeled.

I can understand that, but then it's a challenge isn't it? I wouldn't like to do 100% choreo and no thinking for myself, but I really enjoy learning a choreo every now and again; yes it's hard, but so is everything worth doing.

I have to say I don't care all that much for only choreo workshops either. I spend so much time trying to remember what comes next that I miss the whole point.

I've rarely been to a choreo workshop where I felt that I got my money's worth of things to take home and use in my own dance. So I don't usually go anymore. I will buy choreo dvds because that I can replay until I actually get it. Perhaps if teachers offered a dvd of the dance to students?

I like what Tedi mentioned about technique and combos that build to a choreo and would be much more likely to pay for such a workshop. I'd also be interested in more discussion of why the teacher chose this move for this music/style whatever so that even if I didn't really remember the choreo, I'd have the idea to take home and apply.

Ava Fleming blessed ATL with her presence this weekend. She focused on technique & combos and the last 30 mins of class we danced. I liked this set up. Everyone was given individual attention at some point in time and this really helped. We all agreed we thought we were using the correct muscles until she corrected us.

So I prefer a technique & combo class then use these moves into a short choreo.

Originally Posted by zobeide

OK. I'm the odd ball here. I like choreo workshops.

However, I added choreography to my class one term. My attendence dropped by half. I found out later that choreography can make students feel stressed and frazzeled. I eliminated that part. My class returned to its usual attendance.

Just a thought.

Zobeide
zobeide

I'm interested because all i can get around here is choreo based. On the other hand when one teacher did some technique classes, I again found that odd as I did not have a grounding in dancing for myself, either choreo or improvising, so i did not kow what to do with the combos. Also without a dance around them they seemed more related to the teacher's style (which isn't my preference)

what level are your students. do they dance independently of you?

Originally Posted by jencUK

I'm interested because all i can get around here is choreo based. On the other hand when one teacher did some technique classes, I again found that odd as I did not have a grounding in dancing for myself, either choreo or improvising, so i did not kow what to do with the combos. Also without a dance around them they seemed more related to the teacher's style (which isn't my preference)

what level are your students. do they dance independently of you?

Ah, that's really the question, isn't it?

Although not a workshop experience, for the first time ever I am bringing a very brief choreo to my level 1 class of mixed beginners.

There are three separate sessions this summer; during each session, we learn technique, make two combos and then string the combos into a choreography. Each session is self-contained, but at the end of the three sessions, they have the complete choreo. It is very low key (12 one-hour lessons to get the technique and the bones of the 1 1/2 minute choreo) and it's worked out so far.

But to be certain, I have a questionnaire to be completed after each 4-week session. I want the students to be absolutely honest in their assessments so that I can get an idea of whether or not this is something I should continue.

My workshop preference? Please! No Choreography!!!

I will temper that emphatic statement with "some choreo is okay," at the end of the workshop, but I prefer technique and 2-3 combos along with explanation of the music/movement choice -- this is info I can remember and use!

Deborah

Originally Posted by Cathy23

I still find learning "combos" an almost insulting concept, to be frank--as if given combinations of movements should be slotted into different kinds of music like verbal tics.

Technique can be and is successfully taught both through drills and through choreography. I would feel ripped off if any entire seminar were devoted to technique drills with no actual dancing.

People in poetry writing workshops and painting workshops study and maybe even memorize the poems or try to recreate the paintings of the artists they admire most--not because they want to go on recreating those professionally, but to really try to absorb what makes that artist great. You can't absorb that, IMHO, by just starting lots of sentences with an adjective because your favorite writer does, or covering every canvas with a wash of beige or whatever to start, just because your favorite painter does. This is trying to boil it down to tricks and gimmicks --or should I say "combos." You might experiment with that, but it's only a small part of what makes your favorite artist great. Tricks, gimmicks, combos, do not make artists great. Again, just my opinion.

At first, I was a little insulted at the insinuation that combos are worthless, but I understand your point. :Ahappy:

When I teach combos, it is with the understanding that the combo is not a monolithic dead thing with no life of its own. On the contrary, I implore my students to mix up the order of the movements (as long as it doesn't mess with the technique of the movement until they've learned more seques), do fewer or more of a particular movewithin the combo, find places in music to use the combo that are fast, slow, etc. Since I don't usually focus on choreo and emphasize improv instead, they are encouraged to create their own dances.

I agree heartily that technique drills and choreo are wonderful learning tools; after all, the basis of any choreo is a bunch of combos strung together into a cohesive whole. I also think a workshop choreo is a great way to express style and musicality, especially as the instructor explains why he/she selected these movements, these arm positions, etc.

Deborah

Hmm...this is definitely an interesting discussion.

For myself...I think what I prefer depends a lot on who's teaching the workshop. In general, what's appropriate...probably depends on a combination of who's teaching the workshop and what level the students are at.

Then there's also a question of whether the workshop participants themselves "get" the difference of how to approach different types of workshops.

Someone (I forget who...sorry!) mentioned Dina's workshops--this is a good example of where I think a certain amount "choreography" IS appropriate, and where the STUDENT needs to recognize how to approach the workshop. When you attend a workshop with a foreign master dancer like Dina or certain others, the point is not to try to memorize the "choreography" the individual teaches you (which may be, as in her case, constructed at least paritally on the fly). Rather, you need to focus on absorbing her *essence*. Use the choreography to get an understanding of how she hears and feels the music. Try to absorb some of the movements and feeling, maybe you'll pick out some combinations or elements that really speak to you, but for the love of all that is good, if you wind yourself up trying to get the *exact* choreography down *perfectly* and commit it to memory...you'll go nuts. And you won't get it right anyway. And if you try to perform it, you'll just end up looking like a fool anyhow because you'll have spent all your time focused on "step one-two-three turn-hip!" and have missed the essence and the whole point of the dance and the style.

Flip side...if the dance instructor is an American dancer and is more of a brilliant technician than necessarily someone with an especially unique way of hearing/feeling the music...well, the focus of what that person has to offer is probably going to be more on technique drills and perhaps combinations/how to put things together. I'm not interested in learning this person's choreography because I'm certainly not going to use it--but what they have to say/show about the technique, the approach, the way things go together may be interesting.

That said...I think choreography still isn't necessarily *terrible* in those situations...*if* the instructor doesn't use it as a crutch to get around teaching technique and combinations. I mean, if the entire focus of the workshop is to blow through an entire choreography and get it all out there, regardless of whether all the technique and combos are covered well, that seems less interesting. If, however, the individual is teaching technique and combos...and then starts stringing some of them together into a choreography...sometimes that *can* actually enhance memory/retention of some of the technique and combo drills. You won't use the choreo/all the parts together, and you can still pick and choose, but maybe you're likely to remember more of the bits and pieces you learned.

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

Hmm...this is definitely an interesting discussion.

For myself...I think what I prefer depends a lot on who's teaching the workshop. In general, what's appropriate...probably depends on a combination of who's teaching the workshop and what level the students are at.

. . . and so forth.

Excellent points -- well articulated!

Deborah

Well I would certainly appreciate less emphasis on choreo. my beginners class had never seen real BD until last session when teacher dressed up for us and did a couple of dances and spent 20 weeks learning the same dance. Although we touched on arm movements, we mainly practiced what was in the dance exactly as it was going to be.
Result, after this, I was still very much an absolute beginner because I had had no experience/practice in stringing moves together in different ways, to different music etc.
AND I didn't even know the choreo as we had broken it down so much I couldn't remember which bit came next!!!
However, everyone here teaches through choreo. you are just lucky to get someone who can realyy teach who will give you some combos etc as well.

Everyone has really interesting comments. I had never thought that choreography was a useful tool for going on in your dance life, but of course it is. I have seen students come and struggle and feel completely out of their depth as their teacher has never done a choreography with them at all. They go away worrying about memorizing the routine (which is an enabler, but not really the whole point), and how that was hard. Other students who have been through several choreos with their teachers come and 'get beyond' the memory issue and move on to look at the technique and combos in the choreography.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

I have seen students come and struggle and feel completely out of their depth as their teacher has never done a choreography with them at all. They go away worrying about memorizing the routine (which is an enabler, but not really the whole point), ... Other students who have been through several choreos with their teachers come and 'get beyond' the memory issue and move on ....

Good points.

I think here perhaps the instructor (whether it's a workshop or a regular class) can help by maybe setting the expectation early on...especially if she/he becomes aware that there's a mix of those types of students. Sometimes a simple acknowledgement from the instructor that she isn't expecting the students to learn and remember the choreo perfectly but rather to learn FROM the elements of choreography can give the students the permission they need to let go of that "I must remember this all in order" compulsion. If she says that, though she's giving the class the choreography and they're welcome to use it if they like, her purpose is to show movements, transitions and combinations, and that she hopes each student will take the pieces that speak to them and make them their own...well...that can sometimes help the student make the shift in frame-of-mind.

When you attend a workshop with a foreign master dancer like Dina or certain others, the point is not to try to memorize the "choreography" the individual teaches you (which may be, as in her case, constructed at least paritally on the fly). Rather, you need to focus on absorbing her *essence*. Use the choreography to get an understanding of how she hears and feels the music. Try to absorb some of the movements and feeling, maybe you'll pick out some combinations or elements that really speak to you, but for the love of all that is good, if you wind yourself up trying to get the *exact* choreography down *perfectly* and commit it to memory...you'll go nuts.


......ahhh thank you for this point. I understand every single point being made here from everyone. The more advanced I get the more I do appreciate choreography, and I don't try to remember the whole thing only what I need to get out of it. I don't ever perform other's choreographies or teach them but do get good ideas from them. As far as addressing the Egyptian instructors that teach only choreography you must understand that is their method of teaching, that is what they know, and some don't speak fluent English and this prohibits them from explaining all the technique etc., so what you can learn from them can only come from "following them" and trying to "catch their essence" and how "they interpret the music." If you are advanced enough you can learn moves and combos just from watching without explanation. And when you do learn choreography you ARE learning combos in the process. Take notes on what you want to remember. I find people are lazy when they video the choreography without trying too hard to learn it in class, so they can go home and learn it from the video. I don't want to dance exactly like another dancer, so I do not even want to see the choreography again. I just take what I learned in the workshop that day and let it absorb into me for me to express when the time arises. Please my fellow dancers please don't get frustrated when you can't learn the entire choreography, that really shouldn't be your goal. Just learn what you can
so you can incorparate it into your repertoire.
Happy Dancing!!!