Thread: How Rigid Can Teachers Be?

There's an interesting thread going on in the UK teachers group right now. http://www.bhuz.com/index.php?cmd=/p...ps/view/id_27/

What interests me is at what point does a teacher let go of the reins with her students, or does he/she keep a tight grip for x amount of time/years before allowing students to progress upwards into more advanced classes.

Someone made the suggestion that she would like to re-name her classes, knocking out handles such as intermediate and advanced, which is an interesting and feasible point.

My particular fascination with this discussion is that I know of some teachers who are rigid to the point of being anal with their students. It all rather smacks of 'control' and they seem to get off on the power trip of being a 'teacher'. I know a teacher who absolutely won't let her students wear sparklies or do what she considers to be 'cabaret' style.

As rigid as they want until they lose students. Ultimately, it's the student (customer) who dictates to the teacher what they will/won't put up with.

That being said, a lot of people will put up with abusive, controlling behavior for many reasons - their friends are in class and they don't want to leave them, low self-esteem, misplaced teacher reverence, the perception that that teacher is the only game in town, etc. But in the end, I would think that teachers who hold their students back to the point of frustration would lose more students than they retained.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

As rigid as they want until they lose students. Ultimately, it's the student (customer) who dictates to the teacher what they will/won't put up with.

Bingo.

Teaching is providing a service, and your students are paying customers. If you don't make the classes enjoyable, accessible (price, times, location) and for the more advanced levels, challenging - they will leave.

Being Rigid comes with more advanced students who have an acceptable amount of body awareness and who are not afraid to put in effort and practice to progress.

As for levels, I do not think it's something a teacher should decide at whim because it always leaves students feeling left out, and many overwhelmed and wondering why. Yes, it's easy to see which dancers are grasping things quicker than others, but for me... well, I'd prefer to have a list of techniques that need to be well-executed before promotion. That way, if someone wants to advance, I can say "I'd love to have you in that class, but since the next level builds upon technique learned in this class, we'll have to work more on your "X", "X", and "X" before moving you up." Then, of course... this is a nice time to suggest private classes and frequent practice if they want to move up quicker.

Now, if they are the sort who do not have much coordination, or are "sure they're doing it right" (and don't listen to corrections)... well, the same rules apply. It's not that I want to exclude anyone, but I do not want to hold capable students back.

Bottom line, though... not everyone needs or wants to move up, and really just want to have fun. For those students, I am collaborating with two other teachers in the area to hold regular student haflas for them to perform, open dance, shop and mingle.

Bellydance seems to cross somelines in the student/customer relationship. If you do gigs togeether and get paid is your customer/student now an employee ?

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

As rigid as they want until they lose students. Ultimately, it's the student (customer) who dictates to the teacher what they will/won't put up with.

That being said, a lot of people will put up with abusive, controlling behavior for many reasons - their friends are in class and they don't want to leave them, low self-esteem, misplaced teacher reverence, the perception that that teacher is the only game in town, etc. But in the end, I would think that teachers who hold their students back to the point of frustration would lose more students than they retained.

This has happened to me and a former classmate of mine is also showing signs of leaving the teacher as well.

Azeeza

The ideal teacher is in class first and foremost for the students, and is mature and self-aware enough to leave any of his/her and the students' personal issues, insecurities, etc., out of the equation when it comes time to assess.

I presently teach three levels, and a few years ago realized the challenges inherent in the terminology of "Beginner", "Intermediate", and "Advanced", so have simply renamed them Levels 1, 2, and 3. When the students have a good foundation in the basics, which usually means taking three sessions/a year of classes, they can move up to level 2. By this time, they are hooked on belly dance and it becomes part of their lifestyle. Most of the time, though, these students are in it for pure enjoyment and are not looking to perform or develop a professional career in dance. As for level 3, which is mostly a troupe and performance class, I have very high standards for entry. The student has to be very talented, motivated, disciplined, and a team player. I know I have lost more than one student who wanted to be part of our semi-pro troupe, but did not have the required skill set or "troupe fit", so to speak.

Teaching is about giving and sharing. It's also a two-way street, or should be. If students of mine weren't happy with an aspect of my curriculum, or with anything, for that matter, then I would want to know about it, i.e., "Hey Khalida, I/we would really like to learn X". After all, that's only fair play.

Kharis, I am very bewildered at how you have twisted the focus of that thread in the group into something it was NEVER intended to be!!!! That thread was about how teachers use language and leading by example to set realistic student expectations with respect to what they may be ready for. You have CHOSEN, for some inexplicable reason, to TWIST that into assuming that those of us who try to set realistic expectations in students' minds regarding what they are ready for are being "rigid" and "controlling".

I have to wonder what your agenda is here. Are you demonstrating a knee-jerk reaction to an individual in the UK that none of us even know about, whose methods are perhaps hostile to her students? Are you projecting some strangers' behaviors and motives onto the rest of us?

I clicked on the link and apparently it is a private group. So there's nothing really that other members of the forum can make any informed comments about.

Can I politely suggest that rather than dragging some kind of private dispute into the public section of bhuz, perhaps the 2 of you could hash this out over PMs or something?

We have heard about many teachers who are 'drill sergeants'. Some do very well and develop great dancers, others do not. I have taken from both. I know that many times in the upper level classes a lot of the 'fun' goes out the window because of the desire by both the teacher and the students to continue to work towards perfecting their art. But this is also where a lot of teachers lose students. Because let's face it, why are we paying for the privilege to have our butts kicked?

So I think in the end, the answer is, as THTX said, as rigid as the class allows them to be. And is appropriate for the class and it's stated mission. And that is something which only her class can decide.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Kharis, I am very bewildered at how you have twisted the focus of that thread in the group into something it was NEVER intended to be!!!! That thread was about how teachers use language and leading by example to set realistic student expectations with respect to what they may be ready for. You have CHOSEN, for some inexplicable reason, to TWIST that into assuming that those of us who try to set realistic expectations in students' minds regarding what they are ready for are being "rigid" and "controlling".

I have to agree with Shira. That is not how I see the discussion. I suspect the issue was that Shira was unhappy with a student being in what was labelled as an "Advanced" class in under a year and Kharis saying she was "advanced" - and teaching within 9 months. As I have never seen Kharis dance - or teach - or more to the point never saw her after only 9 months of study I really cannot comment on how accurate her own label was. She could be a very talented dancer who had some amazing teachers - or she could have been totally self deluded.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

We have heard about many teachers who are 'drill sergeants'. Some do very well and develop great dancers, others do not. I have taken from both. I know that many times in the upper level classes a lot of the 'fun' goes out the window because of the desire by both the teacher and the students to continue to work towards perfecting their art. But this is also where a lot of teachers lose students. Because let's face it, why are we paying for the privilege to have our butts kicked?

So I think in the end, the answer is, as THTX said, as rigid as the class allows them to be. And is appropriate for the class and it's stated mission. And that is something which only her class can decide.

{{{HUGS}}}

Exactly. I started teaching with a school here which was dedicated to creating oriental dancers. The principal had a definite vision and we worked together to plan how this would occur (including dropping labels such as beginner, intermediate, advanced; there was a definite syllabus and "exams" to pass to reach the next level). The goal was achieved - their dancers are polished and very professional.

Note the change of pronoun. In the end it just wasn't me. I now teach independently and eschew a performance focus - and exams. I would like to focus on beledi, folk and improv - but do teach a lot of oriental because that's what turns the students on. Until recently I know we did push students of the wrong fit back across the lines - ie my 17 year old "I want to dance in restaurants" was encouraged to take classes with my ex-partner. She would sent me people she felt would never make it as a professional dancer.

But now it has become word of mouth. I attract the students that like my teaching (and dancing) style - and the other school attracts those that like their style. Hopefully, everyone wins.

Originally Posted by lotus

Can I politely suggest that rather than dragging some kind of private dispute into the public section of bhuz, perhaps the 2 of you could hash this out over PMs or something?

Well, I wasn't aware there was some kind of "dispute" over "rigid" teacher behavior until Kharis posted this thread publicly and cited a thread that was ATTEMPTING to explore, "What classroom behaviors can we as teachers use to give students a realistic view of what skill level they're currently at (beginner vs ready to perform professionally)?" as the basis for doing so.

I think it's perfectly valid to start a dialogue over the question of how much structure teachers should have in the way they define their class levels, how they determine when a student is ready to advance from one to the next, and how they deal with it when a student wants to advance before a teacher believes she is ready to. I don't have a problem with this public thread exploring that question, and think it can be useful for teachers and students alike to think about it.

My objection was to Kharis implying that there's something rigid and controlling about MY suggestion in a PRIVATE thread that it may be appropriate for teachers to use classroom language/behavior to give students a realistic view of the level they're currently at.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I have to agree with Shira. That is not how I see the discussion. I suspect the issue was that Shira was unhappy with a student being in what was labelled as an "Advanced" class in under a year and Kharis saying she was "advanced" - and teaching within 9 months. As I have never seen Kharis dance - or teach - or more to the point never saw her after only 9 months of study I really cannot comment on how accurate her own label was. She could be a very talented dancer who had some amazing teachers - or she could have been totally self deluded.

Thanks for explaining this. MUCH clearer now.

Back in 2003 or so, Sadie came to these boards and ASKED us what she needed to do to become a professional dancer in under 2 years. We told her. She did it. She obviously became an incredible dancer, building on her previous dance skills.

On the other hand, there are many 6 week wonders out there whose teachers have NEVER given them any feedback. I have sat through classes where I have WATCHED the teacher ENCOURAGE dancers who HAD NO BUSINESS performing for money to take jobs. $20 bucks for a 10 min set. In costumes which made Cairo Airport specials look elegant. Because she did not want to lose the student by suggesting that the student wasn't ready to perform.

I will admit that there is a fine line between honesty and brutality. There are many people who simply do not have the ability to be honest without being brutal. They haven't learned to be diplomatic. And there are also people who cannot take any type of personal criticism. They are too vulnerable. It is a fine line and can be hard to walk. And that may be why I am not teaching.

{{{HUGS}}}

I took the question to be more hypothetical, or that whatever discussion was going on made Kharis think about other situations that she knew of where she felt that a teacher was being controlling.

When she mentioned one teacher wouldn't let her students wear sparklies, I immediately thought of Sureya Hilal.

I guess I saw it as a spinoff thread, not an attempt to judge your observations, Shira.

And Kharis, that is a private group (and not just a "UK teachers" group). Those who are not members cannot read the posts. This is so that teachers can discuss issues from their classrooms without fear that their students may read and misunderstand or be hurt by any honesty shared therein. Most of the teachers groups I belong to online are private for this reason. I am certain that he mod, Breafahrana, will allow any current teacher who wishes to join that group to pop in and see the direction of that other thread, which is different from this one.

I must have misunderstood the post as well.

My ex-teacher screamed, threw things and berated the students and other dancers to acheive the kind of dancers she wanted in a non professional group.

I had to leave and I think my former classmate has finally had enough of this style of teaching also.

Azeeza

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Kharis, I am very bewildered at how you have twisted the focus of that thread in the group into something it was NEVER intended to be!!!! That thread was about how teachers use language and leading by example to set realistic student expectations with respect to what they may be ready for. You have CHOSEN, for some inexplicable reason, to TWIST that into assuming that those of us who try to set realistic expectations in students' minds regarding what they are ready for are being "rigid" and "controlling".

I have to wonder what your agenda is here. Are you demonstrating a knee-jerk reaction to an individual in the UK that none of us even know about, whose methods are perhaps hostile to her students? Are you projecting some strangers' behaviors and motives onto the rest of us?

No. Why should I do that? The thread set up some points that are interesting... That I had a slight disagreement with you on that thread seems more a knee jerk reaction from yourself. But hey ho.

I was citing an example of just how rigid teachers can be, and starting a debate on whether this is acceptable. I personally don't believe that it is. By posting the above, you're actually instigating some kind of argument when there is none. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned the thread on the Teachers group, but if I hadn't I'd have no doubt been damned for that too. Here we go again....someone on Bhuz taking umbrage to what someone else posts. Grow up.

Yes, I perhaps should not have mentioned the Teachers Group...but if I had not, then I might have been perceived as being 'sneaky' and to be honest, I didn't think of causing trouble as Shira has indicated.

The only point at the beginning of this thread that I raise regarding the teachers thread was this

"Someone made the suggestion that she would like to re-name her classes, knocking out handles such as intermediate and advanced, which is an interesting and feasible point."

At no point do I diss Shira or anything she said on the thread. In fact, I don't mention her at all. I thought that renaming levels for classes was a really good idea, as often the handles Intermediate and Advanced can be off putting for students. This is the main reason for this particular thread. But, I do know teachers who are controlling...and I have no personal beef with them...that's up to them. But it doesn't mean i have to like it.

Like it or not, I do find it controlling of teachers to pigeonhole students and keep them in beginners class for at least a year no matter their ability...with the cut and dried attitude of they cannot possible progress until that amount of time has lapsed. You can't do that with everybody. Everybody is different. On that thread it was not Shira who said this...so I don't know what her problem is regarding this thread. I stated that I disagreed...as some people progress very quickly and I was one them. I have several teacher/dancer friends who did the same. Just because they turned pro, or started teaching after less than a year's tuition does not mean they are no good. The proof of the pudding, is that we have all been teaching for over 12 years very successfully. So it can be done.

There seems to be a mind set regarding this. Like, it's de riguer to be rigid regarding structure of classes. I read it all the time on here. How a student cannot possibly teach or perform after only x amount of years. How you're not advanced unless you can do this or that move. Just how inflexible can you be regarding this? That's what this thread is about. The person who won't let their students wear sparklies is an extreme example...and just that...an example.

You will never stop people from thinking they are more advanced than they are. But why should a truly talented dancer be stopped from progressing through the ranks because it's not deemed suitable for a student to become advanced under 12 months?

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I took the question to be more hypothetical, or that whatever discussion was going on made Kharis think about other situations that she knew of where she felt that a teacher was being controlling.

When she mentioned one teacher wouldn't let her students wear sparklies, I immediately thought of Sureya Hilal.

exactly. No its SH, but a SH trained one.

Originally Posted by Azeeza

I must have misunderstood the post as well.

My ex-teacher screamed, threw things and berated the students and other dancers to acheive the kind of dancers she wanted in a non professional group.

I had to leave and I think my former classmate has finally had enough of this style of teaching also.

Azeeza

This sounds like the behaviour of someone who is coping very well in general, and perhaps is having some mental health problems. I'm not saying this excuses the behaviour though.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

This sounds like the behaviour of someone who is coping very well in general, and perhaps is having some mental health problems. I'm not saying this excuses the behaviour though.

No it sounds like someone who shouldn't be teaching. We may all love to dance, may even be able to do it...we aren't all cut out to teach it. It's so frustrating at times and when you deal with people who just don't get it..or don't really want to be arsed to get it!!!!it gets you down.
In the Uk I suppose there is a great variety in the nature of classes ( and probably elsewhere). There will be a few teachers with big classes in posh dance studios and they can afford to catagorize their students. There will be some with biggish classes who might even be able to split them but still suffer from a big turn- over of funsters.
Other like me with small classes. I have 30 on my books but rather more like 12 are really interested. For eg last class was new signing on. My students can pay for 10 classes or 5 within the same block. New girls all have a free taster class.
So I have a student turn up saying she has only had 3 classes ( and her free) out of the 10 weeks and why can't she have her other 2 in the new block...er no..I have rent, ins etc to pay and I had explained all this right at the beginning.
" Oh well I'll come again if my friends do"
My thoughts "don't bother, dear..I'll carry on with those who turn up every week they can and are moving on nicely."

But to return to thread.It boils down to the fact that you structure and plan your class according to the standard and nature of your students. When I split the class, working for a college, I refused to call the 2 year folks advanced they were divided into improvers and beginning students.

I'm an improving student..g.: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well, let's talk about names and levels then.

what i do is the folowing, on my website i dont just have the names, but also a little description.

- total beginners. this is for those who never took bellydance classes or would like to review the basics. we start out with learning basic hip and chest isolations, but quickly move from "learning steps" to really dancing together.

- beginners plus. this is for those who took at least one term of classes. we work on technique, building on the basics covered in the beginners class, but again, it's not just steps steps steps, but we also get to know a little bit of the rich variety of the world or oriental dance, and get to know different styles (the class covers a bit of saidi, baladi, classical raks sharki). every term thiis class has a different contents and you usually take it at least twice

- lower intermediate. this is for people with ca one year of bellydancing under their belts, we continue our journey learning more about more complex technique and styles, but also add combinations and dance exercises, provide the building blocks for choreography and impro. this class is different every term and every year and you usually take it several times. sometimes (usually the last term of the year) we work with a specific prop, veil or cane usually. sometime i have someone come in give one or two lessons in a style i dont teach (ats for example)

then, my "upper intermediate and advanced classes", kind of run through each other, as i work with themes/topics here. i teach about three of these per term, students usually discuss with me which one would be best for them. often they combine several. i announce the topics beforehand, and students seem to enjoy this. generally the people in these classes have been dancing for two years or more, sometimes a group specifies that it is really meant as an advanced class. topics from the last few years included:

- classical choreography
- props props props: an indepth introduction to veil, cane and zills
- introduction to the classics (zeina, batwanis beek, tahtil shebak, i pick about 5 'classics' and we work on each one for two or three weeks, either technique, impro, lots of music theory)
- american cabaret style veil work
- my first solo
- improvisation
- modern bellydance (from pop to dina and back)
- artemisia style group choreography
- advanced technique
- solo choreography therapy
etc etc

of course this is just the outline for the website. if a student progresses much faster, i aks her to skip a level; sometimes they come and ask me about them, sometime i suggest it to them. but for "most" students, this is the system they follow. the reason i have it in so much detail (and this is just the summary, the dutch text has even more detail) is because i have dozens of students coming from different teachers, who, if i dont put on these descriptions all want to enroll in advanced or upper intermediate, and really cant follow. i find it easier to move people UP then DOWN, so yes, new students (with some basics, coming from another teacher) i will try to direct to a lower level, for their first class, and then we can see which group would suit her best. so generally yes, someone with a year or less classes, will go beginners plus or lower intermediate, if it then shows that is way to easy, i move her up. if one of my own students shows a lot of potential/talent/whatever you wanna call it, i encourage her to work hard, at home, take from several teachers, combine several classes, move her up.

i have several students who are now teachers/perform professionaly, that i tutored to the best of my capacities. some had a decade of classes with me and others, some are ready after just two or three years of classes. it depends.

now, how am i being rigid? because i tell new people with less than a year of classes they should start out in lower intermeddiate?

Artemisia

this why there shouldn't be locked groups here. tina

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

Grow up.

Well, I was prepared to apologize until I read this. This was uncalled-for.

on the no sparklies;, well, my classes have a no coin belts/noisy belts rule. some students dont like it and leave, i dont care. my class, my rules. other classes have a no perfume rule, or a no-skirts only dance pants rule... etc... .. i go mad with 30 beginners in noisy hipbelts, so there, that's my rule. together with no gum and no jeans. do i noisily make a fuss and kick someone out? no, but i do gently remind them that i prefer no gum. it's like cell phones off, and no videocamera's, .. i have my class rules... that's not rigid, that's a few choices i made on how i want to run stuff and what i think creates the best learning environment.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

This sounds like the behaviour of someone who is coping very well in general, and perhaps is having some mental health problems. I'm not saying this excuses the behaviour though.

LOL ! Her classes reminded me of some of the reality shows on television. The Charmed Life, Dinner Impossible, Gordon Ramsey's show... I don't know where all the anger came from.

Throwing props, now that was new on me. We were not a professional group. We were students who were there for fun. No one was going to become professional (pretty obvious).

I had to leave, I just had to leave... for my own safety.

Azeeza

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Well, I was prepared to apologize until I read this. This was uncalled-for.

Then don't be puerile. I have absolutely no axe to grind with you... so with all respect, please don't come on here and accuse me doing something that I haven't done.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

on the no sparklies;, well, my classes have a no coin belts/noisy belts rule. some students dont like it and leave, i dont care. my class, my rules. other classes have a no perfume rule, or a no-skirts only dance pants rule... etc... .. i go mad with 30 beginners in noisy hipbelts, so there, that's my rule. together with no gum and no jeans. do i noisily make a fuss and kick someone out? no, but i do gently remind them that i prefer no gum. it's like cell phones off, and no videocamera's, .. i have my class rules... that's not rigid, that's a few choices i made on how i want to run stuff and what i think creates the best learning environment.

I think all the above is very relevant to workshops, and I'm with you on the noisy belts, cell phones off, etc. But weekly classes I personally like to be more fun and easygoing. I'd never deny my students the sparklies, they love it too much and it gives them so much pleasure.

i am fun an easy going. ask my students. but still no cell phones coin belts or gum.... and sparklies allll they want, just non noisy ones.