Thread: Warming up without forward bends

Since June I've been suffering from a neck/back/shoulder/arm thing and I've been seeing a physical therapist. My PT thinks I have an injured disc around C7 and in addition to a repetitive stress injuy for sitting at a computer improperly for hours. Anyway, my she told me to stop doing several things when I warm up to dance (and I lead warm-ups in my classes, too).

I am no longer supposed to bring my chin to my chest or roll my neck around in circles (bringing my neck to the sides is fine). She also told me not to do forward bends (aka inversions). I do these all the time to warm up the back of the legs and to stretch the lower back. Now I feel like there is a hole in my warm up and I want to replace it with something that will stretch similiarly...Or maybe I don't need to replace them or do them at all? She told me I can come down at a 90 degree angle and stretch my hamstrings with a flat back, but I am not supposed to round my back or put my head below my hips.

So does anyone lead safe warm-ups without forward bends? It seems like every class I have ever been to uses them somehow. Also, any suggestions on what to replace these bends with in order to stretch the lower back?

Thanks!

I've never had a class that didn't use forward bends, but a doctor or physical therapist should be able to advise you on what is best for your particular back injury. In terms of stretching the hamstrings, you can achieve some of the same benefit from a slant board or from lying on your back and doing certain exercises (raise your straight legs toward your head to stretch the hamstrings, curl the knees to the chest to relax the lower back, etc.), but those options may not work in a classroom.

THe only stretches you should be doing during a warm up are dynamic stretches. An example of a great dynamic stretch (that I start all my classes with) is reaching up to the ceiling, one arm at a time, dropping the hip on the same side.

I warm the hip joint up with a gentle joint mobilization exercize that also works on balance and core stabilization. Stand on one leg (be sure not to lock the knee) and bend the other leg slightly and draw circles with your knee in front of the body. Keep the free foot close to the weighted knee.

I do small plies in first position (without turnout) and in second position (with only a little turnout) to warm the leg muscles up.

Well, when I taught I never did any kind of stretching in a warm up because the spectre of Kashmir loomed over me, saying no, no no. See also that head roll/neck warmup, because I had been told it was not good for one. BUT, the primary reason was that I like a more active, blood-pumping warmup, though I was never particularly aerobic.

You can warm up the legs, all over, just by walking briskly. One great warmup that many teachers I know have used often, especially in workshops, involves simply walking rapidly and in a dancerly fashion around in a big circle. Arms can be raised and circled, directions changed and you can walk backwards too.

Bending and straightening the legs is also good, either as a plie or sitting on the ground. Hadia has a really good allover standing warmup movement that I like very much, but I'd be a wee bit careful if your neck is causing you problems. It is hard to describe in words, but you basically bend and straighten the legs, shifting your weight from side to side, while describing a big figure eight in the air in front of you with both arms as your torso twists from side to side. It's like a bend, sweep up, bend, sweep up sort of deal. Actually, Hadia's "system" DVD has a full warmup and cooldown that includes one designed for people who need to sit. It's quite good.

Shimmies warm up the legs and hips!

I second Zummarrad on the usefulness of Hadia's warm-up. Another dvd I've found helpful is this one:
http://www.worlddancenewyork.com/pro...nette-fletcher
I tend to use a lot of these exercises in my warm-up now.

I have such low blood pressure that I will get light headed if I have my head lower than my heart for *any* length of time- and I've been told over & over that stretching a weighted/active muscle is ineffective at best and dangerous at worst, so I've generally opted out of the "touch your toes" category of stretches and don't miss it in the least! Hadia does have some good suggestions, I picked up others from my PT and I am racking my brain trying to remember which stretching text book had others for that same area- arg! That's going to bother me all day- I'll look it up this weekend.

As for the neck, I would talk to your PT about exactly what warm ups and stretches are safe, as well as what is needed in general.

I'll also second the sentiment that warm ups are for *warming up* the muscles, not for stretching. Sometimes we'll include some gentle stretches after warm up to make sure a particular area is prepared for what we are about to demand, but it's not part of my regular warm up routine.

I never roll my head all the way around. I was told years ago that that can be dangerous. So, even if an instructor leads it, I never go more than side-front-side, or if I do roll to the back, I leave enough space for a large orange at the base of my neck, if that makes sense.

I'm no expert, either on leading warmups or on injuries, although I agree that uber-stretching unwarmed up muscles is not a good idea anyway, but if you do want to stretch the backs of your legs and lower back while keeping your back supported (say, after dancing or working out), I've always found stretching agains the wall to be a good method.

You lie on your back with your buttocks as close to the wall as they can get, and your legs up the wall. You can perform different variations of stretches from this position---sliding your legs apart, putting your feet on the wall and sliding them down to bring your knees toward your chest, putting your foot above the knee of the other leg and bending that leg toward your chest, etc.

Hi all and thanks for your advice. I will check out Hadia's stuff since so many seem to like her warm-ups. Just to sort of explain further, I don't do any static stretching in my warm up, apart from a couple of things.

Although I don't want this to get into a discussion about what I should and shouldn't be doing in my warm-ups (apart from the question at hand), I thought it might be helpful to mention what my warm-ups include:

Reaching arms out to the side and up over head and back down several times, include a plié
Stretching one arm up while while pushing that hip on the same side down and alternating, start slow and then speed up
Reaching up and then swan dive forward, hanging down with bent knees and then rolling up slowly (this is the one I can't do anymore)
Neck to the side a couple of times (I used to do neck rolls, but can't anymore so I do chin retractions now)
Rolling shoulders 8 times forward and 8 times back
Rolling elbows 8 times forward and 8 times back
Rolling whole arms forward and back (Like backstroke and freestyle)
Rotating ankles (one foot at a time)
Pressing feet up on the balls and going back an forth like a stairmaster
Quick hip slides with arm patterns
Shimmy drills!
Plus other exercises that may be specific to the subject taught that day.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

Reaching up and then swan dive forward, hanging down with bent knees and then rolling up slowly (this is the one I can't do anymore)

Okay, I do something similar as a preparation for hair/torso flips that I teach when we are doing drum solos, but- I only go as far as having torso parallel to the floor and we bend the knees for support. The purpose in my version (obviously) is not to stretch the legs at all but to warm up & strengthen back & core muscles. Helps with torso flexibility. we do it very, very slowly as a warm up, only fast when we are actually doing the flip in class. Don't know if you can do that version since it keeps hips/heart/head in line or not.

While I know intellectually that the forward fold from the hips isn't really that good for you, I like the feeling that my vertebrae are pulling away from each other, lengthening the back. Sadly I've never gotten that feeling from anything else.

However, the mild stretching of the backs of the legs and the glutes in that position -- I guess I personally wouldn't call it developmental stretching unless you were really pushing it, not just hanging there -- can best be got on the floor, as my PT person explained to me. Good glute stretches are here, and the legs on the wall or one leg in the air hamstring stretch (I often use a strap for this) are great.

Particularly if I'm cold, I tend to walk a lap or two around the studio before doing any warmup activities... but then I'm sometimes coming in from below-0 outside.

I don't do forward bends during warmups at all. I consider forward bends to be stretches, and stretches are best left for the end of class. The goal of my warmups is to warm up the body. So I like to start with some simple saidi or dabke steps, to get the blood circulating and the body temperature up. Anything will do, really. Running in place or jumping jacks would be fine, too, or, if the student isn't a beginner, shimmies layered with other moves. I do that for just a couple of minutes, then I follow up with basic isolations (slides, circles, etc on the chest and hips), as well as wrist circles, shoulder rolls, ankle circles and some basic pointing and flexing exercises. I also like to do gentle neck rolls there.

I do forward bends and other stretches during the cooldown, after class. At that point, our muscles should be warm enough for real stretching. You could always find exercises that will stretch the same muscles that forward bends stretch, so that you can replace the forward bends with them at the end of class. Just make sure you OK them with your doctor.

As for suggestions, why not do a seated forward bend? That's not an inversion, so maybe that would be okay for you? Or, maybe lie down and stretch your hamstring by stretching the legs towards your body.

Originally Posted by tigerb

While I know intellectually that the forward fold from the hips isn't really that good for you, I like the feeling that my vertebrae are pulling away from each other, lengthening the back. Sadly I've never gotten that feeling from anything else.

Me too!

And thanks for the glute stretch link!

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

Since June I've been suffering from a neck/back/shoulder/arm thing and I've been seeing a physical therapist. She told me to stop doing several things when I warm up to dance (and I lead warm-ups in my classes, too).

I am no longer supposed to bring my chin to my chest or roll my neck around in circles (bringing my neck to the sides is fine). She also told me not to do forward bends (aka inversions).

So does anyone lead safe warm-ups without forward bends? It seems like every class I have ever been to uses them somehow. Also, any suggestions on what to replace these bends with in order to stretch the lower back?

I don't do stretches in my warmups. I save stretches for the end of class, and use them during the cooldown to help students release tension that may have built up in their muscles during the course of class.

So I'll focus on what I do in cooldowns...

I have never, EVER used a forward bend in a belly dance class. I know it's common in yoga classes, but I never use it for belly dance.

For hamstring stretches, I save them for the very last stretch at the end of class. I have students lie on their backs on the floor with their pelvis next to a wall, and both feet up on the wall, legs straight. In this position, the lower back can really release any tension it contains, so it's a great cooldown after lots of figure 8's and other moves that intensely use the lower back. But it also stretches the hamstrings nicely at the same time. My students tend to really, really like this because of what it does to release back tension.

I've never, ever done head circles as a warmup, either. I learned years ago that they create stress on the neck vertebrae if you let your head roll backward unsupported across the neck area, so I don't use them. I don't think they're necessary, anyway.

Forward bends of a toe-touching nature don't really do much useful for the lower back, anyway. For a lower back stretch, this is what I use: Put one foot slightly forward of the other, not much, though. Maybe align the heel of the forward foot with the toes of the back foot. Place the hands on the knees. Now, tuck your tail between your legs like a dog being scolded. Suck in the gut as much as you reasonably can but still be able to breathe. (Ie, we're NOT going for yoga nauli here.) Hold this position, and focus on that pelvis rotation. You'll really feel it in the lower back, and it feels great. It's beneficial without the risks of the forward bend.

Originally Posted by CalgaryBibi

I never roll my head all the way around. I was told years ago that that can be dangerous. So, even if an instructor leads it, I never go more than side-front-side, or if I do roll to the back, I leave enough space for a large orange at the base of my neck, if that makes sense.

My elementary school gym teacher impressed upon us that this movement was dangerous, so I've always been surprised at how frequently I encounter it as an adult in warm-ups at dance workshops. When we were very little, he told us never to do it because we might unscrew our heads, but when we were older he explained that the movement can damage your vertebrae.

I have a question with regards to forward bends: to what extent is the 'hang loose' version safe? I learned that if you're keeping your legs straight to get a stretch, you should also keep your back flat to avoid straining your lower back, but that if you relax your legs and bend your knees it's safe to roll down as far as is comfortable and hang with a rounded back. In the latter version, you should not be pushing yourself to reach a certain position, e.g. touching your toes.

Originally Posted by Ainsley

My elementary school gym teacher impressed upon us that this movement was dangerous, so I've always been surprised at how frequently I encounter it as an adult in warm-ups at dance workshops. When we were very little, he told us never to do it because we might unscrew our heads, but when we were older he explained that the movement can damage your vertebrae.

I have a herniated disc in my neck (C6 I think). I don't know what caused it, I literally got out of bed one day with severe pain. It wasn't dance related. Anyway, years later, after it was found on the MRI, I saw a neurologist. He checked me for nerve impingement, and finding none, put me on a PT routine that included alot of neck strengthening exercises. He basically cleared me to do anything I wanted *as long as it didn't hurt and I started slowly and built up gradually*. I asked him specifically about slow, controlled neck rolls and he repeated what i just quoted above.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

I am no longer supposed to bring my chin to my chest or roll my neck around in circles (bringing my neck to the sides is fine).

Sigh - this information has been around for over a decade. Even ballet schools are taking some of this up.

A head/neck circle is not a warmup - and never has been. It is dangerous to the neck vertebrae and for older students it can restrict blood flow to the brain. Please stop! To warm up the neck it is safest to move in one plane at a time - forward and a little back, turn to look over your shoulder (with chin level), tilt ear to neck.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

She also told me not to do forward bends (aka inversions). I do these all the time to warm up the back of the legs and to stretch the lower back. Now I feel like there is a hole in my warm up and I want to replace it with something that will stretch similiarly...Or maybe I don't need to replace them or do them at all? She told me I can come down at a 90 degree angle and stretch my hamstrings with a flat back, but I am not supposed to round my back or put my head below my hips.

1. You cannot stretch your hamstrings while standing
2. A stretch is not a warmup - it should follow a cv warmup
3. Inversions put huge strain on the lumbar vertebrae - often you are hanging all your weight off one.

Want to warm up your legs? Walk - belly dance has plenty of travelling steps which do not use fine muscle control - use those. Or do the walk on flat, then demi then plie thing. Skip forward and sideways.

At the end of your class - stretch your hamstrings if you really want to - lie on your back with knees bent. Hug one leg into the chest bent then straighten it, grab the calf and pull it in (keeping your lower back on the floor). Not only is this safer - it'll actually stretch the hamstring (ie lengthen muscles fibres).

Originally Posted by tigerb

While I know intellectually that the forward fold from the hips isn't really that good for you, I like the feeling that my vertebrae are pulling away from each other, lengthening the back. Sadly I've never gotten that feeling from anything else.

And this is why a lot of people do this - it feels good. Unfortunately what is most likely to "stretch" in this position (if you are doing it right) is your ligaments - not your muscles. But ligaments tend not to do much elastic stretching - often they micro-tear and you end up with ligaments which are too long and won't stabilize your back (you can get around it by keeping abs and back muscles in good shape - for the rest of your life - and be careful about fast accleration from stumbling in holes or having car accidents)

Another problem is many students cannot fold from the hips and they get an even worse deal.

If you like the feeling, how about hanging upside down by the feet? No excessive starin on one joint then.

If you can't study with Hadia directly, atleast treat yourself, and your body, to her 4-disc DVD set. It should answer most of your questions on how to keep your body safe and clear up misunderstandings about warm-ups vs stretching. What the vast info in the DVD doesn't anwer, an email directly to her will.

Originally Posted by kashmir

If you like the feeling, how about hanging upside down by the feet? No excessive starin on one joint then.

I'd totally do that if I had a way to do so!

Originally Posted by tigerb

While I know intellectually that the forward fold from the hips isn't really that good for you, I like the feeling that my vertebrae are pulling away from each other, lengthening the back. Sadly I've never gotten that feeling from anything else.

There are some basic pilates exercises that really leave me feeling stretched out. Some of them involve dynamic stretching of the back with the core strongly engaged. Others, like "rolling in a ball" actually do some self massage of the back and probably facilitate some myofascial release. What your body might actually be craving when you do the cold forward stretches is myofascial release.

I have a really nice DVD by Marie Winsor that has a fairly short basic pilates routine.

edited to add: I'm not suggesting Andalee do the "rolling in a ball". It involves placing the entire spine in a forward curve .

Originally Posted by kashmir

If you like the feeling, how about hanging upside down by the feet? No excessive starin on one joint then.

Totally getting off track, but I so wish I could get one of the inversion back boards (don't know what they're officially called) for my house! they feel so good! Thinking on it now, I don't know why those never gave me problems since, as I said up thread, usually having my head bellow my heart makes me instantly dizzy. Now I'm curious...

Originally Posted by Lara L

Totally getting off track, but I so wish I could get one of the inversion back boards (don't know what they're officially called) for my house! they feel so good! Thinking on it now, I don't know why those never gave me problems since, as I said up thread, usually having my head bellow my heart makes me instantly dizzy. Now I'm curious...

I've seen the Teeter Hang Ups advertised on cable TV. Or the other brands are just called "inversion boards" or "inversion tables."

If your goal with inversions is to loosen up your spine and torso generally, a few other exercises that I find help this general area are:

- loose pelvic circles, knees bent
- lifting and dropping the rib cage
- stand with feet just over hip width apart, feet facing forward, hands on hips. Elongate the torso and, maintaining a long waist, tilt to one side enough to feel a stretch along the waist. Rpt other side. Come back to centre and hinge forward from the waist to bring torso parallel with the floor, with flat back.
- very large, loose horizontal backwards figure 8's, letting the feet move and body follow the movement
- cat cow pose on hands and knees.
- hold onto a barre or back of chair and move back to stand flat backed, torso parallel to floor. Slightly pull back one side at a time, letting hips move side to side, to gently stretch the sides of torso. Can also be a good, gentle stretch down backs of legs.

I don't have any warm up moves to add.
I just wanted to say I hope you feel better!

This is an interesting discussion, and there are already a ton of great warmup ideas here. I'd like to add to both of these comments:

Originally Posted by ssipes

What your body might actually be craving when you do the cold forward stretches is myofascial release.

Originally Posted by kashmir

And this is why a lot of people do this - it feels good. Unfortunately what is most likely to "stretch" in this position (if you are doing it right) is your ligaments - not your muscles. But ligaments tend not to do much elastic stretching - often they micro-tear and you end up with ligaments which are too long and won't stabilize your back (you can get around it by keeping abs and back muscles in good shape - for the rest of your life - and be careful about fast accleration from stumbling in holes or having car accidents)

It is my understanding (from my anatomy and yin yoga training by Paul Grilley) that gently stressing the connective tissue including fascia and ligaments is necessary for healthy joints. If you look at the fascia surrounding the spine, particularly around the sacrum and lower back, you'll see that it is a dense mesh of connective tissue. If you are exercising the connective tissue properly, it's pretty much impossible to "overstretch" that area. There's a lot more to be said about this but I don't want to ramble on.

However, I do agree that a standing forward fold is not an effective hamstring stretch, and if you're feeling it in you're glutes, probably what is actually going on is pulling on the place where your hamstring attaches to your hips, and that can be a very painful injury if you push to the point of tearing that attachment.

For some, supine poses (and there are lots of great ideas in this thread!) are enough to release the lower back. Knees-to-chest is a good one, but for me, I have a proportionately huge ribcage and when I bring my knees in, my legs hit by ribs before I can really stretch my back. Seated forward folds with a rounded back work best for me.

And I agree with ssipes and her PT that it is a good thing to be gentle and work up to building greater strength and flexibility, even if that means an occasional forward fold if you think that would be beneficial to you.

I'm finding this thread really interesting. We have enough knowledge on this board that we ought to be able to put together "the ultimate 20 minute warmup" for bellydance, don't you think? As long as we were able to agree on what we are trying to accomplish... which might be hard.

I mean, what ARE we trying to do with our warmup? When you've got a bunch of students (or even you yourself) who have been sitting in offices all day, presumably we're trying to warm the muscles, gently extend the limbs, and take the joints through some range of motion movement to "wake things up" and have them ready to dance. At the end of class you take advantage of the very warm body and do developmental stretching as well as stretch to prevent cramping later, yes?

Is there an author who is recommended for his/her writing on the warmup process?

Originally Posted by tigerb

Is there an author who is recommended for his/her writing on the warmup process?

Ann Cowlin

A universal warm up could be useful, but has limited applicability. I do the same general warm up to start us out each class (about 5 minutes, maybe a little more) but then I do a warm up tailored to what we will actually be doing that day.

Originally Posted by tigerb

I'm finding this thread really interesting. We have enough knowledge on this board that we ought to be able to put together "the ultimate 20 minute warmup" for bellydance, don't you think? As long as we were able to agree on what we are trying to accomplish... which might be hard.

First, we'd have to agree on how long to do the warmup for ;)

It really irks me when people spend 20 minutes warming up for a 60-minute class. That's almost half the class, and it's a total waste of time. I don't think warmups for regular classes should be any longer than 5 minutes, excluding isolation drills that might be used somewhere in the warmup.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

First, we'd have to agree on how long to do the warmup for ;)

It really irks me when people spend 20 minutes warming up for a 60-minute class. That's almost half the class, and it's a total waste of time. I don't think warmups for regular classes should be any longer than 5 minutes, excluding isolation drills that might be used somewhere in the warmup.

5 minutes isn't long enough for most people. I know some dancers complain ( i do about 10 min) but the purpose is to keep all of us from injury. And most students do not warm themselves before class.

Originally Posted by taji-dancer

5 minutes isn't long enough for most people. I know some dancers complain ( i do about 10 min) but the purpose is to keep all of us from injury. And most students do not warm themselves before class.

10 minutes isn't bad. I could see it being necessary on a cold day, or for strenuous activity. Also, if half or more of that 10-minute warmup is composed of actual belly dance moves and/or steps, I'd have no complaints whatsoever.

But on a regular day, and for a regular belly dance class, I personally don't think it's very necessary, as I said, to go over 5 minutes (again, excluding belly dance drills and moves that might be used as a warmup). Belly dance isn't strenuous activity. It is (or comes from, depending on your definition) a social dance, and regular people "over there" will just get up and do it and that's that, they don't get injured from dancing because they didn't warm up.

Of course, our students haven't been dancing their whole lives, they are learning it from scratch, they are going to be dancing for almost an hour, they are starting when older, they may have had injuries, etc. So I am not saying that we don't need to warm up, and I am not saying there is no potential for injury. But the potential is less than what we make it out to be, so I find it silly that we think it's necessary to warm up as long as (or longer than) athletes would for activities that are much more strenuous and injury-prone.

The purpose of a warmup is to increase body temperature, blood flow, and elasticity of connective tissues, and to prepare the mind for what's to follow. I don't know why that should take very long. 5 minutes is a long time, a lot can get done in that time.