Thread: UK to US teaching differences?

Hi everyone,

I haven't posted in a very, very long time, but I really would like some information.

I am wondering about the different teaching/warmup/cooldown methods used in the USA vs the UK for insurance purposes. I come from a vintage/American cabaret background if that helps.

Any advice is very welcome.

Have you tried the NADA insurance? if not then please look it up on facebook... I am sure they will be able to help.

Yes, there are differences in terms of structure. However I am not sure they related to your insurance claim.

Hi Caroline,

Thanks for your reply. I haven't tried NADA but was a member last year; I'll have a look.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

...

I don't think it's meaningful or even possible to generalize so broadly. If you've taken a lot of classes, you know how much teaching practices vary even within a single town, not to speak of a whole country!

Perhaps if you posted a thread detailing what you're doing and asking for feedback, it might help you get the specific information that would be helpful to you.

Oops! My reply was to the OP as quoted, not the edited version, but my suggestion is pretty much the same. If you describe your methods here in detail, you might get some useful feedback.

I would assume that there is a great variety of approach in both nations.
It would only by detailing what you do, we could perhaps compare.
NADA have an insurance policy whlch does not require you to send in a DVD/have followed a teachers' course and also covers you for performng fusion/tribal as well as belly dance. You have, of course, to be a member.
On the Facebook page you can contact the insurance "bod" Sabrina.
Of course methods of warming up/stretching and cool down seem to change with the times but perhaps you could look in detail at what you did. I would not think it had a lot to do with UK/US differences just different demands within a nation. For instance when a dancer applys to MADN for insurance they do (or did?) expect a teacher to have had specilist training for eg with JWAAD and in which case would follow their guidelines on the content of a lesson.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I am wondering about the different teaching/warmup/cooldown methods used in the USA vs the UK for insurance purposes. I come from a vintage/American cabaret background if that helps.

Broad question and I'm not from the UK but ... over a decade back I was introduced to the Australian dance guidelines which were developed partially for insurance purposes. Part of this required a certain level of Safe Dance Practice instruction (about 6 months at tertiary level). Much of my posting on safe dance practice is based on this (plus 100+ hours of semi-private tuition) Invariably it runs counter to many teachers' practice on this and other forums. Seems many teachers are working on the structure their teachers used or accepted practice on DVDs. Many also get very defensive if it is pointed out it is not best practice. I think "too conservative" has been one of the kinder retorts I've received.

The most common warm up fault is not having one - or worse doing stretches as a warmup. What, exactly, do you do?

Hi everyone,

Thank you for your replies. I will try to explain what I generally do:

Classes I have taught in the past have only been 45-60 minutes long (depending on place).

So I do: 5-10 minute warmup (dancing, walking back and forth in time to music, grapevines, etc), 5 minute stretches, 3 moves during class (sometimes more depending on the class) - in this instance I did hip bumps, walk back and forth, shimmy and snake arms. We did put shimmy and snake arms together but that's not *always* what I do. Then follow-the-leader sort of dance (do what I'm doing), then letting the students try dancing on their own. Then 5 minutes of stretches. This tends to be all that can be done withing the time limit allowed.

Stretches include touching the floor (*usually* with bent knees!), arm in front, arm behind head, stretch to the side, 'warrior' pose in yoga, and butterfly pose (sitting on the floor).

So that is the usual; more is added depending on what we're doing that day.

All of my training has been in the US, so I wanted to know if there was a difference. I haven't done JWAAD either.

Question: why stretches at the beginning? What purpose do they serve?

Also, how are you doing these stretches? Do they bounce? How much do you describe what participants need to be thinking about when they stretch?

Hi Zumarrad, good to see you again.

I just do them at the beginning after warming up because that's generally what I've been taught. I do know that there are different schools of thought about whether you should do them beforehand or not, of course. We also sometimes do exercises from a back class I have had previously (promoting strength in your back and abdominal muscles). They don't bounce, as I was taught 'bouncing' was not good by the personal trainers I have had. I also advise that it should not be painful, not to push themselves, etc.

I must say I've never really seen the point of stretches following a warmup in an hour long class. You stretch at the end.

When I taught my basic routine was a five to ten minute reasonably upbeat warmup to something poppy, followed by some repetition of known movements, some technical breakdown of two or three movements/combinations/choreographic bits and then drilling of same, then cooldown (stretch and strength).

I do know the forward bend/touch the floor stuff is sometimes frowned upon. I do it in ballet now during the barre, but I wouldn't have included it in a BD class and I still wouldn't, frankly. If I want to stretch hams etc I would sit on the floor.

Hi Brea,

I noticed you changed your post to 'any advice welcome' so here goes..

I have never attended a weekly class in the USA but I have been in many workshops with teachers from the USA.

Warm ups and stretches are somewhat different, we definately not usually do long stretches.
Terminology is often different. We dont really use the term 'drilling', maya's and other movement descriptions (apart from maybe in Tribal classes?).

Our 'Egyptian walks' are on the down, not like the 3/4 shimmy.

If you could ask specific questions I and others maybe able to chip in with more info?

brea actually shared the letter she got with me. what they wanted sounded like what 3 year olds are taught in a movement class..she wanted to see "skipping and running" ...i do remember such being used in method acting as well. what the letter stated did not relate to ME dance at all...i have studied dance since 1953..taught since 1966...we have never "skipped and ran" for cardio.....i use dance moves for warm up, most come here to avoid gym like structure.
i told brea to come home

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

... I am wondering about the different teaching/warmup/cooldown methods used in the USA vs the UK for insurance purposes...

As a student I am blissfully ignorant of these things, but I would be very surprised indeed if the actual insurance companies give two hoots about lesson plans and teaching methods.

Presumably dance organisations negotiate discounts on the basis that their members will be a safer insurance risk. If that means passing their inspections and whatever criteria they see fit, that's up to them, but I'd be surprised if any one organisation had the belly dance teacher insurance market stitched up over here.

(yikes, skipping and running about? we don't do that, and my teacher's JWAAD qualified).

I think we might need to tease apart two issues here: warm-ups and insurance. There are ways of getting insurance to be a dance teacher (generic, not specifically bellydance) in the UK that don't require you to prove that you're able to teach warm-ups, or anything at all in fact. You will be required to be a member of a professional body and probably sign up to any professional practice statements those bodies require. Insurance is required by more potential employers now in the UK, and even some places that hire rooms out will ask to see insurance.

Now, warm ups. I've been to lots of different types of dance class as an adult and as a student I've observed that 'warm-ups' can vary from: skipping and running around (oh yes) followed by intense 'yoga-style' stretching (contemporary dance); gentle use of specific dance movements and stepping patterns (lindy hop and salsa); lots of cold stretching and / or mobilisation sequences done without a cardio warm up (a couple of different BD classes and Bharata Natyam). Clearly the UK mileage on warm-ups varies across dance disciplines as well as geographically

As a teacher, it is in your own best interests to have some kind of 'warm up' at the beginning of your class. And it should be a safe warm-up - and what is safe will depend on the context of your class. So, for instance, I *have* used gentle skipping and jogging as a cardio element of warm up when I've been working with non-dancers and children - both are well-known categories of movement (in my neck of the woods) that can easily be used to change direction (I use a lot of directional changes in my warm-ups - spatial awareness, etc) and raise pulse, etc, followed by some easy mobilisation stuff. If I was teaching a group of established dancers I would probably warm up with some stepping patterns combined with arm pathways and directional changes and then slightly more challenging mobilisation stuff.

To conclude (I didn't mean to ramble, sorry!) it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater to say 'huh, skipping and running is for 3 year olds'. Skipping and running is *totally appropriate* in some contexts. What seems inappropriate to me is for an organisation to ignore context and require skipping and running as part of a warm-up when acting as a gatekeeper for insurance.

/rant

Originally Posted by deelybopper

I think we might need to tease apart two issues here: warm-ups and insurance. There are ways of getting insurance to be a dance teacher (generic, not specifically bellydance) in the UK that don't require you to prove that you're able to teach warm-ups, or anything at all in fact. You will be required to be a member of a professional body and probably sign up to any professional practice statements those bodies require. Insurance is required by more potential employers now in the UK, and even some places that hire rooms out will ask to see insurance.

Now, warm ups. I've been to lots of different types of dance class as an adult and as a student I've observed that 'warm-ups' can vary from: skipping and running around (oh yes) followed by intense 'yoga-style' stretching (contemporary dance); gentle use of specific dance movements and stepping patterns (lindy hop and salsa); lots of cold stretching and / or mobilisation sequences done without a cardio warm up (a couple of different BD classes and Bharata Natyam). Clearly the UK mileage on warm-ups varies across dance disciplines as well as geographically

As a teacher, it is in your own best interests to have some kind of 'warm up' at the beginning of your class. And it should be a safe warm-up - and what is safe will depend on the context of your class. So, for instance, I *have* used gentle skipping and jogging as a cardio element of warm up when I've been working with non-dancers and children - both are well-known categories of movement (in my neck of the woods) that can easily be used to change direction (I use a lot of directional changes in my warm-ups - spatial awareness, etc) and raise pulse, etc, followed by some easy mobilisation stuff. If I was teaching a group of established dancers I would probably warm up with some stepping patterns combined with arm pathways and directional changes and then slightly more challenging mobilisation stuff.

To conclude (I didn't mean to ramble, sorry!) it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater to say 'huh, skipping and running is for 3 year olds'. Skipping and running is *totally appropriate* in some contexts. What seems inappropriate to me is for an organisation to ignore context and require skipping and running as part of a warm-up when acting as a gatekeeper for insurance.

/rant

after reading this i think that is what i ment...im not slamming skipping etc...it's what YOU said !

I'm very much open to changing what I do if that's what is necessary; I just want to know I'm doing things right. If that means using skipping/running, I'll do that for warmups.

Mostly I've experienced a combination of yoga/dance/exercise movement for warmups, probably a bit more heavily skewed towards the yoga side.

Aniseteph and deelybopper: I will continue to research insurance providers, but I am keenly interested in ensuring that I am offering good technique and practice as well. I will take this as a learning experience.

Thanks Caroline for more detail on the differences, and to Zumarrad for the advice regarding stretches. Cory - I hope to 'come home' next year sometime. I miss the sun!

Hi Brea,

I dont know the details of your letter about skipping and running.. but I would not return home on that basis! sun.. yes..

Standards in the UK can be hit and miss like any other country. but generally we have a strong core of excellent teachers and dancers and standards are pretty high.

Have you ever thought about coming to The Jewel Of Yorkshire festival? it is not so far from Scotland. It is an excelent festival and it would provide you with a wider view of what UK dancing and teaching is like. They also have many international teachers there.

. "For instance when a dancer applys to MADN for insurance they do (or did?) expect a teacher to have had specilist training for eg with JWAAD and in which case would follow their guidelines on the content of a lesson."

This is what I said about the conditions of getting an insurance through MADN or rather as it was when I last saw it. Dance associations negociate very good rates for PLI and if they wish to put conditions upon that I think it very right.No one said anything about stitching up. They prefer teachers to be trained and they do not specifiy one scheme of training at all...and this helps to prove their technique. When I had MADN insurance it was on grounds of verification of my teacher and the fact that I was a trained schoolteacher. I also had to have First Response training. I think this is potentially an excellent way to maintain standards but I suppose will always be subjective. To tell truth I am rather sorry that NADA insurance does not have those conditions!(I am a member of bboth organisations and have NADA ins.)
I visited an open day of a fitness venue last night and it was a great evening They had a lively and enthusiastic belly dance teacher who quoted endless misinformation about the dance and had suspect technique. She was obviously a very fit and skilled "dancer" but my blood boiled. No doubt she is fully insured by the organisation or community dance but there is no guarantee , she will teach belly dance safely from what I saw of her demo.

Yes Brea JoY..why not we told you about this festival months ago..You'd love it!

Originally Posted by lplmuk

.Dance associations negociate very good rates for PLI and if they wish to put conditions upon that I think it very right.No one said anything about stitching up.

That was me using the term stitched up. I didn't mean to imply any monopolistic intent on the part of any organisation ("teach the British Standard Camel or you'll never work in this country again!"), just that regardless of the rights and wrongs I would be surprised if access to insurance for teaching belly dance was that controlled at the moment. Some teachers make you wonder (my blood has boiled too!).

I totally agree that dance organisations should be able to impose conditions and set some standards, and I'd expect insurance companies to give better discounts if they do.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I just do them at the beginning after warming up because that's generally what I've been taught. I do know that there are different schools of thought about whether you should do them beforehand or not, of course.

I think "the different schools of thought" boil down to "what we've always done" vs "scientitic research" - and I'll go with the latter - unless someone can point me to a peer reviewed study which shows stretches before exercising is beneficial. If you do do them, I was told you need 10-15 minutes cardiovascular warm up prior.

Stretches include touching the floor (*usually* with bent knees!), arm in front, arm behind head, stretch to the side, 'warrior' pose in yoga, and butterfly pose (sitting on the floor).

Do you mean bending at the waist and bringing your torso in towards yours legs ie toe touching or "flopping over"? If so, I suspect this may be a major reason for rejection. (This does not stretch hamstrings but can damage the lower back)

With stretches I was taught to always have a purpose. What are you stretching with a warrior pose for instance? How does it relate to a belly dance class? Do belly dancers need turn out (butterfly pose)? More to the point, do you screen your students for hip joint issues which make this exercise painful and counterproductive?

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

As a student I am blissfully ignorant of these things, but I would be very surprised indeed if the actual insurance companies give two hoots about lesson plans and teaching methods.

The original thought behind the Austrailan scheme was that dancer teachers would need to pass an approved tertiary Safe Dance Practice course to get insurance (I'm unsure if the teaching methodology part was also required or just rounded out the package). The enforcement was no insurance, no venue hire. I haven't heard anything recently so I suspect it has gone by the way. But proof that the person to be insured will not cost an insurance company is not unusual.

Brea,

Just a quick question.. I assume you are talking about the mosaic/ Madn insurance if it is not NADA?

I know they have always been very tight about giving out insurance willy nilly because the field of insurance is a mine field. I used to give very good dancers references for their insurance, and they had to provide evidence of alot of stuff, so it is not just you.

Did they ask you to demonstrate any technique or delivery of it?

I guess we should not be too upset about the dance insurers being over zealous, because at the end of the day insurance cover implies many things.. in the UK, you had to prove yourself to be of a certain level to get it so it also acted a kind reassurance to customers that the correct things where in place for teaching.

I think if if you call them up and have a chat you might get closer to the issue. I dont think it can be just about skipping and running.. unless they have new people in place who dont have a clue.

Wow, lots of responses! OK, let me see if I can answer everyone's questions.

Regarding JoY: I actually planned to go there when I first arrived 2 years ago, and missed the train by less than a minute! grr. Anyway, ever since then, frankly I've been extremely underemployed or unemployed here - and I am not entitled to jobseeker's either, being an immigrant. It's not a case of 'I'm ignoring JoY' it's a case of 'I have no money to do anything'. Believe me, I'd go if I could. Right now I'm not even sure if I'll be staying in the UK. The day-job situation is extremely dire. That's a different subject but I thought I'd mention it; same goes for lessons locally/joining the gym/etc. No money for necessities = no money for extras either. Anyway, this is the reason I'm considering going home/elsewhere; it's unrelated to this particular query.

Yes, it's MADN insurance; they wanted a DVD. Like I said, I'm willing to change how I do things if that's what is necessary. I also understand, and agree with, the idea that there should be rules in place to guard against bad teaching practice. The woman I spoke with told me 'there was nothing wrong with what you were teaching' but for insurance purposes they want 'something else'. They also sent me a little booklet that looks like it's copied out of an instruction manual? (some of which is a bit silly, what with 'goddess' talk and all that) Anyhow, I'm perfectly fine with doing whatever needs to be done to improve or change or whatever. I'm very committed to being as good a teacher and dancer as I can possibly be, and I've always said that you never stop learning.

Kashmir: As I pointed out above, I do a 10 minute warmup, then stretch; I do not believe that you should stretch *before* doing anything at all. Zum was saying that she thinks you should only stretch at the end, whereas I was taught (by personal trainers as well) warmup, stretch, exercise, cooldown, stretch. I do understand that the bent-knee stretch may not be a great one and will eliminate it from the stretches. Do you think that it's better not to stretch at all until the end of class, then?

If the insurance co. wants to see light cardio in the warmup (which if I"m understanding is essentially what the issue is), why not incorporate something like brisk step-ball-changes around the room in a big circle? (of course doing it to ME music and stepping in time). This would do essentially the same as skipping but would be relevant to ME dance.

Zum was saying that she thinks you should only stretch at the end, whereas I was taught (by personal trainers as well) warmup, stretch, exercise, cooldown, stretch.

No, I do not think you SHOULD ONLY stretch at the end; in ballet for argument's sake we might do a few stretches between barre and centre. Ditto the gym. One CAN do stretches at that time. I know I like having a good stretch when I am very hot, which may not be at the end of a session.

But when you only have an hour and you are teaching belly dance, which is not about trying to extend the limbs, boost turnout etc, it seems like a waste of valuable dancing time to stop and do a whole bunch of probably unnecessary stretches in a class.

I mean, an hour of ballet is largely about alignment, increasing turnout, flexibility, strength and balance, and THEN you get into the actual dancing. An hour of bellydance is generally about learning how to do a dance that requires good ordinary human posture and a nice strong core, the latter of which is often created by.... doing the dance in good ordinary human posture.

If there is one muscle group that needs to be stretched for belly dance (after warming up), I'd say it is the calf muscles. I think the lower leg muscles are terribly underappreciated yet important, particularly for shimmies. When my calves are tight, my shimmies are much diminished.

However, I still remember some stretching and myofacial release techniques taught by Shakira of Columbus, OH (who is an Alexander Technique and Feldenkrais instructor as well as a ME dancer). We did a number of hip movements before the stretches/releases and then after, and everyone saw an amazing loosening and increase in range of motion for the movements.

Unfortunately, I don't remember them all, but I do remember that after a certain kind of massaging of the IT band area, my downward vertical figure 8 got much easier and more distinct.

So, I do think there are stretches that will enhance belly dance, but I also agree that not every stretch is equally important.

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Yes, it's MADN insurance; they wanted a DVD. They also sent me a little booklet that looks like it's copied out of an instruction manual? (some of which is a bit silly, what with 'goddess' talk and all that)

Really?? can you clarify if they wanted you to talk about the 'Goddess' or were against it?

I hear this organisation has gone through many changes in recent times. I guess it would be useful for us in the UK to know whats going on. Since moving to Nada have have not paid much interest in Mosaic.

Sorry to hear about your other experiences.. does it make you feel more Scottish?

The booklet - I've seenit. If it's the same that we all received them as members,it has been devised by an individual member who also runs the safety days they put on in parts of the country. This will be her own personal take on the dance and I wouldn't think reflects the viewpoints/approach of the society as a whole. As Caroline has pointed out you can take up NADA membership and insurance without any conditions. I would however advise some kind of assurance for your own sake and when/of you have the cash to spare ( yes it's tough at present) look for safe dance /trainng days. They seem have done teacher training sessions at the JoY weekend..last time with Sara Farouk and this time with Khaled
Mahmoud. You couldn't do better than get a big tick by your work from either of those tow. This would be 8 hours fof workshops and all the while enjoying the festival