Thread: When to "Accept" someone in your Group?

Hi Ladies! A few students in one of my teacher's classes are working on a choreography. We've been practicing for a few months (during class and outside of class). A new student joined just over a month ago, practicing the choreography just a handful of times. Now she wants to perform. And b/c of the stage and number of performers, there are now two lines instead of just one (we all wanted to be in the front).

Is it wrong to feel like she's stepping on our toes? It's been the same group of dancers performing, and now she comes in unexpectedly. I know, everyone should get a chance to perform. But she's new and seemingly inexperienced. If she'd been practicing this piece with us from the jump, that's a different story. But some of didn't even know her name until today!

Sorry to complain, and I don't want to sound territorial...but i can't help it! ..c::

Originally Posted by Malena

Hi Ladies! A few students in one of my teacher's classes are working on a choreography. We've been practicing for a few months (during class and outside of class). A new student joined just over a month ago, practicing the choreography just a handful of times. Now she wants to perform. And b/c of the stage and number of performers, there are now two lines instead of just one (we all wanted to be in the front).

Is it wrong to feel like she's stepping on our toes? It's been the same group of dancers performing, and now she comes in unexpectedly. I know, everyone should get a chance to perform. But she's new and seemingly inexperienced. If she'd been practicing this piece with us from the jump, that's a different story. But some of didn't even know her name until today!

Sorry to complain, and I don't want to sound territorial...but i can't help it! ..c::

I am not sure how to answer you on this, I can see your point but also see the new girls desire. When I first started dancing the lovely ladies I am with had all beeen dancing a year at that time ( 4 yrs for me now) ... and 2 months after I started the yearly hafla was on. I didn't want to dance and spoil it for my fellow dancers. But they absolutely insisted, so in the end I said OK, as long as I could be at the back. There were only 5 of us dancing this particular choreo, so one lady said she would join me at the back the other 3 could be in front. Well to be honest I was Sooooo nervous, but got up there all my nerves vanished when I heard the music and we all danced up a storm and had the best time. I am so grateful to my fellow students for their generosity in including me who was such a noobie. I moved to a new instructor about 2 years ago, and 3 of those ladies have since joined me. we are the best of friends and still have fun dancing together and always encourage new students to join us.

All I can say it worked for us, I don't know how you interact with this new girl, and if she in anyway makes you feel uneasy, does she fluff the choreo all the time or something? If she is managing it quite well, give her a chance, ( it sounds like you are a small group like we are so maybe opportunities don't come along that often). It can always be announced that she is brave enough to dance with you all after X amount of time. Audiences are very forgiving and applaud those who try, and those who show a generous spirit. ... well they are here for the most part. I am speaking from personal experience and also from the fact we always include beginners, but never force them, some have chosen to dance others to just watch us.
~Sagira

It sounds like this is something the teacher should be in charge of deciding or talking to you guys (away from the new student) about.

ooo - its a tuff one...your teacher should be there to help you guys thru this one... we have a rule in my troupe that 6 troupe meetings to work on a new choreo are mandatory before performing it. That is six weeks as we only meet once a week.

If this is a student troupe being directed by your teacher, it's really her call. If not, then I would talk to the new girl and let her know that in order to perform with the troupe, she needs to be heavily involved in practices for at least several months before she can perform with you guys. This will give you (the troupe) a chance to get to know her, get to see her progress, and see if she really puts forth the interest and the commitment. The idea of a troupe is to have a terrific bunch(no specific number) of dancers that share the same passion. Troupes are going to grow, unless you make it specific that your troupe is only X number of dancers and you are currently not accepting anyone else. If you are open to growing, then you must also be open to the fact that lineup formations must change and with enough choreographies...everyone will get a chance to be in the front.

The rule for my student troupe is that once we are 3 weeks into working on a choreo, the membership is closed to new members until we start another one.

How well does she know the choreography? What kind of performance is this? Have you been practicing outside of class because you've been required (or asked) or was it just something you do for fun? Is this a troupe performance or a class performance?

I ask all of this, because I've joined many belly dance communities. I haven't been in this particular situation, but even though you don't know this person well doesn't mean she shouldn't be allowed to participate. It's really difficult to join a group of close knit people; I'm currently working on that myself, and it's hard to know whether you should jump into the conversation or be quiet and wait until someone acknowledges you.

Thanks everyone for your replies! We don't want to isolate her or prevent her from dancing with us in the future. But we are apprehensive about her performing with us this soon - she just started taking classes and most of us have been dancing for years. It's definitely my teacher's call. We just don't want to have two lines now to accommodate her familiarity with the piece when we've been practicing for months. We'll probably just let our teacher know how we feel.

Originally Posted by Malena

Thanks everyone for your replies! We don't want to isolate her or prevent her from dancing with us in the future. But we are apprehensive about her performing with us this soon - she just started taking classes and most of us have been dancing for years. It's definitely my teacher's call. We just don't want to have two lines now to accommodate her familiarity with the piece when we've been practicing for months. We'll probably just let our teacher know how we feel.

I agree with everyone else that this should definitely be your teacher's call. But I am concerned that you feel that having two lines is a detriment. You never know when you will perform this piece on a small stage or in an intimate setting in the round where two lines would be necessary. Having a back line actually adds some visual depth when you place the dancers in a nice formation to frame each other. It helps the audience's eyes travel around all the dancers as well as seeing the group as a three-dimensional whole rather than just a straight line where they will tend to focus in one just one dancer and stay locked on her.

My two cents...

Souzan

seriously. they are. if she's a competent dancer and your teacher feels it's so, then what is the issue? that she's not paid her dues with your group yet? is she a hardworker? does she learn quickly?

I think you should consider where your territoriality is coming from. It's not very nice to feel like an outsider in dance groups - and it's so silly - sorry, but it's belly dance why make it something that is so life or death that you can't be inclusive?

Originally Posted by Malena

Thanks everyone for your replies! We don't want to isolate her or prevent her from dancing with us in the future. But we are apprehensive about her performing with us this soon - she just started taking classes and most of us have been dancing for years. It's definitely my teacher's call. We just don't want to have two lines now to accommodate her familiarity with the piece when we've been practicing for months. We'll probably just let our teacher know how we feel.

If there's one thing I learned from being in a troupe, it's that the group dynamics are *always* subject to change. Because people leave, new people come in. Pretty much all the time. It's great to have a group that works together consistently and knows itself well, but unless you're the one controlling membership, you'll have to learn to expect that group harmony is rare and fleeting. Just shine the best *you* can, in the place *you* occupy.

How perfectly put!

Originally Posted by Taj

If there's one thing I learned from being in a troupe, it's that the group dynamics are *always* subject to change. Because people leave, new people come in. Pretty much all the time. It's great to have a group that works together consistently and knows itself well, but unless you're the one controlling membership, you'll have to learn to expect that group harmony is rare and fleeting. Just shine the best *you* can, in the place *you* occupy.

Originally Posted by Taj

If there's one thing I learned from being in a troupe, it's that the group dynamics are *always* subject to change. Because people leave, new people come in. Pretty much all the time. It's great to have a group that works together consistently and knows itself well, but unless you're the one controlling membership, you'll have to learn to expect that group harmony is rare and fleeting. Just shine the best *you* can, in the place *you* occupy.

This is so true. Our troupe director likes to create a welcoming environment and tries to find roles for both professional level dancers and relative newbies to contribute. But it's always changing--people take time off because of babies or thesis projects. New people join. Think about the environment you want to be a part of. How did you want to be treated when you joined? How WERE you treated when you joined? If this woman left your teacher's classes and went elsewhere, what impression would you want to leave her with?

It can be frustrating when someone is new and you've been dancing the choreography forever. I completely understand. But when this happens, I try to think back to the first time I learned a choreography...and it isn't always pretty.

If there is a true quality issue here, then go to your instructor when there's still time before the performance to fix the problem.

I think, if she knows the choreography, and can perform the moves well enough that she doesn't stick out like a sore thumb, you should put aside your feelings, and welcome her. It sucks to feel like a group is excluding you. And, even though this person may want to perform on her own account, it is really the director who is ultimately responsible for deciding whether she is ready or not. Sometimes women in groups feel very resentful of other dancers coming in, and getting everything right up front that they had to work longer for. Is this the case? I know I have seen cases where what looked like preferential treatment, was occuring. Or times, when a lot of people were thinking that a person was doing some major butt kissing (goddess worship!) :) to get to the front of the line so quickly. This girl may be a really cool person, who you will want to be friends with in the future, and your animosity may sabotage the performance more than anything, so I would just try to be accepting, and be positive about it. From what I have seen, sometimes a director will make girls wait longer to perform when she has a solid core of regular dancers, and when there is a dance student drought, she will move people up much more quickly.

In case of doubt, being gracious and helpful is a good thing, it doesn't take away from any previous practice, fellowship and skills of those who have worked hard on the choreography. Of course, if the new dancer isn't quite up to the challenge, doesn't practice, or is somebody who's only interested in performing, things are a bit different. But, if there is a good reason that she has joined so late in the game, it's good karma to welcome her, even if it doesn't feel like the most fun thing to do.

I'm glad we've got this discussion going - it's great to get so many perspectives on the issue :)

I think having lines is great (especially for a staged performance). I just don't think we should change the line-up b/c one person decided to perform a few days before showtime. It's our teachers call, and by no means is anyone going to sabotage this person (I'm bothered by the insinuation). I've gotten the cold-shoulder whenever I'm the newbie, so I know what that's like (frankly, I expect it and just deal). Eventually the ice melts.

But hey - I needed to vent! I've never been in this situation before - whenever the dynamics changed, the person had always been practicing/rehearsing for a while. It's the "paying dues" aspect (or lack thereof) that bothers me. Maybe it is like "high school." But I'm just putting it out there to get different POVs.

And Nisreen - it's "our" group :)

Your teacher would not make changes last minute unless she thought
a) the student was ready for it &
b) that YOU guys were savvy enough to run with those changes

I would consider it a compliment to you guys' abilities that she felt you could make a switch last minute.

As for time dancing, try not to feel too strange about how long you guys have been dancing versus how long she has. Some people are really quick to pick up dance and choreography (I am one of those people--asked to join troupes in the first year of dancing kind of fast). It is no reflection on you, and takes nothing away from anyone. And you are gaining another dancer to light up your stage--there is power in numbers!

Lastly, I agree that all dancers in one line is *yawn*! I would have suggested you change that up anyway. Souzan put it best: staggered lines allows the audience eye to run across the group--it creates a texture to your group. One line, you tend to focus on one dancer only, and there is a sort of disconnect there--instead of a gentle stagger, there is a WALL OF DANCERS. I think straight up lines of dancers should be reserved as an accent to a dance choreography. For instance, when we choreograph, if there is a really powerful "in your face" part of the music, we might line up together and do some tightly synchronized intricate movement, or maybe some big chunky movements that say "RAWR". Then we split back out again as a sort of denoument. We also use lines for powerful endings and bows, But for an entire dance...? I think the addition of this student, and two lines, has improved things for you!

I am part of this group as well. I would have absolutely no problem in accepting the newbie into the group had she actually practiced the dance with us. She has only seen this dance maybe 2-3 times which I feel is not a sufficient amount of time to take in all the different aspects of the dance. I have no animosity towards her. I will welcome anyone into the group if they are willing to practice and have a desire to dance. I do see that she has a desire to dance but she has not made an effort to practice this choreography at all. If she truly wants to perform and practice with us then I would be happy to accept her into the group for the next performance.

Has anyone suggested/informed her that you all have practiced outside of class? It might seem glaringly obvious that one practices out of class, but hey, some people don't see it as such.

Not to play devil's advocate, but I still haven't read that she can't perform the dance well. It still seems to me, an outsider looking in, that it's more of a territorial thing and because you guys have invested a lot more time you don't feel like she should be able to just jump in. I can relate, but really if your teacher doesn't have an issue with it then why should anyone else?

I think we sometimes make things hard just because of how we choose to view them. You could, rather, look at it with excitment and really be thrilled that someone is so excited about being a part of you group. And think of the flipside and how you would feel if you just wanted to perform and a group of people were having a dicussion about you and not wanting to include you. ..c::

Either way, with or without this girl in the group, I'm sure the performance will be great!

Since it does appear that this new dancer is not well rehersed enough to perform, it seems to me that the issue is really more with your teacher. Why is she allowing someone to join the performance who doesn't know the choreo well? I would definately discuss your concerns with her, especially since you indicated she's been a bit more of a taskmaster in the past.

I sorta get the territorial vibe as well but I think it's more because these ladies have been working hard building towards something and now someone else has come in that doesn't know the choreography as well and might jeopardize the hard work by screwing up the dance. I don't see a problem in that at all.

I think that you really need to speak with your teacher and if you teacher is bent on making that person perform the piece you have the option to either voice your concerns to her or approach the new person and let them know you practice extra. Kudos, btw, for the extra practice.

Having danced with numerous troupes, both student and professional, no matter how good you are, or how good you think you are, you need time to work within the group and practice time with them more than a few short weeks to really make it gel. I think your concerns are valid, you just need to speak directly to the source. That's the only way you can truly get answers.

Originally Posted by TribalDancer

Your teacher would not make changes last minute unless she thought
a) the student was ready for it &
b) that YOU guys were savvy enough to run with those changes

But TribalDancer, you are assuming that 1) the teacher has high standards for her performing group, and 2) that she is not afraid to say "no" rather than do the easiest thing which would be let the new girl dance before she's ready. I have known of and seen many teachers who can't make the tough calls like pulling someone from a performance because they miss a required performance, or adding someone at the last minute who isn't ready.

While I totally agree that it is the teacher's call, from what I hear I don't think very highly of the teacher's decision in this matter. It is not fair for her students who have put the time into making the dance look good to have the performance quality go down because of one unprepared person.

That being said, I think that students also get to make decisions: they get to decide whether to be members of the performing group or not. If you don't like the way the performing group is directed, then withdraw from the group, because your dissatisfaction will only increase.

Sedonia

hmmmm, i've found this thread interesting for a number of reasons, and may present an unpopular opinion, purely out of pragmatism, AND my own experience.

yes, troupe dynamics change, yes, if someone demonstrates ability, they should be let in, yes, one should avoid shutting people out.....but with all due respect, performing is NOT an entitlement..........now this is only my opinion, but i've seen it shared by many, and it has caused dissent, and issues, when a baby dancer is allowed to perform too soon............just because she wants to.....

tho territoriality can be an issue in many troupes, and honestly should be avoided when a new face that can add to the dynamic, troupe performances, especially if it's demonstrating a certain level, or proficiency where the members need to be in sync, an new dancer, who hasn't been practicing with them for any length of time, and adversely affect not only the morale, but the visual impact on the audience.............

like all above, i agree, bring it to the attention of the teacher/director, it's initially their call, but if there are concerns of this new person's ability, they need to know what the issues are......

if the newbie is highly proficient and catches on quickly, maybe have her rehearse with you all, wait for another, future performance to bring her in if she does well, and maybe set aside separate practice sessions with troupe members out of regular rehearsal...........this has a two-fold purpose.......everyone gets to know each other, AND , you can see just how dedicated she is..............it's all fun and glamour, until you have to WORK......if she misses one rehearsal, or one practice, she can't perform...period............she doesn't have the luxury to miss any coming in so late,

i know this sounds harsh, and i'm sorry............but if we want to promote a graceful, elegant, visual art, proficiency is huge, and if a newbie isn't up to the challenge, she has to wait until she IS proficient, and the respective teachers, and future troupemates can help her get there.........

When it is your troupe, it'll be your call, but while it is a troupe under the leadership of a teacher sometimes things will be out of ya'll's control.

When it comes to a new person entering the group, even if you may not feel a new person is ready, learning how to put issues of territory aside and learning how to help a weaker member learn/cram so she is at a level that you feel she needs to be is a troupe skill that is INVALUABLE.

In the future members will come and go, people will get sick and you'll need to learn how to compensate, former troupemates might get injuries and need to cram for the time they missed...putting aside your territory issues, even if you think they are in the best interest of the group, will help you better the group.

Hey Malena,
I also think the title of the original message said a lot about how you feel. It wasn't "what to do when the teacher invites an unqualified dancer to perform with the troupe?" but instead "when to 'Accept' someone in your Group"

It still feels like it has less to do with the gal and her qualifications, and more to do with you think you all earned your stripes and she has to before you will accept her. As someone said, you have alluded to her short time with you, but not a word about whether she can dance well enough or not. How are you coming along in this thought process?

Originally Posted by TribalDancer

Hey Malena,
I also think the title of the original message said a lot about how you feel. It wasn't "what to do when the teacher invites an unqualified dancer to perform with the troupe?" but instead "when to 'Accept' someone in your Group"

It still feels like it has less to do with the gal and her qualifications, and more to do with you think you all earned your stripes and she has to before you will accept her. As someone said, you have alluded to her short time with you, but not a word about whether she can dance well enough or not. How are you coming along in this thought process?

It does not have to do with her earning her stripes. I am very sorry to say but the newbie just does not know the dance. The show is tomorrow and she still does not know a very large chunk of it. I do not think that it is fair to us to have to dance with someone that is clearly not ready and who has not shown a desire to learn the choreography.

From an outsider perspective (not knowing any parties involved in this), the way the original post appeared to me was that it was about an outsider vs. her being unskilled.

If she doesn't know the dance, I don't believe that it is fair for her to be allowed to participate.

Thanks again everyone for your input! After rehearsal, it was clear the newbie could have used more practice. Even though she didn't know a good 1-2 minutes of the song, she didn't take us up on our offer for extra practice. But no worries - I'm sure the performance will go well! The "group" is starting to function more as a troupe (troupe costumes, extra practice, doing our own choreographies perhaps). We'll definitely talk to our teacher about how much prep each participant needs (whether part of the troupe or not) before performing another choreography.

Originally Posted by indigostars

From an outsider perspective (not knowing any parties involved in this), the way the original post appeared to me was that it was about an outsider vs. her being unskilled.

If she doesn't know the dance, I don't believe that it is fair for her to be allowed to participate.

Totally, indigostars. I would have talked to the teacher right away, and had no qualms about it, if this were the issue. And it sounds like it still is.

Good luck with the performance tonight! Next time, TALK to your teacher. As a teacher I can tell you, I am honored when students take the time to share their thoughts, whether they are positive or constructively critical. Many teachers recognize their responsibility is to their students, not their egoes, and will be open to what you have to say if you present it as clearly and maturely as possible.