Thread: Teacher Training - what happened to my teacher

The Teacher Training thread reminded me of this, I'll relate it as clearly as I can, tho it was a long time ago
Back in the early to mid '80's my teacher did a project for her masters in dance education that involved filming bellydance classes of local teachers. She then discussed their methods in her thesis, I guess. She told me that not one of the teachers she filmed asked for any feedback from her regarding their methods; she found that amazing. I do too - I think if I were to be in that situation, I'd definitely have a chat afterwards with whoever was filming -

Teacher training was not prevalent back then; I think she was one of the "early adopters" of the idea that bellydance teachers needed to "learn to teach" and to approach classes with a system in place.

I seem to remember that she sent Bobby pages and pages of notes on how he could teach correctly. :-/

On several occasions I've had my classes observed by students on the JWAAD Diploma course. Every time, I've asked them to let me have a copy of their Teacher Observation Assignment afterwards, so that I can see where I could improve my teaching. NONE of them has ever sent it to me!

Originally Posted by anthea

The Teacher Training thread reminded me of this, I'll relate it as clearly as I can, tho it was a long time ago
Back in the early to mid '80's my teacher did a project for her masters in dance education that involved filming bellydance classes of local teachers. She then discussed their methods in her thesis, I guess. She told me that not one of the teachers she filmed asked for any feedback from her regarding their methods; she found that amazing. I do too - I think if I were to be in that situation, I'd definitely have a chat afterwards with whoever was filming -

Interesting. Was she a comparative newcomer to belly dance (as opposed to mainstream academic dance)? Was she so enamored of modern/ballet/jazz dance that her performances looked like one of those Western forms with stray hip drops thrown in? If so, maybe the belly dance teachers believed that her input wouldn't apply very well to belly dance?

I don't find this especially surprising. Many dancers don't seek out feedback (especially if there's a chance it won't be complimentary) on their dancing, so why would they want it on their teaching? For a dance that is promoted as being empowering to women, we encourage a very NON-proactive mind set. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all! Even if your silence stunts the other person's growth in the long run!

In general, women are not good at candor because we've been conditioned to think it is rude. We don't want to say it. We don't want to hear it. To some extent, this tendency is probably magnified by any creative endeavor. When you do something that makes you emotionally vulnerable, you don't want another person to find fault with it, and since under normal circumstances, we're not a publicly criticized endeavor where professional experts publish their opinions on our work, we never have to toughen up to the same commercial reality as other art forms. We've built a nice, fluffy, pink cocoon around ourselves. Students rarely get graded on their abilities, so the least we can do is not grade the teacher in return.

Originally Posted by bintbeled

I seem to remember that she sent Bobby pages and pages of notes on how he could teach correctly. :-/

...And then Jasmin Jahal started telling the story about the time Bobby felt she wasn't engaging her abs enough when she undulated so he punched her in the gut. Hmm, yes, I could see where there could have been a little room for improvement in his teaching strategy.

I think it is easy to criticize a teacher if you only take/watch a couple of her classes. The observer might decide that breakdown/instruction is incomplete, when in fact the relevant breakdown/instruction took place in a previous class or course.

I was in a class with a fellow student (who was very vocal about how she was a teacher herself), who kept "coaching" our EXCELLENT bellydance teacher as to how she could improve her teaching by breaking things down, or by completely revamping her class plan. When this student was told that the move was broken down in the two previous weeks, she complained that she had been too busy to attend! She also wanted basic movement breakdowns (that would have been covered in the previous class level).

Not every teacher is right for every student, and no one class should be seen as representative of a teacher's full inventory of dance skills or teaching techniques.

Every. Single. One. Of the good bellydance teachers that I have taken classes from have taken classes in teaching, as opposed to just teaching. My first teacher has a Master's in Education, so didn't really need to learn how to teach, in order to teach bellydance. She had to learn how to dance to do that.

And she's a better teacher than a dancer, and freely admits that.

Of course I also know *of* some teachers who reportedly don't work at learning how to teach, but they are few and far between and tend to not have many students.

Boston is rich in teachers, so it's not like there are one or two good ones out there.

I taught crisis prevention and intervention, as well as fitness before I ever taught dance. In those venues we had teacher evaluation forms for the ends of classes. Very, very frequently we received feedback that we were awesome and that was about it.

People forget that giving constructive criticism is an art, and it's not something that's taught very much. If the questionnaires are not written in a way to elicit the feedback, the person filling it out may not be able to add anything useful.

As a fitness instructor, you are required to attend ongoing education to maintain your certifications, going to train the trainers sessions, so your teaching is indeed critiqued in an environment of your peers, so you get a good idea of what to work on. In fact, in order to obtain your certification, you have to teach at least 1 combination to the teachers of the course. When you passed, your instructor had a solid reason to believe you could teach a class safely and effectively.

to the OP, was she a master teacher at the time of the filming? If she wasn't, why would the teachers ask *her* for feedback?

Originally Posted by kina

Of course I also know *of* some teachers who reportedly don't work at learning how to teach, but they are few and far between and tend to not have many students.

Most of the teachers I've known in small-market communities learned to teach by personal trial and error. Not that this isn't the case with everybody to some extent (each student is a little different), but we're talking lots of good intention and little formal training. Occasionally we're even talking about competitiveness that bred a peculiar form of hazing. "My teacher didn't teach me, so you can figure it out on your own, too." This last situation applied to both teaching and gigging. Withholding information is sometimes a form of market control.

In those venues we had teacher evaluation forms for the ends of classes. Very, very frequently we received feedback that we were awesome and that was about it.

People forget that giving constructive criticism is an art, and it's not something that's taught very much. If the questionnaires are not written in a way to elicit the feedback, the person filling it out may not be able to add anything useful.

Getting back to what I said about non-assertiveness, even if we instituted a worldwide system of making every BD class fill out evaluations, I suspect we'd get a distribution that was squashed up at the happy end of the scale. Some students would gush enthusiastically, some would check "Satisfactory" for everything, and not many would unload a lot of frustration or corrective suggestions. For one, this is a voluntary class. If you think the teacher is horrible, why come back? Even if you were gritting your teeth the whole time and enduring a really bad class, how many students would have the nerve to face a teacher again after being frank? The only reason students do it in college is they know the surveys are fairly anonymous and/or they won't be required to interact with that professor again.

to the OP, was she a master teacher at the time of the filming? If she wasn't, why would the teachers ask *her* for feedback?

This wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to answer anyway. Because sometimes "masters who teach" aren't "masters" at "teaching," and the perspective of someone who doesn't already know the material well enough to do the job for them is useful. Anybody who went to college probably had at least one professor who was very highly regarded in the field, but was a lousy teacher. Maybe he zoomed over material without remembering what it was like to not have this stuff make sense to you, or maybe he'd been teaching the class for so long, he was bored with it and going through the motions, or perhaps worse, randomly trying a series of hit-or-miss teaching experiments to liven the material up for himself. As a teacher, you need multiple levels of feedback--your superiors, your peers, and those underneath you who are your consumers.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Because sometimes "masters who teach" aren't "masters" at "teaching," and the perspective of someone who doesn't already know the material well enough to do the job for them is useful.

This is true. Some of the people I have sought out have not been the best of teachers, so there is something within this which puts the responsibility back on us to understand how we learn.

By understanding ourselves and how we learn, we must also remember that this does not nesessarily mean 'what is easiest for us'. Learning is a process and not always an easy one.

Anybody who went to college probably had at least one professor who was very highly regarded in the field, but was a lousy teacher. Maybe he zoomed over material without remembering what it was like to not have this stuff make sense to you, or maybe he'd been teaching the class for so long, he was bored with it and going through the motions, or perhaps worse, randomly trying a series of hit-or-miss teaching experiments to liven the material up for himself. As a teacher, you need multiple levels of feedback--your superiors, your peers, and those underneath you who are your consumers.

There is also something in there about 'challenge'.. the need to challenge and be challenged.

Boredom often sets in for both students and teachers when the challenge becomes absent or defunct.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

...And then Jasmin Jahal started telling the story about the time Bobby felt she wasn't engaging her abs enough when she undulated so he punched her in the gut. Hmm, yes, I could see where there could have been a little room for improvement in his teaching strategy.

Did you hear this story FROM Jasmin?

The "punch in the gut" is actually a feint. It helps your body figure out how to contract away from the incoming "punch." I use it a lot with students who can't figure out how to contract their upper abs.

Bobby used a lot of unconventional ways to get good results from students. He knew what each student needed....

Originally Posted by tigerb

Did you hear this story FROM Jasmin?

Yes, she told it in 2008 when she was at Island of Isis. From the way she explained it, it was an actual punch, not a feint, though.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Most of the teachers I've known in small-market communities learned to teach by personal trial and error. Not that this isn't the case with everybody to some extent (each student is a little different), but we're talking lots of good intention and little formal training. Occasionally we're even talking about competitiveness that bred a peculiar form of hazing. "My teacher didn't teach me, so you can figure it out on your own, too." This last situation applied to both teaching and gigging. Withholding information is sometimes a form of market control.



Getting back to what I said about non-assertiveness, even if we instituted a worldwide system of making every BD class fill out evaluations, I suspect we'd get a distribution that was squashed up at the happy end of the scale. Some students would gush enthusiastically, some would check "Satisfactory" for everything, and not many would unload a lot of frustration or corrective suggestions. For one, this is a voluntary class. If you think the teacher is horrible, why come back? Even if you were gritting your teeth the whole time and enduring a really bad class, how many students would have the nerve to face a teacher again after being frank? The only reason students do it in college is they know the surveys are fairly anonymous and/or they won't be required to interact with that professor again.



This wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to answer anyway. Because sometimes "masters who teach" aren't "masters" at "teaching," and the perspective of someone who doesn't already know the material well enough to do the job for them is useful. Anybody who went to college probably had at least one professor who was very highly regarded in the field, but was a lousy teacher. Maybe he zoomed over material without remembering what it was like to not have this stuff make sense to you, or maybe he'd been teaching the class for so long, he was bored with it and going through the motions, or perhaps worse, randomly trying a series of hit-or-miss teaching experiments to liven the material up for himself. As a teacher, you need multiple levels of feedback--your superiors, your peers, and those underneath you who are your consumers.

Yes, but my question was "was she a master teacher?" Not was she a master, but specifically, a master at teaching.

if you don't know how to teach, you're perspective in terms of feedback is limited, at best. You can tell when you don't get something, but not necessarily the why behind it.

A master teacher, in any vocation, can give effective constructive feedback that will enhance the teachers abilities. Not just some random, "well, i didn't like the way you taught that hip drop because I didn't get it", which would be valid for *that* student's learning and letting the teacher know that s/he needs to consider the approach to that individual's learning, but not that the teachers approach overall is invalid.

Anybody who went to college probably had at least one professor who was very highly regarded in the field, but was a lousy teacher.

This would also be because in universities it's your research profile, not your teaching, that is deemed most important. For many professors there is no benefit to becoming good at teaching.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

This would also be because in universities it's your research profile, not your teaching, that is deemed most important. For many professors there is no benefit to becoming good at teaching.

Ain't that the truth! When I got my master's in Arab Studies at Georgetown, there were 3 professors I especially wanted to study with. The one that I thought would be stuffy was a real delight, and the one whose academic works I cherish was a totally indifferent instructor.