Where are those bi-gender student threads?

[aazura]

I got this email in my box this morning:

Dear Azura,

I have been looking for a good Belly Dance instructor in the Boston area, and came across your website. I must say that I am very impressed by what I see.

I have had a fascination for womens styles of dancing from a young age- Indian, Tahitian, Polynesian (Otea, Aparima etc.) and always wanted to learn them, but being a guy, was never allowed or encouraged to do so.

However, at this point I would really like to learn Belly Dancing, and become proficient in it as time goes by. I am looking for an instructor who would be willing to teach me the womens styles of Belly Dancing, and it is not easy. Even though they are all encouraging, many say they only teach women, which is quite frustrating.

I wanted to know if you would be comfortable teaching me these styles. If so, I would be preveleged to be your student, given your experience and background. You will find me to be dedicated, and hard working.

I look forward to hearing from you soon, and do hope that you will accept me as your student.

:)

Mohan

Now, this *might* be an honest person asking about classes (which, if he really saw my website, he would realize that I'm not teaching group classes right now). However, I'm a little suspicious that this might be that creepy guy posing as a potential student who wants to wear a skirt in class and learn to put on make-up, etc. I could be wrong, but I can't think of any instructors that I know here in Boston that have a "women only" policy.

I tried to find those old threads, but didn't come up with anything on this site or in classic bhuz. Perhaps someone else has better luck? Or we could drag up this topic again and people can post their experiences with this guy.

He did leave a Boston cell number, so I'm guessing he's local at least.

Thanks Bhuzzers!!

[ssipes]

do a search on the term transgender maybe rather than bigender.

It does sound a bit suspicious that he mentions other teachers have rejected him; this just doesn't happen very much in the US.

[Athallia]

Though he signs a different the name the wording sounds like something Jay/Jazmine would say. Assuming that it's the same guy, you can read all about him in this thread on Shira's tribe The "I wanna wear a skirt to class" guy - Belly Dancing - the Shira.net Tribe - tribe.net

[zorba]

Aside from the fact that there's no such thing as "women's style" or "men's style" Belly Dance - do proceed with caution. It doesn't sound right to me - if your WebSite says you're not doing group classes, etc. OTOH, I've noticed over the years that people often DON'T READ, and ask stupid questions anyways...

As far as wearing skirts in class - I do if the dance calls for one. I'm like that guy discussed on Shira's tribe, I wear skirts full time in my mundane life for the same reason he did; they're far more comfortable (and I like the style). I generally wear pants Belly Dancing as I figure that I warp the audience's minds enough with my mere presence - but my instructor introduced an Andalusian "Gypsy" style dance last year, and I didn't want to miss out on all the fun so I wear one for that. Not as "drag" or whatever - as I say on my website: "I'm do not seek to be a woman nor look like one as I am not; yet I do seek masculine beauty". I'm just a guy in a skirt when I wear one.

But the guy *IS* better off wearing pants in class (generally) just like the gals are for the above mentioned reasons. As for makeup - yea, I wear it onstage or a toned down version if my wife and I are "going out", but who wants to deal with it in CLASS?!? Yuk - copious amounts of sweat like you get in class just doesn't mix with makeup!

I *always* advise teachers to proceed with caution with ANY male student, especially beginners who can't give "references". Maybe the guy is legit, maybe not - he's definitely somewhat on the clueless side.

[aazura]

Thanks guys! I was trying to remember the guy's name in the previous threads. I'll try searching "transgender" though I specifically remember one thread using the phrase "bigender" b/c there was a comment from someone who read the word as "big ender" at first! In any case, I'll proceed with caution of course.

Thanks also for your observations Zorba. I don't have a problem with men wearing skirts or make up unless they are specifically doing it for shock/creep value, as Jay/Jazmine clearly was.

Will post an update later!

[ThespiSis]

Though he signs a different the name the wording sounds like something Jay/Jazmine would say. Assuming that it's the same guy, you can read all about him in this thread on Shira's tribe The "I wanna wear a skirt to class" guy - Belly Dancing - the Shira.net Tribe - tribe.net

I've had this type of call--but not dance-related. I used to work the JC Penney call center on the night shift, and usually after midnight the weirdos would come out of the woodworks. Every now and then I'd get some creep who wanted to talk about buying women's underwear and his feelings and worries about buying women's underwear but not actually buying any underwear. Now, the difference between someone who was seriously interested in such and someone who was just trying to practice some self-love with the assistance of the telephone sales rep was the serious guys didn't make any big deal about it. They just bought their duds and hung up. Your only clue for them was that they didn't mention they were buying for a wife or girlfriend (which some men need to feel is necessary to explain). I would keep the creepies on the phone just long enough to fill in my nuisance call sheet (including their phone number from the caller ID...morons) and then hang up. Sometimes I didn't even stay on the phone that long...because I could hear them (ew).

[*Shira*]

With a bit of creative searching, I found the thread on Bhuz Classic:

Bhuz Forum - New bigender student HELP!

[david]

Hi, I recently had a phone call from a person on the other coast of the country inquiring if I would be willing to teach him to dance. He straight up said that he wanted to learn to belly dance and get in touch with his feminine side thorough the dance. I was following him pretty well so far until he said that he wanted to wear a full costume, make up and a wig in class. I contered the idea with the fact that even though he "just wanted to dance" it was impossible for him to "just" do something he didnt know how to do and in order for me to guide him correctly and safely, ALL of my students are required to wear pants. Costumes are not encouraged as they belong on stage and not in class. It would be sad to ruin costumes by sweating in them as much as you would do in class. He understood and thought it made sense and thanked me for the conversation and hung up.

I was quite perplexed by the phone call as most people find our websites intimidating and the information "too advanced" for them. It's been years since I last received one of these calls.

I would say that what is important to do as an instructor - and a fellow dancer - is to clarify to the potential student WHY it is improper to wear full costumes in class etc. most people will understand.

I myself had no desire of wearing skirts when I started taking lessons but I was still encouraged to take private lessons rather than regular classes due to my individual needs as a dancer and visibility as a male. Which has worked out really well for me, if I may say so myself.

I understand the desire to avoid uncomfortable situations, but at the same time we do have a responsibility as instructors to abolish ignorance about the dance, right? so, eventough it's weird and uncomfortable - if we can save the ignorant one by one - the potential students are a good place to start.

D

[Bellydancingcaroline]

For once I have nothing to say ! (I don't know anything about this topic) ... But please let us know how this goes.

[Zumarrad]

OK, now just hold up here. The man is NOT NECESSARILY a trans/skirt-wearer/freakazoid/anything other than a man who is asking very politely for information about classes. It is *true* that in many cultures men are dissuaded from taking "women's" styles of dance, and many people assume belly dance is female by default, and it's possible the only men he's seen in a belly dance context have been chaps in galabeyas swinging sticks.

Where in this guy's polite email does he ask about wearing skirts or makeup? Sure, he *could* be a creep but there is nothing in his email to indicate it.

[*Shira*]

Zum, I'd agree that the email aazura received has a different tone from the "I wanna wear a skirt" guy.

Her correspondent did NOT ask about wearing skirts/makeup to class, and did NOT start asking, "What would the other students think if I came to class in a skirt?" and his inquiry came via email rather than via phone. Both of my encounters with the "I wanna wear a skirt," guy were via telephone, and in both he had a lot more interest in discussing skirts, makeup, and discovering his feminine side than he did in asking about the content/administrivia details of the class.

[meissoun]

I have mentionned my one male private student before (the 50+ primary school teacher who wants to dance like Shakira).
Well, after one or two years of workshops (with me and other teachers at our studio) and private lessons in Oriental dance we have now come to a point where he brought me the CD for "Beautiful Lyar" and wanted to learn a choreo to it in heels.

It's not my usual dance style, but hey, he's a sweet guy and pays well so how could I refuse. He even bought himself a pair of pumps and a short dress and I guess he will want to perform the dance at some party.

Just because a man wants to dance like a woman doesn't meen he is bi-gender or a freak. He otherwise looks quite male and isn't openly gay (not a good idea in his position I guess). And he's a really nice person. He even gets invited to our birthday parties ..g.:

So I would say, talk to this man some more and then give it a try.

MEISSOUN

[aazura]

OK, now just hold up here. The man is NOT NECESSARILY a trans/skirt-wearer/freakazoid/anything other than a man who is asking very politely for information about classes. It is *true* that in many cultures men are dissuaded from taking "women's" styles of dance, and many people assume belly dance is female by default, and it's possible the only men he's seen in a belly dance context have been chaps in galabeyas swinging sticks.

Where in this guy's polite email does he ask about wearing skirts or makeup? Sure, he *could* be a creep but there is nothing in his email to indicate it.

I totally agree and I'm not trying to label the guy or anything. I just wanted to re-inform myself about the potential creep that I know is out there, that's all. I think it's important to be informed, just in case.

I responded to his email telling him that I only teach private classes to serious students (which is true) and that I generally do not take beginners for private classes (which is also true). I also asked him who the instructors were with the "women only" policy so that I could perhaps try to refer him to someone else. My hope is that if he does turn out to be a creep, some of my inquiries will bring it out. If he genuinely wants to learn to dance, then I am happy to help him find an instructor.

So sorry if my original post sounded accusatory, because that was not my intention. I was just trying to find the other posts about the "skirt guy" to remind myself about his MO... just in case this guy turns creepy on me.

I agree that his email is very polite, and actually that's one of the things that made me suspicious. He's very complimentary, and while that's flattering, I'm no Superstar, so it leads me to think that he's trying to use compliments to throw me off my guard (as some preditors do). Also, most emails I receive about classes are much more informal in tone. The formal nature of this email reminds me a bit of the "I want my daughter to come to the US to study with you... let me send you a money order..." scam. Again, you're right, he could be someone who just wants to learn belly dance. But I think in this day of scams and creeps, it never hurts to inform yourself and proceed with caution.

[aazura]

With a bit of creative searching, I found the thread on Bhuz Classic:

Bhuz Forum - New bigender student HELP!

Super--thanks Shira!! ..g.:

[indigostars]

I used to live in Boston, and I don't know of any teacher who had an explicit "female only" rule. Then again, I am female, so the thought never occurred to ask. He sounds kind of misinformed. Depending on where he's from originally (his name looks foreign to me), he might just be really polite due to culture; I hate sounding stereotypical, but most of my friends who've been fresh from another country tend to be very well-mannered and formal with people they don't know well

If he cannot find a belly dance teacher in Boston, I know he can take Indian dance there. My old teacher, Neena Gulati, had at least one male student while I was there (this past year). He could learn Odissi, Kuchipudi, or Bharatanatyam.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be suspicious, but some things could actually be very plausible.

[badriya_al_ahmar]

I used to live in Boston, and I don't know of any teacher who had an explicit "female only" rule.

Of the four teachers I've had in the Boston area, all of them were open to having male students in their classes (one was a former student of Amir Thaleb, so how couldn't she be? ;) And I've known of other teachers who have had male students in the past. There may well be teachers who do not want male students in their classes (or classes who have asked their teachers not to allow male students) but I'd think they would be the minority here.

[aazura]

Well, I have yet to hear back from him... so who knows...

[katinabd]

My friend is a teacher in Boston and she had the same guy email her. She didnt know what to think either?

[Nisima]

Aside from the fact that there's no such thing as "women's style" or "men's style" Belly Dance - do proceed with caution. It doesn't sound right to me - if your WebSite says you're not doing group classes, etc. OTOH, I've noticed over the years that people often DON'T READ, and ask stupid questions anyways...

As far as wearing skirts in class - I do if the dance calls for one. I'm like that guy discussed on Shira's tribe, I wear skirts full time in my mundane life for the same reason he did; they're far more comfortable (and I like the style). I generally wear pants Belly Dancing as I figure that I warp the audience's minds enough with my mere presence - but my instructor introduced an Andalusian "Gypsy" style dance last year, and I didn't want to miss out on all the fun so I wear one for that. Not as "drag" or whatever - as I say on my website: "I'm do not seek to be a woman nor look like one as I am not; yet I do seek masculine beauty". I'm just a guy in a skirt when I wear one.

But the guy *IS* better off wearing pants in class (generally) just like the gals are for the above mentioned reasons. As for makeup - yea, I wear it onstage or a toned down version if my wife and I are "going out", but who wants to deal with it in CLASS?!? Yuk - copious amounts of sweat like you get in class just doesn't mix with makeup!

I *always* advise teachers to proceed with caution with ANY male student, especially beginners who can't give "references". Maybe the guy is legit, maybe not - he's definitely somewhat on the clueless side.

Our teacher/troupe director, who has a website advertising classes, troupe performances, has gotten calls in the past year twice from guys who are not only clueless but creepy to boot: Here's her retelling of one conversatio:

He: "Hi, I saw pictures of you on your website, do you teach men in your belly dance classes"?
Teacher: "yes, I will teach any student serious about learning the art of belly dance, including understanding of the music and cultural context."
He: "well, that's good because I would like to meet sexy female belly dancers to have fun in class with."
Teacher: "my students are presently all women and although they all love to dance, they are not taking classes to meet guys socially so your goals would not be a good fit.
He: "Okay, but do you know where else I can meet sexy female belly dancers........"
Teacher: "No, I cannot help you at all, and my husband, the lead drummer for my troupe's band, is signalling me to hang up the phone now". (hangs up, creep deterred by possibility of tirade from angry drummer husband)...g.:
True story and recent! Gawd, the creeps out there!

[zorba]

Gak. Its creeps like this who cause teachers (and students) not to want male students.

I try to head this off in my article for "prospective male students":

Getting Started

But don't know if it does any good, sigh....

[indigostars]

I think you're writing for a different audience than the kind of men who are generally contacting the teachers. It'

[zorba]

Oh, no doubt. Still, even a serious (male) student sometimes needs to get a clue, esp. in a beginner's class full of gals that are already bashful, the last thing they need is some guy ogling them, or appearing to do so even if he isn't. (Geez, how's that for a run-on sentence!)

By the time "you" get to an intermediate class, this isn't nearly as much of a consideration, but beginners can be VERY fragile.

[Elviza Isis]

I know my male student was turned down by a couple teachers when he first started looking to take classes and he dresses in sweatpants or harem pants and t-shirts for class. So it's definitely possible that he spoke with someone who dissuaded him or said no. And yes- belly dancing is belly dancing, but the distinction comes in by comparing 'masculine' styles of Arabic dance which are not necessarily belly dancing, and the 'women's style' of Middle Eastern dance, which fewer men do (although it's getting to be more now!). I've danced with some guys that can do shoulder shimmies like they're being electrocuted and are great dancers, but they don't do a lot of the other typical belly dance moves and wouldn't consider themselves belly dancers.

I booked a party recently which I'll be taking my male belly dancer to and the people were a little freaked out- they called me back asking 'Well, what exactly does he DO? Like, does he dance with knives and stuff, or something different, because we don't want it to be weird". And I said "he's gonna be dancing exactly like me" ;o). (Except I can't do the amazing big flutters he can do- little bum...)

[danielabellydance]

With a bit of creative searching, I found the thread on Bhuz Classic:

Bhuz Forum - New bigender student HELP!

Oh my God, I was contacted by this guy very recently!! He even posted a comment on my blog (check it out in the "I'm too sexy for my bedlah" post from July). He called incessantly for two days, and emailed incessantly - yes I'm coming, no I'm not coming, ok, I'll come, no I can't do it, it's not right - and even called one of the studios where I teach and creeped out the owner to the point where she made me bring my husband to class just in case he showed up. I was very encouraging in the beginning and told him to come, but after the stalker-like behavior I finally said this was NOT the place for him and I did not want him in the class.

I wish I would have remembered this thread from the beginning - I would not have been so encouraging to start. Even after the whole "I want you to treat me like a girl, but I'm not a drag queen" talk, I still gave this guy the benefit of the doubt for a while...

[danielabellydance]

Zombie thread alert...

I just got two emails from a guy named Mohan, that seemed kind of "off" to me, so I did a search and found this thread. The emails creeped me out a bit - lots of talk about learning to dance feminine and be beautiful like a woman (not that that in itself is creepy, it was just the WAY it was written).

Then he said he would be willing to make the commute from Boston (I am in NYC) as often as necessary to become an excellent bellydancer. He sent me a follow up email when I didn't respond.

Did anything ever come of this, Aazura?

[Nepenthe]

In Boston, there is at least one bellydance teacher's collective (not just one teacher - they work together) that discourages men from attending. They consider it to be more of a sacred woman's thing. I took classes with them and I remember when another student asked if a male friend could join the class - the answer was no.

I mean, it seems like everyone reacts with suspicion the moment a man asks about classes. Or especially people seem to be concerned about transgender students - but people should become aware of the fact that transgender people are not doing it for a "sex thrill" - generally, it is just a matter of the wrong body for the brain the person was born with.

[mariyah13]

Didn't read through the whole thread yet, but just wanted to say that I was contacted by this guy with almost the exact same email yesterday.
Athallia, I immediately thought of "Jasmine" too. He used to call/email me for years!

[mariyah13]

Zombie thread alert...

I just got two emails from a guy named Mohan, that seemed kind of "off" to me, so I did a search and found this thread. The emails creeped me out a bit - lots of talk about learning to dance feminine and be beautiful like a woman (not that that in itself is creepy, it was just the WAY it was written).

Then he said he would be willing to make the commute from Boston (I am in NYC) as often as necessary to become an excellent bellydancer. He sent me a follow up email when I didn't respond.

Did anything ever come of this, Aazura?

Daniela, this is exactly what I got! He also said he would commute from Boston for lessons.

[flimflamgirl]

I got this email, too...and Jasmine also used to call/email me constantly. I told both of them that they are always welcome in my class, and tried to direct them to good sources for male bellydancers who work in the "feminine" style, since that's what they expressed interest in. Jasmine once came to observe my class, but was too timid to join in. He struck me as a very sweet, painfully shy man. I'm sorry he never had the guts to just take the class.

I don't find either of these people (or maybe they're the same person?) particularly problematic. If they came to class, they would be welcome, but they would be expected to behave and dress the way everyone else does - meaning no costumes, no special treatment. I want to support male students, if they are serious.

For about a month, I had an obviously Orthodox man in my class. He might have been some form of Hasid for all I know; he only wore his gattkes (Yiddish for baggy old-man undershirts and shorts), and I didn't see any tzitzis hanging out. He was much older, with glasses and a big rabbinical beard, and had the slight Yiddish lilt that older Brooklyn Orthodox sometimes have, even if they were born here. He kept asking me if I taught private lessons. To him, I said no.

- Leela

[mariyah13]

Jasmine never showed up to any of my classes. The reason his calls were a problem for me was that I felt, as others did, that it was really all about the call and his wanting to talk about his desire to dance/dress like a girl.
I had one conversation with him where I was patient and answered all of his questions. I told him that he was welcome in class to learn dance but that I did not have time to give him special attention regarding dress/makeup and that would also not be fair to the other students.
He called several times after that and tried to pursue the same line of questioning but I always politely cut the conversation short and tell him the classes are ongoing and all location info is on my website if he would like to show up.
I have never been able to avoid his calls because he always calls from a blocked number.