Thread: Please ! No Choreography !!!

So some of you know that I run workshops with guest teachers, mainly egyptians or egyptian inspired teachers. So I've been looking at my feedback, and people are saying they do not want choreography classes. Or if they do want choreo, they only want a 2 hour class, no more.

I am really torn, because I *know* that people who are drilled through the choreo get the biggest benefit, often the teachers want to teach choreography too, possibly because they too feel that there are major benefits from it.

I used to hate choreo classes, but now I think it was because I was lazy, and wanted the fun element without the bother of using my brain.

Technique classes all too easily morph into entertainment classes, where we all bounce around, and it feels a bit difficult, and we come away feeling like we had a good time, but gaining nothing.

What would bhuz do?

Personally i hate choreography workshops. I can't remember it and i don't catch on quick to it either (and I look a dork!!).i like a well structured technique class or one that looks beyond the choreography into a style of dance -like ways to interpret songs or styles-I went to 2 great workshops with Yasmina one on dancing to Om Kalthoum and one on shaabi and I learned so much i could adapt to my own dance interpretation.If it must be choreography i like the teacher to go into what the words mean and about the style we are doing so I can take that to other pieces of music. I love background but then i know a lot of people don't but to me it increases my understanding and feeling.Don't think you can ever please everyone.

I dunno... I keep flipping back and forth on the idea. I'm not keen on performing another person's choreography - it's very rare these days that I do. So, in that sense, it's a waste.

BUT, if in the process of doing so, the instructor gives a solid breakdown of what she's doing, how and why... I do come away feeling as though I've learned something.

For example, if the workshop were on Khaliji or Tunisian, then it'd be nice to see a good song chosen that encompasses a variety of rhythms from within each style, technique, combinations, musicality, history of the dance, costumes, music sources, etc. If the instructor chose to use a choreography (or partial choreography) as a way to teach it, that's okay by me.

So, I'd say it depends upon why a choreography is being taught. I don't much care to just learn someone else's dance for the heck of it.

I think the 2 hours rule comes from just feeling so *fried* trying to learn a choreography for 4 hours, and leaving feeling like you still don't have it. The brain just doesn't successfully function that way for most folks. I think after the lunch break it's time to change the pace for better brain functioning.

I also feel explanation is important as well, what is the style, why this interpretation, etc. As artists, many of us want the tools to create, not a finished picture.

I also do not use the choreographies of others, so, the best I can get from a choreography driven workshop is combinations, sometimes new movements, and information about the interpretation and style.

I really dislike choreography workshops unless the teacher adds a layer of instruction on top of the choreo. In other words, if the sole thing that occurs during the workshop is running to and fro trying to remember what comes next, I hate it.

The only time I like choreo in workshops is when the choreo is second in importance to something else. For example, if a simple choreo is taught and the instructor then teaches some technique to layer it on top (such as musicality, stage presence, etc) I might find it palatable. Or, if the instructor says each time she introduces a new move, "I used this move with this part of the music because..." I might like it.

My distaste for choreo isn't due to laziness. It's due to the fact that I've taken too many choreo workshops in the past in which I emerged feeling like I'd just spent 4 hours learning a choreo that I didn't particularly like, in a style I wasn't fond of, and with musical interpretation that didn't inspire me. I have become VERY choosy in which choreo workshops I'll attend.

If that is what is in your feedback than run with it. People are telling you what they want and don't want. No matter what we think we *know* feedback can prove us wrong sometimes.

If you want to try something new, how about breaking into groups and having the girls (and guys!) come up with their own choreo. for each group and than FOR FUN put it together EVEN if it doesnt' fit. It gives everyone a chance to do something and show off moves they came up with for that section of music. It's still choreo. but it's done by different groups. I guess what I'm saying in short is, give each group a chunk of music, have them choreo. JUST that 2:30 and than when each group is done put it together and watch what happens.
Is that understandable?

I hate choreography workshops. I have a terrible memory when it comes to remembering the order of steps. I can remember every step..just never in order.
Also, if I don't like the choreography or if I feel that I'd do something entirely different with a particular part of the music, then I'll feel frustrated. I like technique workshops best. And I also like short combinations. I would really enjoy a technique/combinations workshop with combinations that consist of 2 or 3 steps only and then allowing the participants put them together at the end, in any order they choose.

Regards
Priscilla

I'm with Jessedan. Combinations and combinations that teach something are what work for me. Otherwise I'm blundering around like an idiot because I'm too busy trying to remember what comes next as opposed to trying to do it right. As a result, I don't remember the choreo, nor do I remember how to do it right and it thus becomes a waste of my time and money. But the combination approach helps me remember how to do it, let's me concentrate on doing it right, and best of all, I just might use that combination next time I solo!

For me, two hours is just not enough to learn a choreography, especially if I am not familiar with all of the movements already. I've been in frustrating workshops with a teacher who plows ahead trying to get through the choreography in the time allotted, ignoring the obviously floundering majority of students in the class.

I need a LOT of repetitions to learn a choreography and even with notes it can be difficult to remember and reconstruct something from a single workshop. Only with a companion video would it be possible for me.

It may not be an issue of laziness on the students' part but different styles of learning, different dance backgrounds, different approaches to the dance (improvisational or structred improv vs. choreography), plus the limited time available in a single workshop.

Also, I've heard as a rule of thumb, to allow at least one hour of instruction/practice for each minute of choreography.

So I feel your students' pain ,r:;

This is not to say that it's not worth learning choreos, just that it's difficult to do in a limited amount of time. I think there is a lot to be gained by learning them, I'm just not sure if a workshop is the best place to do that.

I've learned a lot from both formats, but I think choreography works best for me. I need to be working towards something, and I pick up on choreo very easily. I can learn a 4 minute choreography in 3 hours as long as the instructor is efficient. I listen to the music 10 times over immediately following the workshop and run through the routine in my mind. This is the best way for me to remember. Even if I don't use the whole routine (which I have done a few times, as long as the instructor gave permission...I've never done it anywhere other than a restaurant, but if it was a show I'd give credit), I can use a move or combo here or there.

That being said, you need to listen to what your students are saying. They're the customers so they should be happy with the product you're delivering.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

Technique classes all too easily morph into entertainment classes, where we all bounce around, and it feels a bit difficult, and we come away feeling like we had a good time, but gaining nothing.

Really???
In this case, there was something wrong with the way these technique classes were taught!
I teach technique workshops all the time and although I hope that my students have a good time, my classes are very structured and focussed and there is no aimless bouncing around.
And that's what I expect from every good dance teacher when she teaches technique.
It only morphs into an entertainment class if the teacher has no concept about what she really want to teach. But a technique class has to be well prepared just as a choreo class.

Personally, I don't hate choreo workshops but I never use the dances that are taught - I will pick up maybe 3 movements or combos that I like and incorporate them into my own choreographies.
And I agree with Shira that it would be nice to have explenations on why a certain movement was used.

Choreo is good if you learn a completely new style/folklore dance when you haven't yet gained the deeper understanding of this style so that you could make your own dance. But then again you need to know why certain movements were used.

I once took a weeklong with an Egyptian teacher who taught us one folklore choreo after the other - but without any background infos. "Now we do beduin dance" was about all we got. No details about what to wear, what music to use etc. In the end it was quite useless.

MEISSOUN

I also really dislike choreography workshops, for many reasons. I much prefer technique and combinations. I think Artemis really hit the nail on the head when she explained in a workshop why she teachers combinations, but not choreography. If you teach someone your choreography, that person is just telling your story in your words. If you teach someone technique and combinations, you're giving her the tools to tell her own story. (I suppose that kind of relates to the old, "If you give a person a fish, they eat for a day, but if you teach them to fish, they eat for a lifetime" saying, eh?)

I really learn choreography best in small chunks, repeated a lot, in several different sessions. I have no problem learning a choreography over a 6-week regular class session. But trying to learn a choreography in 2, 3, or 4 hours all at once doesn't work. Even if by some miracle I manage to execute the choreography correctly by the end of the workshop, it will evaporate from my brain and my muscle memory almost as soon as I walk out of the place.

A few years ago I hated choreo classes - not because I was lazy (I pick up choreographies pretty fast, the frustration at going so slow may have been part of it) but because I felt they didn't achieve much as more than technique classes and I never have any desire to perform someone else's chorography. That was when I was very much in my upward learning curve - my first teacher had taught me 4 years of listening to music and I was ready for some MOVES already!

Recently though, I softened. It depends who's choreography is - now when I've been to Fantasia, Summer school etc and you learn a bunch of moves thrown together by a UK teacher - I don't think the benefit anyone. You know the type 4 hip drops one side, 4 hip drops the other side, 4 camels this side etc. These are useful up to about intermediate level but beyond that students really need a challenge I'm not sure many home grown teachers are capable of choreographing. I know it sounds harsh. However, learning a choreography from Randa, Yasmina, Samesem, Leila, Khaled, Raqia - they are really worth while and challenging. For what it's worth as a technique-phile I enjoyed all of Khaled's choreographies this time round.

I have recently had problems, almost the opposite with a regular class. Apparently good posture is 'too easy' for them (pity they still can't do it) and they haven't learnt anything if its not a choreography. Weirdly I thought I was unusual in preferring technique . .I'm not sure Edinburgh is representative of the UK as a whole.

Bottom line is students across the board seem less and less prepared to put any work in and have an increasing sense of entitlement - they want to be magically good without putting any effort in. Since teaching the last year or so and getting some recent violent reactions to drilling (gee you have to repeat a move to learn it?) I have begun to appreciate the usefulness of a well crafted choreography for drilling concepts and moves without the student realising they are 'drilling' and 'learning that pointless stuff about the music'.

Z

I pick up choreographies pretty easily so my reason for not preferring choreography workshops is that I'm not interested in performing someone else's choreography.
My reason for liking choreography workshops is that I get an insight into the interpretation of music and a dance thought up by someone else. I put that info into my subconscious "data bank".

If we assume that most students who attend workshops have some years under their belt, mostly I think we attend workshops that introduce us to a new facet to our dance or that will add more to the repetoire of our dance.
I like Khaled's because he adds combinations , almost mini choreographies as well as sharpening technique.
Personally I was always rather anti choreo but again personally recently I have started to structure more what I do as I am left not very happy with improv . dances I've done as I get lacksadasical and forget all the nice new moves and combos someone has has taught me!
That said I still wouldn't go to a 2 hour choreo workshop unless it was something very special. The only person who has ever taught me a choreo in a workshop that I felt good about was Rocky. Otherwise I think it's a waste of time as you rarely establish it in your brain if you even get through it. If I were a baby bellie I might be very satisfied to go to my very first workshop and learn a simple choreo to take away and do but otherwise nah...
Give me a specialist in say Ghawazee which I did at JoY with Maria or a getting inside of a dance like Oum with Sara.

I think the problem might be with the level of the students in the workshops and the level of the teacher instead of with what is taught in a workshop. What I've read in the replies above sofar comes down to:

-I'm a newbie, I'm not ready for choreography
-I get frustrated because I'm trying to remember a choreography instead of learning new moves and combinations
-I've been dancing X years, I have no interest in learning someone elses choregraphy if I can't fit it into my own style
-they are not 'fun'

pro choregraphy:
-if a teacher provides background information, explanation of lyrics and breaks down moves, a choreography can be used as a learning tool
-by learning someone elses choreo, you learn about how they interpret the music and how they combine moves
-a chore gives you the opportunity to dance in a style you haven't mastered (yet)


I've been in choreography workshops and in technique workshops. I like choreo workshops when the combinations are easy to use on their own in a different song/style and if they suprise me. For example, I went to a workshop and learned a choreography. I took two combinations from that choreography, adjusted them to my own taste and used it in a completely different song. But if I go to a workshop and someone interprets the music exactky the way I do and uses the same combinations, I would be disappointed.

On the other hand, I also hate a technique class without structure. How the hell am I supposed to remeber how to do a 'jiggly step'? Maybe choreo seems like an easy learning tool while it isn't. Maybe we need more experienced teachers that can offer students what they want: a well structured workshop with background information and enough technique/choreo to make you feel like you got value for your money.

I deliberately booked the choreo classes you arranged with Khaled because I wanted to learn choreo! I'm not sure if you wanted replies from Students or Instructors, but as a student I can say I don't understand why people don't like choreo.

To be fair, I took lessons for about three years and I can safely say almost all of that was technique. We very rarely put little dances together and had no opportunities to perform so it's really been a struggle for me knowing how a dance might be put together. I've performed a few times now, but I do find I tend to improvise than do any sort of choreo, because I have no practice in memorising it (at least not since I was 11 years old and did ballet!). I guess I'm at the intermediate going on to advanced (ish) stage where I know most of the basic movements, layering and such, but I need to know how to take it further.

I think zafirah (and others) raised a good point about skill level and knowlege of movements and so on. Maybe either people are so dedicated to bellydance and have advanced to a stage where they don't feel choreo is necessary. But then there's the other camp who don't like practising, learning technique and so on and therefore believe they are more advanced than they are, but then find the actual choreography too much of a challenge or too hard to pick up?

I never remember all the choreography and I do feel very awkward stumbling about in the class and focusing on several things at once. But when I get home I will remember techniques, combinations and this will inspire me to come up with something else. If the music is explained along with titbits of technique it can be very useful. I mean, handing out the building blocks is fine but getting a good range of examples of how they are put together is just as important, if you get what I mean.

I'd be very sorry if choreo classes went out the window.

I think teaching choreography is one of the best ways to teach all the other stuff--technique, musicality, and so-called "combos" or "moves" (though I don't really like those terms). You don't have to go on to perform the choreo you learned (or didn't fully learn) but in going through it in detail you have been exposed to both the shape and the texture of the teacher's interpretation of the music. Isn't that what we are trying to absorb? "Combinations" and "moves" in isolation may be the tools we can use to write our own stories but no matter how many sounds or individual words you learn in isolation, I don't think anyone can learn to tell stories without hearing a lot of them over and over, maybe even more or less memorizing some, and studying the storytelling craft intimately from other masters. Technique drills are critical as well but I really think both are essential.

Originally Posted by Cathy23

I think teaching choreography is one of the best ways to teach all the other stuff--technique, musicality, and so-called "combos" or "moves" (though I don't really like those terms). You don't have to go on to perform the choreo you learned (or didn't fully learn) but in going through it in detail you have been exposed to both the shape and the texture of the teacher's interpretation of the music. Isn't that what we are trying to absorb? "Combinations" and "moves" in isolation may be the tools we can use to write our own stories but no matter how many sounds or individual words you learn in isolation, I don't think anyone can learn to tell stories without hearing a lot of them over and over, maybe even more or less memorizing some, and studying the storytelling craft intimately from other masters. Technique drills are critical as well but I really think both are essential.

Good points! I like the "story" analogy.

My students learned a workshop choreography that had some (in my mind) bad transitions. They had difficulty with the choreography's flow and I pointed out why. They (hopefully) learned something about transitions (when they DON'T work in this case).

I hate choreo workshops. I love techniques followed by short combos using those techniques and a good heaping helping of background/history/culture on top of that. Artemis does extremely well with this format, and even a basics workshop from her is wonderful. To date my two favorite workshops have been Artemis Mourat (actually, I've had them with her more than once and would take her every time I'm able) and Alexandra King. I came away from both ladies' workshops feeling like "Wow! I really learned something."

For those who say, well, you can learn combos from choreo or learn how the dancer interprets the music...I can learn combos from being taught combos and come away with more of them than a choreo I'm trying to just keep up with. I can learn some of how the dancer interprets the music from those as well and learn more about how they interpret it from watching them dance.

Everyone learns differently. Some prefer technique and some prefer choreo. I think technique coupled with combos gives the best of both worlds.

Originally Posted by Cathy23

I think teaching choreography is one of the best ways to teach all the other stuff--technique, musicality, and so-called "combos" or "moves" (though I don't really like those terms). You don't have to go on to perform the choreo you learned (or didn't fully learn) but in going through it in detail you have been exposed to both the shape and the texture of the teacher's interpretation of the music. Isn't that what we are trying to absorb? "Combinations" and "moves" in isolation may be the tools we can use to write our own stories but no matter how many sounds or individual words you learn in isolation, I don't think anyone can learn to tell stories without hearing a lot of them over and over, maybe even more or less memorizing some, and studying the storytelling craft intimately from other masters. Technique drills are critical as well but I really think both are essential.

As a linguist finishing a thesis on storytelling, your post resonates with me on several levels :) Although I do not perform others' choreos, with the exception of the first one I learned from video many years ago, "Enta Omri" by Raquia Hassan, I do enjoy informative choreo workshops just for the reasons you mention above. At the recent Dina workshop in Montreal, for example, I learned a great deal about Dina's style and musical interpretation thanks to her explanations of some of the lyrics we were dancing to as well as her mind-blowing performances, both spontaneous (after the Saturday workshop, which was especially moving), and at her show that evening.


Khalida

Although, I have not been to a workshop yet. I can't answer if I would like choreo or not. It depends on what it is. If it was something I was not familar with I hope that I will learn what will be in the workshop, before actuall doing it.

In private class, I learn new moves, practice the ones I know and the ones I need work on, and learn and practice choreo. In a group class it is usuall practice the ones I know and learn and practice choreo.

Guess, when I do go to a workshop I better ask lots of questions so I am not disappointed.

Good topic! Thanks...

Originally Posted by Candi

Personally i hate choreography workshops.

Me too. The best way to benefit from technique classes is to drill them. That's when people get really lazy, when they won't drill. They just want to bop around.

Originally Posted by zafirah

Since teaching the last year or so and getting some recent violent reactions to drilling (gee you have to repeat a move to learn it?) I have begun to appreciate the usefulness of a well crafted choreography for drilling concepts and moves without the student realising they are 'drilling' and 'learning that pointless stuff about the music'.

Z

I've just set up an advanced workshop in Warrington. Students are only allowed to attend if they are prepared to drill. I don't accept anyone below 3 years' experience and they are expected to perform for the class and be assessed. I'm amazed at how mentally lazy UK students can be. Drilling is the only way to instill the movement correctly into the brain. All other dance training requires this.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

I've just set up an advanced workshop in Warrington. Students are only allowed to attend if they are prepared to drill. I don't accept anyone below 3 years' experience and they are expected to perform for the class and be assessed. I'm amazed at how mentally lazy UK students can be. Drilling is the only way to instill the movement correctly into the brain. All other dance training requires this.

I'd love to let you loose on these particular students of mine. heh. They think I am evil because I drill (2-4 bar combinations that repeat on the other side so they can go on ad nauseum whilst i correct individually) for a 3 minute rhythm track and sometimes make them listen to music and think about it.

Z

Choreography can be a great way to learn new things. How to put moves together, different ways of talking/dancing. BUT I feel the need to modify choreographies, use them as a starting point, then change them to make them mine. I take bits and pieces and use them in other dances I do.

Different people learn different ways, but drilling usually always helps. I do better at remembering longer phrases, with repetitions, than 1 of these, 1 of those, a bit of this, some of that, etc etc etc. Though even then if I can get a couple things out of it I'm happy.

Well I haven't read all the posts so sorry if this is repetitive but without going into the pro's and con's of choreo. I say cater to the needs, wants and desires of your workshop attendees. They are giving you the feedback that you want and it seems like a key ingredient for having successful workshops in the future. Other wise don't be surprised when no one signs up for a choreo workshop.

Go with your feedback, but try to read into why they don't want choreography if you can... did you ask any further clarifying questions?

In really like choreography for the reasons cathy23 said But...

After so many years of studying with Egyptian teachers and now, more so than say 5 years ago, there are so many teaching around the world trawling out the same choreos from dallas to perth to singapore that I'm over it! I want originality and something different from everyone else!

I love my Egyptian dance but it seems that there is too much of a formula in the workshops now and it revolves around having a pre-packaged 'style' (you name it 'baladi' 'classical oriental' 'shaabi' 'melaya') given to you in a nice neat choreo with no real depth because it's simply a cash cow being flown around the world.

I still go because I'm a sucker... and because we are not so inundated with Egyptian instructors here is Aus that I can afford to pass up opportunities but still... grrrr.

The last choreo workshop I really got alot out of was Dr Mo because he drills the technique for the choreo and he also incorporates 'how to choreograph' elements into his teaching... fabulous man and teacher.

I understand why some people have problems drilling. Most of us live fairly sedentary lives nowadays, I would not say that UK dancers are lazy, I've been to classes all over europe and egypt and people just get tired, they sit down, or leave the room at the end of a taxing class. We are to some extent athletes and fitness can be an issue - students are told to come if they are at X level, however there is a lot of variation in age, fitness, are you knackered from the weeks other commitments.

Hello Sujhata, I am glad you came. Do not worry, I am not going to totally get rid of choreo (as I believe that it really benefits people), there may be a reduction though. Particularly I'm thinking not 4 hours all choreo on the same day.

Caroline.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

I understand why some people have problems drilling. Most of us live fairly sedentary lives nowadays, I would not say that UK dancers are lazy, I've been to classes all over europe and egypt and people just get tired, they sit down, or leave the room at the end of a taxing class. We are to some extent athletes and fitness can be an issue - students are told to come if they are at X level, however there is a lot of variation in age, fitness, are you knackered from the weeks other commitments.

Caroline.

I didn't say UK dancers were lazy, I said they were mentally lazy. In general they are. In all the years I've been teaching, it still amazes me that lots of students still prefer "line dance belly dance' to actually learning.

Line Dance Belly Dance, if you haven't sussed it, is my term for those dreadful repetitive classes where 'follow the leader' is the norm. I know teachers with HUGE classes because they adhere to this style. They don't teach technique...they lead the herd. People love it. It's safe and easy and makes 'em feel good. They come away fully exercised....physically at least. Musical interpretation? Improvisation? Different styles? Rhythms? Technique? Who? What? Where?