Thread: Dear Student Who Is A Complete Beginner And Wants Me To Make Her A Choreography

FORGETABOUTIT.



OK, if we were ballerinas would people ask such questions? OMG.

What happened to learning the movements, the music, getting into shape? Stuff like that?

But noooooooooo.

"I want you to design for me a NICE two or three minute choreography so I can play with the veils, and have the pleasure of dancing!"

Uh huh.

How about, we learn to dance first?

Maybe I am too demanding.

Well... Why don't you let her try and see for herself that it's impossible?

I had a voice teacher who I worked with. I didn't actually since a song for over a year! My mother didn't understand what she was paying all that money for if I wasn't going to sing. We never could get her to understand.

{{{HUGS}}}

OK, I do have simple 2 and 3 minute choreos that I teach to my beginners. They're not really performance choreos, more like 'step samplers' set to music so they can practice. We use just a few very simple movements set to very repetitive music. Hopefully they DO get some pleasure from doing these choreos at their level. However, it takes a full 6 week session to teach them the movement vocabulary, and even then only the most dedicated ones, who practice at home, are able to get through it on their own. The rest are just following along in class to get a *sense* of what it will be like when they can dance.

I can't imagine what I would charge to develop a choreo especially for one student and then give them enough training so they could execute it.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

I had a voice teacher who I worked with. I didn't actually since a song for over a year! My mother didn't understand what she was paying all that money for if I wasn't going to sing. We never could get her to understand.

{{{HUGS}}}

Exactly!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

OK, I do have simple 2 and 3 minute choreos that I teach to my beginners. They're not really performance choreos, more like 'step samplers' set to music so they can practice. We use just a few very simple movements set to very repetitive music. Hopefully they DO get some pleasure from doing these choreos at their level. However, it takes a full 6 week session to teach them the movement vocabulary, and even then only the most dedicated ones, who practice at home, are able to get through it on their own. The rest are just following along in class to get a *sense* of what it will be like when they can dance.

I can't imagine what I would charge to develop a choreo especially for one student and then give them enough training so they could execute it.

Well what Ana said - it's IMPOSSIBLE to do a real performance choreography after 4 lessons!

LOL.

But, step samplers, yes that makes sense and we do that but she wants to PERFORM, of course doesn't come to class every week and doesn't practice either. Rolls eyes.

As far as making a choreography, people don't get that this is WORK. I asked my friend Sonya at Arabesque, who is an excellent choreographer, how much time she spends on a dance. She says about an hour a minute.

SO, figuring that I have about 1/3 her talent, I gotta spend three hours a minute.

Nobody wants to pay me either.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

As far as making a choreography, people don't get that this is WORK. I asked my friend Sonya at Arabesque, who is an excellent choreographer, how much time she spends on a dance. She says about an hour a minute.

I too spend about an hour of time to choreograph one minute of dance. Slightly less for beginner-level dances because those have more repetition.

One of my former students once came up to me at a belly dance event and told me she hadn't really understood just what a good teacher I was until she tried to create a choreography of her own and teach it to her own students. Only then did she truly understand what it takes to create a choreography that is 1) Fun to learn and do; 2) Easy enough for beginning students to learn; 3) Interesting enough to watch that it can be performed at recitals. Plus she learned that the craft of TEACHING choreography isn't as easy as she expected it to be, either.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I too spend about an hour of time to choreograph one minute of dance. Slightly less for beginner-level dances because those have more repetition.

One of my former students once came up to me at a belly dance event and told me she hadn't really understood just what a good teacher I was until she tried to create a choreography of her own and teach it to her own students. Only then did she truly understand what it takes to create a choreography that is 1) Fun to learn and do; 2) Easy enough for beginning students to learn; 3) Interesting enough to watch that it can be performed at recitals. Plus she learned that the craft of TEACHING choreography isn't as easy as she expected it to be, either.

Yeah. I've never been approached for something like this, but I have choreographed my own pieces. People just don't understand the value of other peoples' time. Not when it comes to preparing for a show, and not when it comes to, you know, CREATING works of art like a choreography.

I'd likely look at this as a teaching opportunity. I mean, if my student is eager to learn and practice (not that this student sounds particularly diligent or dedicated), I would tell her to put her money where her mouth is. My response would probably be something like;

"Sure, we can do that. I charge $75 per hour of choreographing time and on average, we're looking at approximately one hour per minute of choreography. Then we would probably need 1.5 hours of private instruction for you to learn it. My private instruction fee is $50 per hour.

So... three minutes of choreography plus ninety minutes of instruction will cost $300. I will require three weeks to complete the choreography with my current schedule. I don't write anything without payment up front. Will you be paying cash or cheque?"

P.S. - I would also explain fair usage (i.e., you would be allowed to perform this choreography in public but must give credit to me as choreographer. You would not be allowed to teach this choreography to anyone else, etc.)

Did you ask her what she actually thinks she's going to do with this choreography? If she needs it because she's already booking gigs for herself, you've got bigger problems than her wasting your time with uninformed questions. OTOH, if she just wants some help planning her make-your-husband-a-sultan bedroom game, and she's willing to pay and you're willing to indulge her...

Originally Posted by ANA_bellydancer

Well... Why don't you let her try and see for herself that it's impossible?

I had a beginner who got a choreography off a DVD. She wanted me to "polish up" her performance. She was incapable of understanding her interpretation was completely different - not only did she not have the technique she wasn't even in time! There was some fairly simple footwork under the torso work and she couldn't see it let alone do it. She just wanted to look pretty in a costume and wave her arms about. I'm glad the choreographer never got to see this (and no, I wouldn't let her perform it in the student show - mean old teacher)

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Did you ask her what she actually thinks she's going to do with this choreography? If she needs it because she's already booking gigs for herself, you've got bigger problems than her wasting your time with uninformed questions. OTOH, if she just wants some help planning her make-your-husband-a-sultan bedroom game, and she's willing to pay and you're willing to indulge her...

LOL. I think it's make your husband a sultan, and also, she has a six month deadline in which to learn the oriental dance, because at that point she is going to school.

Sigh. I am still trying to learn and it's been since, what, 1973?

Well like I said I am slow.

I'd choose a really difficult choreography and give her just a few days to learn it, saying something like "if you're such a good dancer, this is no big deal for you".

Originally Posted by veritate

"Sure, we can do that. I charge $75 per hour of choreographing time and on average, we're looking at approximately one hour per minute of choreography. Then we would probably need 1.5 hours of private instruction for you to learn it. My private instruction fee is $50 per hour.

So... three minutes of choreography plus ninety minutes of instruction will cost $300. I will require three weeks to complete the choreography with my current schedule. I don't write anything without payment up front. Will you be paying cash or cheque?"

This exactly. Surely she doesn't expect you to create this choreography for free on your own time?

Referring her to a video seems like a good idea. There are lots of beginner videos out there with choreos on them, I think.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

This exactly. Surely she doesn't expect you to create this choreography for free on your own time?

Referring her to a video seems like a good idea. There are lots of beginner videos out there with choreos on them, I think.

Alas, of course I am expected to do this on my own time, for free. LOL, people have no idea! Nor do they realize how hard it is. At least for me!

Plus practice notes, music, etc - well, fortunately I already had that prepared. But that took a lot of time to develop, create a system etc and find music and compilations of music, well you guys know.

Anyway, I have noticed students expect A LOT, or maybe I just look like Grandma?

LOL. That must be it:)

I did refer her to Cory for DVD's.

She needs How To Stand, and can go from there!

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

FORGETABOUTIT.



OK, if we were ballerinas would people ask such questions? OMG.

What happened to learning the movements, the music, getting into shape? Stuff like that?

But noooooooooo.

"I want you to design for me a NICE two or three minute choreography so I can play with the veils, and have the pleasure of dancing!"

Uh huh.

How about, we learn to dance first?

Maybe I am too demanding.

From a students' perspective:

I was a complete beginner not too long
ago and I can understand why she'd ask for a choreography. In the process of learning a choreography I learn a move and drill it before moving on to the next move. even though I don't master it right away, it's still exciting to actually *dance* to a piece of music in a way that is somewhat artistic and creative, even if it's the simplest collection of moves the teacher came up with. As I practice it at home, continuing to drill the individual moves and combinations, I get much better at it and I can also execute it in context...thus learning about how the dance actually relates to the music. I get a feeling of accomplishment as I see the choreography come to life with each combination I master, making me want to keep learning!

But of course, this point of view doesn't consider the teachers' time and compensation. I just wanted to bring up a point for why it might be helpful to teach using a choreography. It's a lot more fun and rewarding to the more serious and enthusiastic student, not to more motivating.

It depends how far she's pushing it IMO. When you are a complete beginner clueless is understandable. It looks so easy when the teacher does it... a few "basics" strung together, how hard can it be for you to rustle up a little dance for me? It's easy to underestimate what it takes to make it look that good/easy, especially if you don't bother turning up to class where your classmates will have been finding out for themselves.

But once you've had it explained that creating even a short choreography is a lot of work, teaching it is more, and unless you've got some decent technique under your belt already (clue: turning up to class?) it's all pretty pointless... well, time to put on those big girl panties, realise it's a daft idea, say oh I had no idea, and shut up.

Originally Posted by carolbui

In the process of learning a choreography I learn a move and drill it before moving on to the next move. even though I don't master it right away, it's still exciting to actually *dance* to a piece of music in a way that is somewhat artistic and creative, even if it's the simplest collection of moves the teacher came up with. As I practice it at home, continuing to drill the individual moves and combinations, I get much better at it and I can also execute it in context...thus learning about how the dance actually relates to the music. I get a feeling of accomplishment as I see the choreography come to life with each combination I master, making me want to keep learning!

Thanks for sharing your point of view! When I first started to teach, I experimented a bit. Sometimes I would teach a choreography in my 6-week session of beginners, and other times I would just teach technique. I found that my beginners were happier with the class when I taught choreography, and they gave the same sorts of reasons you did. So now I almost always teach choreography in my beginner class.

Originally Posted by carolbui

In the process of learning a choreography I learn a move and drill it before moving on to the next move.

My beginner student choreographies are pretty much just that -- short drills all strung together from the same drill combinations we do in class. I do this with my brand-new beginners. They get the opportunity to practice the movements, while at the same time begin exposed to some (possible subconscious) musical expression, Q&A in music, rule of 4, etc.

even though I don't master it right away, it's still exciting to actually *dance* to a piece of music in a way that is somewhat artistic and creative, even if it's the simplest collection of moves the teacher came up with.

Exactly. For some people, it's much more fun to practice even the shortest choreography than it is to try and practice 32 hip slides, then 32 figure 8s or whatever. I've also noticed that students who practice the choreography seem to have a lot less trouble with transitions and weight changes later -- and that's usually the bane of the "advanced beginner" or so.

As I practice it at home, continuing to drill the individual moves and combinations, I get much better at it and I can also execute it in context...thus learning about how the dance actually relates to the music. I get a feeling of accomplishment as I see the choreography come to life with each combination I master, making me want to keep learning!

That's exactly my goal for students, so I'm glad to see the concept works! :)

But of course, this point of view doesn't consider the teachers' time and compensation. I just wanted to bring up a point for why it might be helpful to teach using a choreography. It's a lot more fun and rewarding to the more serious and enthusiastic student, not to more motivating.

Granted, I would not write a PERFORMANCE choreography or a dance to a complicated piece of music for one student without a long discussion as to WHY she wants it, and also as to what she's going to do with it, and how much I will charge.

BUT -- I have been known to create practice "homework" choreographies for students who
1. show up every week
2. show me they are obviously practicing the material at home
3. seem as if they would benefit from a little "homework" outside of class.

Just gotta say that your choreography would be worth $300. More!

**Back to our regularly scheduled thread.**

Originally Posted by veritate

Yeah. I've never been approached for something like this, but I have choreographed my own pieces. People just don't understand the value of other peoples' time. Not when it comes to preparing for a show, and not when it comes to, you know, CREATING works of art like a choreography.
...
So... three minutes of choreography plus ninety minutes of instruction will cost $300. I will require three weeks to complete the choreography with my current schedule. I don't write anything without payment up front. Will you be paying cash or cheque?"

Some students are naturally more doubting of their abilities to put together their own routines. Some bulldoze right in and start choreographing after a couple of classes. I'm more to the other extreme--I was dancing for years before I felt I knew enough to do my own thing for an audience. Honestly, my first thought when reading the thread was that this student might be trying to get the jump on the "rising star" category at her local competition. Depending on how the brackets are set up, some competitions have very strict rules for what is "beginner" enough for their starter category. In my case, my hesitation meant I had priced myself out of most entry brackets with too many years of class experience by the time I figured I had learned enough to not make a fool of myself. The discrepancy between my years of experience learning and performing means I'm not a good fit for most competitions.

This leads into another discussion: at what point do we encourage students to experiment in their own voices? I don't think it would be wise for a teacher to let students with a month's experience delude themselves into thinking they are qualified to do very much, but too many teachers don't give students good, structured exercises to build choreography and improv skills from early in their educations. A lot of times students are never tasked with anything in class beyond following the teacher. When the time comes to leave the nest, they're flapping their wings solely on whatever goofing around they've done at home. Learning to dance on your own should be a guided journey, not a blind leap into the deep end of the pool.

I love and appreciate all these responses! It's fascinating to hear from other teachers and also, from the student point of view.

I'm biased, in general, against choreography, at least until people learn basic moves. This is because of my background with primarily live music - but also - I think that it's vital to learn isolations, the various types of moves that create the belly dance in the first place, before learning a choreography by rote. To continue the ballet analogy, one would be practicing foot and arm positions, legs, carriage, for YEARS probably before learning a performance dance.

That said I try to get people dancing ASAP; does this make any sense? I try to teach people to

a) learn the fundamentals
b) feel the music
c) learn the rhythms and try to become familiar with various forms of ME music
d) start putting fundamentals, ie, what we call "steps" together, in layers and combinations and travels, asap

I guess it's kind of an immersion. The thing is I realize it's a lot to throw at people, but that's how I learned, I just got dunked in, there were no shortcuts, but it was fun and it was very challenging. Oh, plus we learned zills, floor, props, and performed with live music after a few months, if we were able - my teacher did show us choreographies but only after we'd demonstrated an ability to do hip and torso isolations, zills, undulations, some travels and shimmies FIRST.

In my classes, I try to get people to feel the music and respond to it, right from the start; so we ARE dancing - I think that teaching a routine can help, in some respects, but in others it hinders individual creativity IMO (and that's only my opinion!) and also, doesn't reflect what I think is an essentially non-choreographed form, at least one wants to learn to think on the feet so to speak.

So, what I am really trying to do is teach people to make their own dances.

I have seen big improvement practically overnight though, among more advanced students, by having them do choreography - for example Jillina's - even running through one once from the DVD helped them and then we never did it again but their dance made a leap forward.

So I see both angles of this!

PS I understand why students would get frustrated, plus the experience now is very different than when I was learning, plus, I had been exposed to the music so that wasn't so hard.

Trying to learn it all, and a lots at once, must really be scary.

So I see how a routine would help!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

This leads into another discussion: at what point do we encourage students to experiment in their own voices?

I took my first real belly dance class after I had retired from ballet. It was a 4-week session. I knew after that 4 week session was over that I was hooked because in that 4 weeks I felt like I was able to fully express myself in this new dance form.

Now, my first teacher did not push performing. She very much made it a personal thing -- you dance for you. And that's what I loved about it. I felt like I was more equipped to actually DANCE after those 4 weeks than in the typical 8 year syllabus of ballet. In my ballet classes, we learned the repertory company choreographies, but we never really got around to improv or exploring dance for the sake of dance, rather than playing a role.

I don't think it would be wise for a teacher to let students with a month's experience delude themselves into thinking they are qualified to do very much,

I would never have thought of performing after 4 weeks, but I can remember getting a Hossam Ramzy CD, throwing it in the player, and spending all kinds of enjoyable time just "noodling." It never occurred to me that I was exploring improvisational skills, or practicing transitions. I was just enjoying myself and "dancing."

I think sometimes we forget what it's like to be a beginner, and to have all these new toys to play with. Our professional focus is so much on teaching and performing that we forget there are students who will NEVER set foot on stage, but still have a darn good time noodling at home.

but too many teachers don't give students good, structured exercises to build choreography and improv skills from early in their educations.

Agreed. Too many don't encourage "noodling" and just trying things out on your own. But then too many students take class time too "seriously" and WON'T go out on their own and explore things, maybe because they feel like it wouldn't be welcome? My first teacher didn't bat an eye when I said I'd "learned" the choreographies off Joynan's videos. She didn't discourage us from creating choreos and sharing them with the class. But she also wasn't as hard-line focused on "professionalism" and creating professional dancers. She just wanted to share what she knew with a bunch of women who would appreciate it. There is room in each student's life for both kinds of teachers, if they are lucky enough to find both.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Too many don't encourage "noodling" and just trying things out on your own. But then too many students take class time too "seriously" and WON'T go out on their own and explore things, maybe because they feel like it wouldn't be welcome?

Depending on where you are in your education, noodling during class time can be pretty useless, and too much of it can come across like a lazy lesson plan. Being asked to noodle around may be overwhelming to beginners who are shy or not used to dancing without guidelines ("I don't know what to do"), and to more experienced students, it can seem like a waste of time that would be better spent on instruction ("I don't need to pay you for me to do this"). That's why I would recommend that teachers give exercises with some structure to them, instead of plopping a record on and letting students ramble wildly. This might mean asking the class to experiment with one move for a whole song, or restrict their movements to one body zone, or concentrate on expressing a specific set of emotions or stylistic flavor. It can also be useful for the teacher to improv while the students follow, or for the teacher to start a sequence and let the students finish it. The point is to give students something specific to do so that things aren't wide open, because that approach often ends with somebody on the verge of tears and feeling like a failure.

Aziyade, Tourbeau, both of you are so wise! and I find myself relating to both of you and what you've written.

Something Tourbeau said though really hit home, and that's the idea that people can feel like failures.

This happens doesn't it, and it's a real big problem in a class where there are mixed levels in particular - but - it can happen to the best dancer - in class or after a performance!

Have any of us NOT felt really bad about a performance, or even as teachers, like maybe we just blew it?

I think there is a big difference between an instructor offering a "choreography" as part of beginner lessons, and a student asking her instructor to create one just so she can play with veils. In one case, the instructor has prepared it in advance and will continue to use it year after year, perhaps. In another, the student is asking for a personalized work of art, whether she knows it or not. Big difference. I still say there would be a teaching opportunity here.

I picture little tykes twirling and spinning on stage in tutus for a children's ballet recital. Do they have much skill? No, unless you call overcoming stage fright a skill (which I would). Technically, they're nowhere near ready, but they like to have something to show their parents, so they get to learn a routine. It's probably a dismal routine by any normal standards, but it gets them up and "dancing" which is all the parents expect.

So in that regard, wanting to learn a routine in a beginner class is not so off-base, IMO. I was grateful to learn a choreography in my first session, and perform it in public (after only five weeks - YIKES!)

But it is a matter of personal choice of the instructor. My current instructor does not teach choreography in "foundations" classes. But the class description never offers such things. If her students ask why they aren't learning a choreography, she could explain that her students begin learning choreographies in higher levels after they have technique developed, and that's that.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

Something Tourbeau said though really hit home, and that's the idea that people can feel like failures.

This happens doesn't it, and it's a real big problem in a class where there are mixed levels in particular - but - it can happen to the best dancer - in class or after a performance!

Have any of us NOT felt really bad about a performance, or even as teachers, like maybe we just blew it?

As to ensuring students don't feel like failures, I think that's important, too. But I think that's more a matter of creating a supportive atmosphere where trying new things is encouraged once in awhile. Where struggles are seen as opportunities to improve and where instructors share some of their own struggles. Yes, I think we've all been there where we've fallen flat on our faces (sometimes literally) and it behooves us to share those experiences with students, to see how much of a process it is - that it's life long. After all, giving them a routine to learn in the first session doesn't mean they're successful, necessarily. Especially if they fail to show up and learn it properly; success comes from developing their technique to a point where it is a thing of beauty to an audience.

On noodling in class - I've been dancing about 7 years now and I'm only just getting OK with it. A lot of the time I don't quite get what the teacher is getting at and miss the point, and so it feels like a colossal frustrating waste of time for me.

(Likewise work with a partner I didn't pick to produce a few bars of choreography within the lesson. Drives me nuts, what's the point? EVERY TIME it makes me feel like a total failure. I just don't think up or learn choreography in that time scale.)

My first teacher, who has a Masters in ME dance ethnology, believed that you needed two things from the moment you started classes; zills and improvisation. While there are many things which I disliked about her teaching - having come from Ballet, I wanted some structure and instruction during my warm ups - in the long run these were invaluable as so many teachers do not teach either. And trust me, the ability to improv has saved my backside many times!

(For me, inprov is the a key part of "noodling.")

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

(Likewise work with a partner I didn't pick to produce a few bars of choreography within the lesson. Drives me nuts, what's the point? EVERY TIME it makes me feel like a total failure. I just don't think up or learn choreography in that time scale.)

Maybe slightly OT but I totally sympathise with this! I generally hate this kind of group/partner work. I'm getting to be OK with partner improvisation, as long as I can work with a classmate I know well, but I really find choreographing with somebody else in a short period of time horrible, awkward and pointless. Or worse still, in a group. Even worse, a group where most of the other group members are much less experienced dancers than you and look at you expectantly...

Even more OT, but I was truly discombobulated when one of my teachers decided to experiment with contact improvisation in class, with partners not of our own choice, in a class that I was quite new to at the time... The only time I've felt too uncomfortable to take part in a class activity!

Originally Posted by Roshanna

Maybe slightly OT but I totally sympathise with this! I generally hate this kind of group/partner work. I'm getting to be OK with partner improvisation, as long as I can work with a classmate I know well, but I really find choreographing with somebody else in a short period of time horrible, awkward and pointless. Or worse still, in a group. Even worse, a group where most of the other group members are much less experienced dancers than you and look at you expectantly...

Even more OT, but I was truly discombobulated when one of my teachers decided to experiment with contact improvisation in class, with partners not of our own choice, in a class that I was quite new to at the time... The only time I've felt too uncomfortable to take part in a class activity!

Also horrible where others are less experienced/knowledgeable than you but want to do something you are not happy with and they are in majority.

I love to noodle on my own - or with one particulat person who started with me and has same ideas (largely) as I do.

I really appreciate these posts about group work!

I use this kind of group work occasionally in my Advanced Musicality and Expression class. I think it's extremely valuable for a variety of reasons -- but I'd hate to think I'm making my students miserable! I'll have to check in with them.