Thread: Spin Off: Becoming a professional dancer

While reading the thread on rigid instructors, I found the following bit of info:

Back in 2003 or so, Sadie came to these boards and ASKED us what she needed to do to become a professional dancer in under 2 years. We told her. She did it. She obviously became an incredible dancer, building on her previous dance skills.

Being much newer to this site, I'd like to re-ask the question: What does is take to become a professional dancer in under 2 years?

A lot of work.

I believe the suggestions started with finding a top of the line teacher or three and taking from her / them. The suggestion was 10 or more hours of class a week. Plus workshops. Plus cross training. Plus private lessons.

Actually, I have a letter saved in my e-mail which I wrote to someone who had asked me what it took. I'll see if I can find it.

Meanwhile, come on ladies. Let's see what we can cime up with.

{{{HUGS}}}

I have no idea, but I'd say it totally depends on who's asking, where they live, what resources (time and $) they have, and what they mean by "professional".

Originally Posted by bethsoren

What does is take to become a professional dancer in under 2 years?

In under two years, if you're focused...hmm. Others can speak more specifically to becoming a solo dancer; most of my friends that I've observed developed dance companies, and base their living off the troupe and teaching.

Having said that, I did a blog post on "ways to make money as a dancer", and I think the opening is appropriate to the situation. Mostly, I emphasis something that I rarely see in such discussion, and that is having the moxie to keep pushing for the goal. Please forgive the weird misspelling of "sharqi"; I was having a bad day with Word:

Basically, there are 4 "core attributes" for making money in raqs shaquri, or any of the related forms:

1. How much are you willing to hustle/sacrifice,
2. How much creative skill do you have,
3. How much raw business sense can you get,
4. How close you are to mainstream senses of beauty.

You'll notice that beauty is last. I've know a tolerable number of lovely and fairly talented raqs shaquri artists, who make a good, even a living, wage, for upwards of a decade or so. Yet they didn't learn how to do what I call "deep promotion", the stuff past basic networking, getting business cards, etc. They didn't have a long-term creative vision for their dancing, something to keep striving for. And they never really learned how to hustle, how to work on the fly and walk the tightrope to figure out how to make their vision a reality.

If you can put those aspects together, I've seen that you can make a living wage, on your own, as a dancer.

Originally Posted by bananarchy

I have no idea, but I'd say it totally depends on who's asking, where they live, what resources (time and $) they have, and what they mean by "professional".

While you have a good point in that the definition of 'professional' should be clarified, I am not sure that given the parameters of the original question, that it applies.

If you want to become a professional level dancer within 2 years, ie someone who could dance for BDSS or IAMED, and you lived in, oh, say, Lincoln, NE, I think one of your requirements would be that you moved house. While that is harsh, I have lived in Lincoln and I really don't see that the resources are there to do that level of tuition.

Yes, time and money are a HUGE factor. So is dedication, drive and desire. But if someone asks the question, seriously want to know, then they are indicating that this is a goal which they want and are trying to determine if it is somethign which they are able to do.

Not everyone can move from Lincoln, NE in order to become a professional level dancer that quickly.

I started dancing 'professionally' 9 months after I took my first lesson. What I do now and what I did then are totally different beasts. I have had years where I have lived, breathed, ate slept and drank BD. I have others where all I did was collect costumes. I am NOT on the level which Sadie, Jillina, etc are. Do I want to be? No idea. would I love to do the type of training regime I have laid out? Absolutely. Sounds like it would be amazing. But then I started dancing other forms of dance when I was 3, so it's kinda worked it's way into my DNA.

The other thing to think about is that the question is time sensitive. 2 years is not a lot of time. So the person who is asking should know ahead of time what it is they are going to have to sacrifice: ie money. This is not bad or wrong, it simply is.

One of my teachers told me that they use the same basic model which the NYBC uses to create Ballet dancers: it will take 5 years. that is starting casually and then working into full time. this is in order to have a truly technically and creatively strong adn professional level dancer.

{{{{HUGS}}}

Well, most importantly, it will be a gradual process. You can take 100 classes / week and put thousands of dollars in it, it's not like 2 years from now you'll wake up and all of sudden EVERYTHING will just happen.

- You decide what your dream is, how much you want to get out of it - how much are you willing to put into it.
- Take classes and do whatever you need to to get technique.
- Be exposed to other dancers / techniques / styles / so your dancing can get a richer flavor.
- Study all you can about the background - I'm not saying you need to learnthe language, but you do need to know (or at least be aware of) different folkloric styles.
- Know the music, know who Um Kalthoum was, and Abdel Halim, etc. Know a wide variety of the songs, their lyrics, and learn how to dance to them.
- while you are continuously learning and putting in the effort, seek out performance opportunities - don't undercut. You may get lucky if your teacher offers it, or you can network. Otherwise, wait your turn, it will happen.
- you do need the experience of performing, the more you do the better it gets. It will take time. (sort of like an airplane pilot or masage therapist or nurse needs X amount of hours before they can get their license). You can't perform 2/day for 1 month and say now you have it. It takes time.
- while you do all of this, stay humble, appreciate the culture and don't loose focus on why you are doing it.

First it will be 1 performnce / month, which later may become several. Then you might get a party here and there, and before you know it it might be a monthly thing. Through marketing / advertizing / networking / word of mouth it can become a several performances and a couple of gigs / month.
I guess this would be part time.
If the time comes and you feel up to it, you may take on much much more, quit your day job to be able to do more - although you don't have to. Most dancers do have another income falling back on (theirs or husbands, etc). If you don't, it can be scary - but it's doable, I've been doing it for almost 2 years.

So I think it would go something like this. It may happen faster, or much much slower, there are so many variables> your market, your dancing abilities / business sense, etc, just like it was listed above.

Of course I'm not saying this is how it is, it's just my own little ramblings, based on what I've seen.

A few thoughts:

First, find a teacher who:

• Has successfully trained others who want on to become professionals - especially if these former students are highly praised by other dancers and getting lots of jobs through word-of-mouth.
• Is knowledgeable enough to be credible in what is being taught.
• Isn't afraid to give you constructive feedback on what you need to work on.
• Provides you with feedback that makes sense to you on what areas you need to improve upon
• Teaches you not only the right way to do each particular step combination, but also the less tangible stuff, such as how to decide what moves to do with what music, how to use floor patterns, how to develop stage presence, what kind of dance style is appropriate to the professional gigs in your area (Arabic weddings, Greek restaurants, birthday parties for generic Americans, or whatever is appropriate), etc.
• Shares your vision for what you want to accomplish
• Has the necessary contacts to help you get paying gigs when the time is right

Beyond choosing the right teacher, I'd suggest that you also:

• Start saving money for a wardrobe of 3-4 (or more) professional-quality costumes, but don't buy them until you're closer to being ready for "prime time". (Styles change, and you won't want to look outdated once you're ready to start seeking gigs.)
• Take private lessons at least once a month, more often if you can afford them.
• Practice extensively every day. Remember the feedback your teacher gave you in your last class, and when you practice try to work on the areas of improvement she suggested.
• Cross-train in another stage/theater dance form such as jazz or modern dance.
• Start building a library of Middle Eastern music that really moves you - music you'll want to use once you start performing professionally.
• Learn how to edit your own music.
• Train your body to be strong and athletic. For example, do yoga, lift weights, get cardio exercise often enough to whip yourself into shape.
• Embrace opportunities to perform as often as possible at amateur-friendly events such as haflas, student recitals, city-sponsored festivals, etc.
• Videotape yourself dancing once every month or two and critique yourself on video. Seek your teacher's input too, and compare how your self-critique differs from your teacher's.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

While you have a good point in that the definition of 'professional' should be clarified, I am not sure that given the parameters of the original question, that it applies.

{{{{HUGS}}}

I hear ya, and agree. I don't mean that "professional" needs to be clarified here, only that it can mean a lot of things so the person who asks "What does it take to go pro in 2 years" should clarify what that means to *her*. Maybe she wants be pro in the town she lives in, or maybe she's gunning for BDSS, or maybe she wants to get an agent in the Middle East and dance in 5 star hotels in Dubai. Maybe she wants to keep her day job, or maybe she wants dance to support her completely.

I guess my point is that being clear about what you want makes it easier to form an action plan for getting there. There's no industry standard on what "professsional" means, so I'd hope that the very eager and ambitious student had some idea of what she was aiming for.

ps: do you hug this much in real life? ..l;,

Originally Posted by bananarchy

ps: do you hug this much in real life? ..l;,

If I tell you that I was lucky enough to study with Dr. Leo Buscaglia, would that help answer your question?

anyone have the link to the original thread?

This is wonderful advice! My degree is in Int'l affairs and Women's Studies, but my passion is bellydance (and writing, but that's a different story). Thanks again to the original forum poster for asking the question, and for everyone's meaningful advice.

Hugs from Bellydancefanatic

As I've only been studying belly dance for 10 years, I'm not yet in a position to judge people who have become professional in 2 years.

However, I asked some of my ballet buddies the question asked here. They said a two-year professional dancer doesn't exist. Is belly dancing a lesser art form than ballet, in that we expect to be professional in just two years?
They thought it was a good question.

No one in ballet would have the lycra balls to expect to be in professional in two years. No student would ask their teacher when they would become professional: it just happens, usually after daily training throughout youth to be followed by a 4-year intensive college program, but sometimes never.

This seems to be the case in most other dance forms, not just ballet. I guess patience IS a virtue.

I think a good question to ask would be why would somebody want to become a professional so soon?

The word professional can have so many meanings. And what makes one person a professional and another a semi-professional? I have always viewed belly dance education as any other education...Unless you have a genius level I.Q., you ain't completing an Associates, Bachelors and Masters Degrees back to back in 2 years flat. And just like anything else you learn in college, your education continues well after the degree is earned. Anyone worth their salt, no matter the level of professionalism, should continue the learning process...there is always something new to learn out there.

I never saw the original post by Sadie in 2003...I can however tell you that she began taking classes with Joynan back in 1998 I believe...it could have been 1997. I was there. I was in Joynan's advanced classes and learning troupe choreography (for Navel Manuvers) when Sadie started out. When Sadie became a headliner (and hit mainstream), she had way more then 2 years of classes under her belt.

I agree with Shira's post all the way.

I believe it takes alot more then the desire and chance. It takes an enormous amount of time, energy, money and most of all commitment. Taking a class here or there, a workshop once in a while, dancing only to the same 10 songs you know and sticking with the same teacher isn't going to get you in the "professional" realm any time soon.

Quoting one of my all time favorite cheesy Stallone movies 'Oscar' - "You dunna rusha Leonardo, You dunna rusha Michelangelo, You dunna rusha Fenucci"....
All great things take time to accomplish. Working hard towards a goal is great, but enjoy the experience of getting there.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

A few thoughts:

[*]Videotape yourself dancing once every month or two and critique yourself on video. Seek your teacher's input too, and compare how your self-critique differs from your teacher's.[/list]

Shira - thank you for this tip. It had not occurred to me to get someone else to critique a video tape of a performance.

Originally Posted by Amaryllis

I have always viewed belly dance education as any other education...Unless you have a genius level I.Q., you ain't completing an Associates, Bachelors and Masters Degrees back to back in 2 years flat. And just like anything else you learn in college, your education continues well after the degree is earned. Anyone worth their salt, no matter the level of professionalism, should continue the learning process...there is always something new to learn out there.

I agree with this Amaryllis.

Sometimes a dancer is asked to perform for standard wages after a short amount of training. I think humility is key in belly bunny years After all, humility is what makes you continue the long learning process.

Additionally, I think there's a big difference in waiting for professionalism (whatever that may be) to happen and making it happen. By its nature in any art form, professionalism cannot be forced. It does not automatically happen after ___ years. I don't think it's something a dancer can count on.

Originally Posted by kamilia

I think a good question to ask would be why would somebody want to become a professional so soon?

Having met the OP at Rakassah, and knowing she has already had at least several years of dance training from that event, I assumed the current poster meant taking it to professional in 2 years after several years of being a student.

Edit - dangling participle - not that I know she has dance training from the event, but rather, at the event, talking with her, I gathered that she had at least a few years of experience.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

Having met the OP at Rakassah, and knowing she has already had at least several years of dance training from that event, I assumed the current poster meant taking it to professional in 2 years after several years of being a student.

Was it after several years of belly dance training? If so, I misunderstood

I think the question still stands, though, even for a student of several years. Professionalism cannot be forced, it's not something that can really be put on a time line. It can happen when a dancer shows s/he has something to offer the audience, but sometimes it never happens.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

Having met the OP at Rakassah, and knowing she has already had at least several years of dance training from that event, I assumed the current poster meant taking it to professional in 2 years after several years of being a student.

and that was part of the original statement,ie: building on previous dance experience.

Amaryllis - thank you for telling us about Sadie's previous training. In 2003 I was still pretty fresh to the BD scene and had not heard of Sadie before this. When she came on the board, she was direct, polite and truly interensted in what we had to say. As I said, I knew she had had previous experience, but no twhat it was.

Kamilia -

What you say about not being able to put becoming a 'professional' on a time line is true. And not. Balanchine used to find talented young men and women - somewith dance backgrounds, some without - and train them on a very specific time line. Especially the men. The New York City Ballet model was 5 years. Natually there was a very high fall out curve.

Okay, I am a former bunhead. And yes, I danced semi-professionally. Before and through Uni.

I personally like the list we develop here because one of the things we do is to help to make sure that the 6 week wonders understand that this is a very difficult thing to acheive. I have had many e-mails saying, I want to dance for pay in a restaurant this time next year. I have never taken a belly dance class before. This type of conversation is good for that.

And, if someone does what we are laying out, two years later if they are not performing at a very high level, there must be something wrong.

As far as comparing learing to bellydance to out side 'real world' jobs, have you recently asked the RN at your Dr.s office what her degree level is? My sister has a Masters degree. My sister-in-law, an Associates. SiL is a Unit manager. . .

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Kamilia -

What you say about not being able to put becoming a 'professional' on a time line is true. And not. Balanchine used to find talented young men and women - somewith dance backgrounds, some without - and train them on a very specific time line. Especially the men. The New York City Ballet model was 5 years. Natually there was a very high fall out curve.

Okay, I am a former bunhead.

I hate to admit it, but...me, too I'm glad someone speaks my language and gave me a ballet example I can understand! jk ..g.:

Standards for men in many dance forms are different than standards for women. Men face less competition and are in higher demand, so I can see why men could realistically be trained on that schedule.

Well, I guess that's besides the point...anyway, I can imagine 5 years of intensive daily supervised training in one art form getting someone somewhere. I guess my point is, though, that it's not guaranteed to yield professional results. Even after the rigorous NYC Ballet training, there were people who were not ready.

I think it's good to make lists like this too. Sure, there's no guarantees, but I think it's useful. It's good for motivation, and it also lets people know that, hey, if they still aren't professionals after 10 years, that's okay - because it takes a lot of work to get there, not just time. And then they can weigh if they really want it or not. For example, for myself, I don't imagine ever giving up my day job to dance. I love dancing so much but I don't think I have what it takes to make it a full-time profession. So at a certain point, there are things (like my career in software) that I won't sacrifice for dance. I don't beat myself up for not being Jillina.

I used to wonder why I wasn't any good after 2 years of taking weekly classes. A friend pointed out that the BDSS not only had many more years of experience, they were training every day and probably taking multiple classes.

At that point, I realized that if I wanted to be any good (being professional wasn't even in my mind) - I needed to practice every day and go to more than one class per week. It was great motivation for me.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

And, if someone does what we are laying out, two years later if they are not performing at a very high level, there must be something wrong.

I think even after what is being laid out (is that the correct past participle?? I HATE that one), it is perfectly possible to not be performing at a high level, even if you are a talented individual.

The plans mentioned here are no substitute for hours of lessons daily with skilled teachers as other dancers get in intensive training tracks. They are also no substitute for experience. I know it was mentioned that the learning process will always continue, but...this really just brings back the question, why do we feel belly dancers can be called professional with essentially less training than dancers in other art forms?

I'm asking this question just for discussion. I started performing for money after just two years of belly dance training, so I'm not asking this question from the lonely top of Prima Donna Belly Dance Mountain (there's too little oxygen up there, anyway, makes people hallucinate and think they're all that).

I realize I can't use myself as proof as to why it can't happen as I am not a dance prodigy. I sucked back then (and have no idea why people wanted me to dance for them) but that's my own problem. However, I don't see how experience and depth of understanding that are necessary for a high-level performance in any dance form can be simulated in 2 years.

Call me old-fashioned, but I think a good dose of humility helps in the green stages of a dancer's career. This gets back to relativity of the definition of professionalism, and the necessity to continue dance education; but, there is room for everyone to grow even after being asked to dance for money. Those first gigs are essentially training for our careers. Performance experience, and everything that comes with it, is what gives our stylings those nuances that will eventually make our dancing in this interpretive art high-level.

I'm actually trying to give up my day job for dance. I don't know exactly how i want to do that exactly (I have an idea). but i have laid out a plan for improving my dance dramatically in the next year. i plan to strenghthen my body (strength training and more aerobic exercise) and do as many work shops as i can and take a many classes from as many teachers as i can. I figured that my one night a week of taking class and one night a week of teaching class is not enough to get to the level i want to be at by then.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

I think it's good to make lists like this too. Sure, there's no guarantees, but I think it's useful. It's good for motivation, and it also lets people know that, hey, if they still aren't professionals after 10 years, that's okay - because it takes a lot of work to get there, not just time. And then they can weigh if they really want it or not. For example, for myself, I don't imagine ever giving up my day job to dance. I love dancing so much but I don't think I have what it takes to make it a full-time profession. So at a certain point, there are things (like my career in software) that I won't sacrifice for dance. I don't beat myself up for not being Jillina.

I like the idea of having these lists, too, just as long as they mention what kind of training professional dancers get (like what you mention about the BDSS), and that experience makes a dancer great (maybe that Bobby Farrah quote should be in there!).

I think those lists should mention that you should concentrate and work hard on what kind of dancer YOU want to be. It could prevent a lot of cattiness, people on the lonely top of Prima Donna Belly Dancer Mountain, self-proclamations of grandeur...Is there an expression to put in there, too, like "humility is a virtue?" That would be nice...

I think most reasonable people in the midst of their dance life still have a goal for themselves. We should always strive to improve and see the potential for growth.

Hi Kamilia,
I think your observations on becoming a technically-proficient dancer are right on. And I think bellydancers have yet an additional discipline to learn if they want to be professional - business promotion, marketing, etc. - that ballerinas hired into a company as a salaried employee don't necessary have.

Originally Posted by rakgirl

... and do as many work shops as i can and take a many classes from as many teachers as i can.

Hi rakgirl,
I see a lot of people advocate this approach - as many classes/teachers/workshops as fast as you can. Early on, as one is sussing out different styles, I think this has a great benefit, but for me, after about 10 years in bellydance, it sort of dilutes or distracts me from what I'm trying to achieve. I'd rather go deep than wide, I guess, with a few teachers that really focus on the style that speaks to me.
Just another perspective...we all learn differently. :)
Christine

Originally Posted by CFerhat

Hi Kamilia,
I think your observations on becoming a technically-proficient dancer are right on. And I think bellydancers have yet an additional discipline to learn if they want to be professional - business promotion, marketing, etc. - that ballerinas hired into a company as a salaried employee don't necessary have.

OMG, you're right! I never thought about it that way: ballerinas have no business savvy! (Well, maybe if we added cross elastic to the press package, it would restrict the client's high arch while en pointe...)

Seriously, I think ballerinas have to learn it if they become teachers or famous or something, but you're right: it's usually not part of their regular training. That's one advantage to noting the necessity of business know-how on OUR little list.

Originally Posted by bethsoren

Being much newer to this site, I'd like to re-ask the question: What does is take to become a professional dancer in under 2 years?

yes, lots of work. Practising for hours on end, taking as many workshops as possible and studying hours of video footage. And you need a lot of natural ability to dance and hear the music. If you don't have that, then it's much harder to become a pro. Also, it helps to know other pro dancers.

for all the talk on here, what's really interesting is that great dancers like Fifi Abdou and Lucy both claim to be 'self taught' with no formal training. Any comments on that?

Kamilia -

The plans here are suggesting that the dancer do 10 hours of group belly dance classes and several hours of private every week. Plus cross training in Yoga, pilates, jazz, ballet, modern and folk dance. At the very least. Plus workshops, performing in showcases, which would require some rehearsal, plus studying the culture, music and history of Belly dance. Attending a lot of shows and watching a lot of videos. And traveling to Turkey and Egypt to study if the dancer can.

If my math is correct, we are suggesting this is a 60 - 80 hour a week training. This is living, breathing, eating belly dance and related activities. We are not suggesting that this could be easily done while you are having a 'real' life or without substantial financial resources behind you.

I am currently in Grad school and working full time. I would love to have an amount of money that would enable me to spend much more time training and much less time working. because I really want to kick my game up several notches. I live in LA and have access to a lot of really world class teachers. Is it reasonable for me to expect that if I increase the 2 classes a week I currently take, (plus the practice time) to 10 weekly, it would raise me to a much higher level? Absolutely. Would it put me on the level of Jillina, etc? I don't know and frankly, that isn't something which could be determined until the time comes. there are too many factors which come into play to be able to determine that.

Another point that you make, I agree with but I think is a separate issue: just because you are professional, does that mean that you have stopped learning? And I think that the answer we have seen here from the get go is no. That there is always more to learn. but just because you are still learning, does this mean that you are not professional? that you should be humble about what you can do? That you shouldn't market yourself, push yourself, seek out both the best teachers, mentors, etc and opportunities to perform?

And what happens if you, like me, have a teacher who, for what ever reason, does not encourage her students to push themselves or to perform on any level? Even when that is the students goal? I sought out other, supportive, teachers, later discovered that my original teacher rarely suggested her students perform, attend festivals, or dance related activities because she might lose paying students. I spent over a year with her. If I had allowed humility to rule me, I would have spent 5 and never put on a costume, being very frustrated because, having had previous dance training, I KNEW I should have been advancing faster then I was.

Once again, I hold that if someone is doing as we suggest - immersing themselves into training in this dance for 2 years, unless there is some real barrier which we are not taking into account here, they will be at a very high level. It really cannot be otherwise.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

Shira - thank you for this tip. It had not occurred to me to get someone else to critique a video tape of a performance.

This is an extremely good way of teaching yourself. Videoing is brutally honest, ,as often, mirrors show us what we want to see. Video doesn't. I used this technique to train myself and spent hours scrutinising my faults. You will be your fiercest critic.