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Thread: Respecting the Stage




  1. #31
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Zumarrad's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Quote Originally Posted by caroline_afifi View Post
    I have come across dancers who are reluctant to wear make-up, or just dont know how to apply it because they dont own.

    I usually bring in a pro make-up artist to do the make-up for my shows and those who opt not to use her have to be very good at doing their own.

    Some people think they can do stage make-up but I have often been shocked by the make-up presentation on some dancers. I have seen shocking pink lipstick with lots of blue eyeshadow worn with a costume which is black and yellow. I have seen make-up drawn on like some sort of clown or cartoon character.

    I agree with the whole 'make-up is a costume' thing but please advise your fellow dancers and dont say they look good if they look like some sort of drag artist/pantomime dame or worse.. a blow up doll with a slow punture!
    I've got to admit, though, that some dancers I've seen who, up close, look like they were drawn on with crayon, look fabulous under proper theatre lights. More fabulous than me with all my blending.
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  2. #32
    Advanced BHUZzer caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Th
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumarrad View Post
    I've got to admit, though, that some dancers I've seen who, up close, look like they were drawn on with crayon, look fabulous under proper theatre lights. More fabulous than me with all my blending.
    Thats true but there is a difference between makeup for a stage with theatre lights and a gig in a restaurant or party.. some people have 'one style of application fits all'.


  3. #33
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Oh definitely! And I don't know if you've noticed it where you are, but at BD events, people are runnning round in six inch lashes and tons of contour etc even if it's just a hafla, because it gets kind of competitive. I mean, if SHE is wearing all that, you look stupid in a toned down look.
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  4. #34
    Ultimate BHUZzer Tourbeau's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Quote Originally Posted by caroline_afifi View Post
    I agree with the whole 'make-up is a costume' thing but please advise your fellow dancers and dont say they look good if they look like some sort of drag artist/pantomime dame or worse.. a blow up doll with a slow punture!
    But in some areas, there are dancers whose approach is to tell students to go off on their own (usually to an "ethnic" wig store) and find a drag queen to teach them how to put on makeup. Doing stage makeup properly isn't just slapping on more cosmetics than you usually wear, and it's not something you do once, got it, I'm all set. Each face is unique, it takes practice to get good at it, and proper makeup depends on the circumstances. (What looks good on the Broadway stage doesn't necessarily translate to a hotel conference room under lighting conditions that were determined by the length of the electrical cords.) The glib advice of "Go find a drag queen" isn't a real solution. It's not the drag community's job to teach our students one at a time. It's our own teachers' job to be providing this information, or at least to be providing a substitute resource if they can't/won't. Besides, isn't it bizarre to assume that: (a) it's equally easy for anyone to befriend a drag queen, and (b) all drag queens are equally good at applying stage makeup? I suspect the dance community and the drag community are similar in that the less likely you are to live in a large, cosmopolitan area, the less likely you are to have an abundance of experts at your disposal.
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  5. #35
    Advanced BHUZzer caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    But, people can experiment at home with cheap make-up.

    Here is a channel on youtube I have found very to be very helpfull

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  6. #36
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    To the OP, Shira, I think you have a very good starting list. I would say that honoring musicians is rarely taught; but, I believe it is also polite and important to honor the poor soul with the worst seat in the house: the person playing the music for the event. They have the most power over the show, and deserve considerable acknowledgment. The other thing to add, is to respect the stage for the NEXT dancer: don't abandon your veil with the expectation that the "staff" will get it, don't wear costumes that you KNOW will shed (feathers are the worst), if you have a bead explosion, ask the stage hands to sweep before the next dancer, etc.

    And, for crying out loud, know when to enter on your music and how to exit! This is a rarely taught art, only about 2 of my teachers covered it; but on stages (vs. casual venues with more casual music) it is really important to understand the difference between the overture and the tune, and how to signal to you audience that you are about to leave. Screeching stops are not quite magical.


  7. #37
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    There were a lot of posts to choose from for quoting, but this one seemed to have the most for discussion:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tourbeau View Post
    Leading by example is necessary, but not sufficient. There are already lots of dancers who do the right things, but it doesn't transfer to the ones who aren't making the connection that their behavior should change to match the good example's. If they're not intuiting it on their own, the obvious conclusion would be that someone has to come out and tell them.
    Agreed. Those who are the best in their professions don't just rely on instruction, they rely on Mentors. Instructors should encourage their students to find and use mentors, as well as being a mentor to their students. This means going out to shows with them, discussing what was seen candidly, afterwards, and in the right location (not in the lobby, in the car!). It means offering real time feedback after the student performs, picking one or two things at a time to work on, and giving that one-on-one time that each student needs to grow.


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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Quote Originally Posted by Tourbeau View Post
    Right now, our educational system doesn't do a very good job of addressing stagecraft. Partially that's because so many students don't start out planning to dance for an audience, so teachers don't emphasize this material early on. They don't want to harangue about professionalism to students just in it for fun, they don't want to discourage the shy ones by making performances seem mandatory, and as I already posted, some teachers lack knowledge in this material themselves. Teachers don't start out in Class One teaching performing responsibilities and stagecraft skills, and by the time students start contemplating soloing or taking paying gigs, they're already in the bad habit of thinking these things aren't important or don't apply to them. Even worse, some dancers are already teaching and gigging before finding out they're deficient in these skills. What kind of face-saving remedial class is going to help them?

    You can't serve two masters equally well. You can't give the dance proper due as a theatrical art with an obligation to present quality to an audience at the same time as selling the dance as a grand exercise in self-fulfillment. . . .
    The topic of our educational system seems to be a theme that is dear to you. This post helps me understand your ideas more. And, with this post, I can agree completely. When I first read it, I was shaking my head thinking, "No! The first place I studied DID cover thanking the band, and thanking the audience, and being professional, and . . ." Then, I realized that was a ballet school, focusing on children's education, where I happened to be taking an adult class.

    I thought about the struggles of that teacher, who is now a dear friend. I thought about how she was caught: wanting to teach good technique, give feedback, demand more . . . but, was losing her (adult) students who, for whatever reason (felt like they had grown beyond being treated that way needed self esteem and sought it here, just there on a dare), kept dropping like flies week after week. It is a tough conundrum. I wound up leaving her class because I could not get the coaching I needed.

    Perhaps, then, what we need to do as a community, for those who are teachers, is to distinguish between those classes that are for those in the ME category, and those who are in the Middle Eastern Dancer and performer category. Perhaps, we should not push students to perform until they really are ready -- until we have really taught them how to perform, not just how to do the steps.


  9. #39
    Ultimate BHUZzer zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Quote Originally Posted by caroline_afifi View Post
    I usually bring in a pro make-up artist to do the make-up for my shows and those who opt not to use her have to be very good at doing their own.
    Oh! Can I PLEASE come and dance in your show? I'd LOVE to have a pro makeup artist at my disposal!
    ...a blow up doll with a slow puncture!
    Mind bleach! Someone please pass the mind bleach!

    Seriously, I've been doing this for 11+ years now; and while not totally clueless about makeup, I still have a lot to learn. Makeup Geek's website and YouTube channel have helped considerably.
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  10. #40
    Ultimate BHUZzer zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Quote Originally Posted by AnalaVA View Post
    don't abandon your veil with the expectation that the "staff" will get it...
    The only exception to this is when you KNOW the "Diva Rule" is in effect. I've danced in some larger shows/venues where the MC (or whomever) expects to retrieve veils, etc. But ask ahead of time if you're not sure!
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  11. #41
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Almost everything that I've found frustrating about learning this dance comes back to a lack of timely instruction in the classroom. We're all biased by our own experiences, and I've been in two different parts of the US, both with active dance communities, but neither large cities with ethnic enclaves. The student populations I've encountered have been dominated by hobbyists who, for lack of a better way of putting it, sometimes seem to be determined to learn as little as possible, and the economics of the market mean most teachers can't afford to buck that trend. I know other places are different, and there are teachers out there teaching other students these skills, but none of my teachers taught stage makeup in regular class or rehearsals, and my first teacher laughed about how it was a waste of time when she took a workshop with Bert and he made them practice entrance walks. (Silly Bert and his goofy ideas about the importance of showmanship!)

    When you undertake the study of any subject, some of it isn't going to be particularly enjoyable or suited to your personal taste, but you suck it up and muddle through it anyway because having some minimal amount of proficiency in those topics is necessary for becoming reasonably knowledgeable. An awful lot of threads on Bhuz could be eliminated if more teachers said, "You might not understand why this is important now, but trust me, it's in the curriculum for a reason. I'm trying to help you become the best dancer you can, regardless of your goals."

    Dance is, at a minimum, a social art, if not a formal performing art, so devoting some effort to learning how to present it well around other people needs to be part of the deal. Stagecraft deserves more attention than a few tossed off "Oh, yeah, whatever, I heard you should..." remarks that never get pursued with any diligence in class. Anything else is as absurd as walking into a French class and announcing you only want to learn nouns and verbs, no adjectives or adverbs, because you're not planning on ever modifying anything descriptively. No, it's the teacher's job to provide you with a sensibly prioritized, reasonably thorough body of knowledge, and you can use whatever subset of that information you want on your own time.


  12. #42
    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Zumarrad's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Besides, isn't it bizarre to assume that: (a) it's equally easy for anyone to befriend a drag queen, and (b) all drag queens are equally good at applying stage makeup?
    Not to mention, some drag queens are Rupaul and Danny La Rue, and some are Divine.
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  13. #43
    Official BHUZzer princessfarhana's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    One of my pet peeves is seeing dancers who have obviously been well-trained technique-wise, but are lacking in presentation, the dramatic aspects of dance, costuming, or stage make up. : (

    This has concerned me for a very long time.

    Ok, so here comes a shameless plug: my instructional stage make up DVD "Bombshell" Dramatic Make Up For The Stage, Photos & Glamourous Occasions" will be released next week. It has full instruction for large stages, smaller theaters and more intimate venues-- and also stresses the difference between make up for the stage and for photography.

    The trailer just went up on youtube:
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  14. #44
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    One of my pet peeves is seeing dancers who have obviously been well-trained technique-wise, but are lacking in presentation, the dramatic aspects of dance, costuming, or stage make up. : (

    This has concerned me for a very long time.
    I took a few workshops from an instructor years ago that actually despised the pro type costumes on dancers - she felt we should all spend our money on training and not on costumes. And to some extent I see that point that newer dancers do need to train, then invest in costumes, but this is a PERFORMING art and she unfortunately missed that concept, and it showed in her performances.

    DVD look fun Princess! I will check it out


  15. #45
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Quote Originally Posted by devra1 View Post
    I took a few workshops from an instructor years ago that actually despised the pro type costumes on dancers - she felt we should all spend our money on training and not on costumes. And to some extent I see that point that newer dancers do need to train, then invest in costumes, but this is a PERFORMING art and she unfortunately missed that concept, and it showed in her performances.

    DVD look fun Princess! I will check it out
    But I do think the instructor had a point.. I too wish people would not prioritise training over costumes. A costume does not dance.. once the 'ooh factor' has passed the rest comes down to skill and many people try to package over talent.

    Belly dance is largely a performance art, but not everyone is destined for the stage and can enjoy the partcipation and community aspects of the scene.. far more than performing.

    For me, the central purpose of performing is entertaining.. and a part of that is wearing an entertaining 'uniform' which provides us with another aspect of visual stimulation.
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  16. #46
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    This is also where having guidance from the teacher is important. hair, make up, costume are details which, if you don't have a theatrical back ground - and sometimes even if you do - you are going to need some help with understanding unless you have spent a lot of time researching the topic. Many of my first performances were with desk hair and min. make up, and I do have a performance back ground! I wish someone had sat me down and said, look. . .

    {{{HUGS}}}
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Coming from a long time student background, I was never a professional performer, but performed at least a couple of times a year, in theatres, clubs and outdoor festivals.

    I can say that all my teachers actually came from a performance background, and all of them had regularly danced with live bands. The difference between them and teachers that didn't come from a performance background, and I would say that many teachers are in that category, was that they taught performance skills as part of their teaching, it wasn't something tacked on just before a performance.

    One teacher I had used to do workshops as she recognised that it was an essential skill to have. I know everyone bashes the Hilal School or the modern day RSS, but they were very good at teaching performance skills as it was expected at some point that you would perform, and that you needed to know these skills as otherwise you weren't allowed on the stage (the merit of their performances we'll comment on another time).

    This I think comes to the crux of the matter, that many teachers do not come from a performing background, so are not in the best position to teach these skills.

    I also think that too many teachers are afraid to upset their students, and put their foot down and ensure that their students have a good understanding of stagecraft before they're even allowed to set foot on stage (any stage not literally a theatre). I'm sympathetic to why teachers do this, as I've seen what can happen with teachers trying to uphold high standards to students not interested in listening, and it's a big price to pay to lose your students this way.

    Unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is, there have been teachers that tried to bring in higher standards and they were pulled down by the majority of teachers who were afraid and didn't want to change, so I don't hold much hope for anything to change soon.


  18. #48
    Official BHUZzer Sabine's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Such great reminders for including this in class curriculum! This happens to be a topic for my level 3 class the next 2 weeks--next week we do entrances and the week after we do "finishing & exiting," and I hope they take it as seriously as they should!

    I've seen so many dancers (even good ones!) finish their performance and then suddenly turn into a different person slouch off the stage.

    I've also seen numerous dancers in the last couple of years (some quite well known) who finished their performance then abruptly turn and stalk away with an indifferent look on ther faces...no smile, no bow or wave, no acknowledgement of the audience, just attitude like "yeah, that's all I'm going to give you, and you're lucky I deigned to dance for you today."
    NOT A FAN of this trend.


  19. #49
    Ultimate BHUZzer zorba's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabine View Post
    I've also seen numerous dancers in the last couple of years (some quite well known) who finished their performance then abruptly turn and stalk away with an indifferent look on ther faces...no smile, no bow or wave, no acknowledgement of the audience, just attitude like "yeah, that's all I'm going to give you, and you're lucky I deigned to dance for you today."
    NOT A FAN of this trend.
    This is more of a Tribal thing I think...
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  20. #50
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Quote Originally Posted by mafadalo View Post
    ...
    This I think comes to the crux of the matter, that many teachers do not come from a performing background, so are not in the best position to teach these skills.
    Exactly. You can't teach what you don't know.
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  21. #51
    Master BHUZzer casbahdance's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Quote Originally Posted by mafadalo View Post
    This I think comes to the crux of the matter, that many teachers do not come from a performing background, so are not in the best position to teach these skills.
    This.

    It amazes me that folks will teach a performing art without any experience in performing the art.

    How does that work, exactly?

    Deborah
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    A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post. Zumarrad's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    In the world of bellydance, it can go something like this:

    Lady with no performance background of any kind wants something fun, creative, empowering, sociable, active to do. She picks BD class. She loves BD class! BD class is the best ever! Then, one of two things happens: she moves, or her teacher moves, so there is no bellydance class ANY MORE. In order to keep the BD class mojo happening, she starts to teach.

    OR she starts to feel so confident in herself that becoming just like her teacher, ie a teacher, seems to be desirable. So she starts to teach.

    Either of said dancers could have performed in a couple of class choreos, or never.
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  23. #53
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    I'm sort of sitting here chuckling to myself because someone I would place in the top 10 dancers for technique in my town is absolutely anti-makeup. She will. NOT. wear. ANY. At all. Ever. And when it was suggested she make up for a restaurant gig she said dryly, "What's makeup? Never heard of it."

    So... yeah. They do exist!

    (And no, before you ask, she is not a pro.)
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  24. #54
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    My biggest pet peeve is when a dancer falls out of character getting on and off stage. I always tell me students that as soon as they are back stage, they are in character. You can have the best dance in the world but if you walk off stage like a pedestrian, than that is what the audience will remember. First impressions and last impressions are SO important.
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  25. #55
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabelly View Post
    My biggest pet peeve is when a dancer falls out of character getting on and off stage. I always tell me students that as soon as they are back stage, they are in character. You can have the best dance in the world but if you walk off stage like a pedestrian, than that is what the audience will remember. First impressions and last impressions are SO important.
    This is a hot button issue for me, because it forces me to make a tough decision: I have filmed quite a few student haflas and professional events where this happens. I see every thing from the stomp-off, to the veil equivalent of the garden butt, to the I'm-already-complaining-to-my-friends-backstage.

    And, I have to ask myself when I edit the footage, "Do I leave it in for them to learn from, or cut it out and make them look better."

    Seriously, it causes me many minutes of ethical dilemmas in front of my computer.

    I keep the graceful exits, because they highlight talent. And, (telling some secrets here), I try to make sure everyone gets 4 seconds of applause left on film, at a minimum. So, if you cannot maintain persona that long, it's going to stay in the 4 seconds of footage. And, the longer you stay in persona, the longer I keep your footage.

    Teachers, when you coach your students, PLEASE be sure to comment on the exit, please!


  26. #56
    Established BHUZzer rachelw's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Anala,

    What if you did the graceful edit for anything that's going to be publicly distributed, uploaded, etc., but kept the raw footage to show to the students as an educational tool?
    Maybe before the next big performance, you could do a session on performance skills, entrances, exits, etc.


  27. #57
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    (adding on to my previous post, because it's not letting me edit for some reason)

    Or, could you distribute the raw footage to the dancers to have them do a self-critique? Just seeing myself on video helped me realize how much fidgeting I did on stage and I was able to self-correct a lot of things without anyone else telling me to that I needed to fix it.


  28. #58
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Quote Originally Posted by rachelw View Post
    Anala,

    What if you did the graceful edit for anything that's going to be publicly distributed, uploaded, etc., but kept the raw footage to show to the students as an educational tool?
    Maybe before the next big performance, you could do a session on performance skills, entrances, exits, etc. . . . Or, could you distribute the raw footage to the dancers to have them do a self-critique? Just seeing myself on video helped me realize how much fidgeting I did on stage and I was able to self-correct a lot of things without anyone else telling me to that I needed to fix it.
    Well, these aren't my students. (humble smile) I don't teach.

    In many cases, I don't actually own the footage, as it belongs to the group that hired me to film. So, one and only one version gets made. And, versioning is not as easy as it sounds when it comes to video creation. (Macs make it "easy" not "quick.")

    So, I often just go by the 4 seconds of applause rule, and let the audience see what it can in those 4 seconds.

    And, I pray that those who teach will teach this.



  29. #59
    Established BHUZzer rachelw's Avatar
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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Ah, I see. I think the 4-second rule is a good one in that case.


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    Re: Respecting the Stage

    Having been filmed by Anala I now have an overwhelming urge to go watch myself...

    (I try to maintain character even when I've messed up but I know I've made some...not so graceful exits before)

    This is why I try to make sure I have exit music whenever possible, because that helps with "and now the dancer exits in a dancerly fashion" mode.
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