Thread: Going Tribal -- how???

I'm so excited! There are about 5 of us dancers here locally who have decided we'd like to explore the group improv aspect of Tribal. We have the Gypsy Caravan videos 1-4, and we like those movements. (We've all been doing folk dance and Am Cab (or trying Egyptian) up to this point, just so you know where we're coming from.)

So we know some movements and how they're done in Tribal posture. And we're all excited about the next step ... which is what, exactly?

How do we go from "here's a bunch of steps we know" to actually doing group improv? I copied down some advice on cuing from a previous Bhuz thread, but now I can't find it. (of course)

The option to study with a GC style instructor is a possibility, but not for a while anyway. We're not planning on performing -- we're really just looking to do this for fun and for our own amusement, since we already do enough performing other dances. If our goals change, we'll definitely find a teacher, but for now, what's the best way to go about learning to do group improv?

Thanks!!

I'd say you all should split the cost of Fat Chance's DVDs. They have some great instructional DVDs that focus on the different aspects of what makes up tribal style:
FatChanceBellyDance: Videos

Hm, I assume that "Just do it!" is not quite what you're looking for ;-)

I found it's a good idea to first be clear about formations (I studied Fat Chance Volume 6), and about what transitions make sense (I studied Fat Chance Volume 5). At least in the FCBD world, cues are relatively subtle, and I'd call them more common sense body language with which the lead dancer communicates an intention of what to do next. Once I had the hang of that, everything else is a lot of common sense reasoning. I am afraid that this doesn't help too much, eh?

Maybe starting with a formation and two or three moves from the practice part of the tapes you're using is a good idea. Another alternative is that each dancer starts with a piece of music, and a string of moves that she leads for - if you have a sequence of moves prepared to lead to a piece of music you know, the idea of cueing is a lot more natural, and you avoid the "Man, I am doing this move forever, what could I do next?" and the half-heartedly doing something at a random moment (i.e. when there's no reasonable reason to do that in the musical phrasing).

And, I found that the ATS and for FCBD-style the Fat Chance tribes on tribe.net are incredibly useful.

Sorry.. plug coming....

Since you're in Illinois, consider coming to Tribal Revolution in Chicago June 20-22 where we'll have Paulette live and in person teaching workshops and performing. She's a fabulous instructor and a wonderful lady who will give you some time to chat if you want. The website only has basics right now but should have more details and registration dates after the first of the year. Tribal Revolution

If you want something more intensive, Paulette will be teaching her Collective Soul certification in Milwaukee the three days after Tribal Revolution, hosted by Rakhshanda. The Rakh ladies aren't on Bhuz, but I can put you in touch with them if you want.

hi Aziyade,
I found FCBD video "Improv & Choreography" useful & enlightening... but also took a group improv workshop w/Kajira so I think the actual experience was very helpful too, so it wasn't just intellectual.
But unless you are going to follow someone else's format really closely (where all the "what if's" have already been answered), expect to spend a LOT of time figuring out what happens when you do such-and-such!

If you can make it to Chicago, I'd say Mihri's suggestion of attending a live workshop with Paulette would be brilliant. But if you don't want to wait 6 months...

You might consider trying Kajira's IAMED videos. I've only seen the first one, haven't seen the second, but I can tell you that it teaches a combination, then shows you how to cue it, then gives you a drill in which you can follow Kajira and her troupe in practicing the move and its cueing. There's a full-length review on my web site at Belly Dancing: Shira's Reviews of Instructional Videos, Alphabetical List . I realize that Kajira's step combinations are different from Paulette's, but I think her video structure will give you a great foundation for learning the generic skills of cueing and following.

Cool! I might try to make it to Chicago -- depends upon what else is going on then.

I've got Khajira's videos (haven't watched them in ages though) and Fat Chance's Cuing video, but I didn't quite "get" that. Someone once told me just to make up my own cues. You think that would work for this terribly informal group?

Thanks all!!!

I don't think you have to make up your own cues, although it looks like that at the beginning. The cue is really most of the time nothing more than common sense: The lead dancer goes into the next move with INTENTION, and lets that intention show before she does the move. If you count a 4-beat rhythm, you do the cue on the "and" after the 4, which is hard to put into practice at first for many of us (I feel I can speak with authority here ;-) ). You may change arm position, gaze, body direction, go up and down vertically, go from relevee to flat footed - whatever makes sense. E.g., before a level change, one typically (as I learned), one does a bit of a lift before going down. Also, some things you don't often: going from an Arabic to an Egyptian is rarely done, because it is hard to cue (although the change from relevee to flat is pretty decisive), and not very interesting for an audience either because the moves have very similar shapes and lines, and one should do transitions that change the visual in a pleasing way. You just do what makes sense.

When I asked Carolena about all those nitty gritty details, she said "Use your common sense."

I second the Kajira DVDs but do get to a really good instructor or get one to come to you. We originally learnt for a teacher who like us had just watched GC videos and er..when we eventaully got a good UK ATS ( Domba trained) teacher to come to us...er...what was that we were doing...er Tribal..er.nooo!!!!
Now we have been to workshops again with Lindsey, with Wendy Marlett ( ex FCBD), Diedre also qualified ATS instructor and Paulette rees Denis..we are dancing tribal!!!!
We had an act at our last hafla were it was labelled tribal and yes well...flowers on the head and woolly belt do not (sadly)a tribal routine make.

Originally Posted by aziyade

I've got Khajira's videos (haven't watched them in ages though) and Fat Chance's Cuing video, but I didn't quite "get" that. Someone once told me just to make up my own cues. You think that would work for this terribly informal group?

Another thought - have you considered pooling your money and hiring someone like Stephanie Barto from Chicago (who has trained with FatChance) to come to Indiana and do a private lesson for your group?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Another thought - have you considered pooling your money and hiring someone like Stephanie Barto from Chicago (who has trained with FatChance) to come to Indiana and do a private lesson for your group?

Not to self-plug, but I'm certified in Kajira Djoumahna's Blacksheep format for ATS, as are Jatare and Neta of Hipnotic and Karen of Gypsy Queens. I can't speak for the others, but I love to travel and teach!!

Stephanie was my first ATS teacher though and I have to give her props as well... especially for bringing ATS to the Midwest.

Originally Posted by steffib

I don't think you have to make up your own cues, although it looks like that at the beginning. The cue is really most of the time nothing more than common sense: The lead dancer goes into the next move with INTENTION, and lets that intention show before she does the move. If you count a 4-beat rhythm, you do the cue on the "and" after the 4, which is hard to put into practice at first for many of us (I feel I can speak with authority here ;-) ). You may change arm position, gaze, body direction, go up and down vertically, go from relevee to flat footed - whatever makes sense.

I have to agree with that! When I was starting off, I was trying to figure what syle I wanted to study. i spent a lot of time looking up ATS b/c the group aspect intrigued me. So, while I'm no expert I can say that the "cuing" is often times a raise of the hand to alert your troupemates that a change is about to happen. If I were to practice with a group of girls, I'd start off with doing basics: hip circles followed by mayas followed by snake arms. Try different visual cues - lower the arms as you move into mayas, for example. Watch tribal performances for their cues - you can see them in FCBD. Once you get the idea of following the lead dancer move between basic steps you can work on developing combos that everyone will know. Then work on adding a string of one or two together, etc. Don't start with a whole song, start at the bottom and work up to it! Sorry if this is common sense/what you guys are already doing but I'm just explaining how I'd approach it

Originally Posted by steffib

I don't think you have to make up your own cues, although it looks like that at the beginning. The cue is really most of the time nothing more than common sense: The lead dancer goes into the next move with INTENTION, and lets that intention show before she does the move. If you count a 4-beat rhythm, you do the cue on the "and" after the 4, which is hard to put into practice at first for many of us (I feel I can speak with authority here ;-) ). You may change arm position, gaze, body direction, go up and down vertically, go from relevee to flat footed - whatever makes sense. E.g., before a level change, one typically (as I learned), one does a bit of a lift before going down. Also, some things you don't often: going from an Arabic to an Egyptian is rarely done, because it is hard to cue (although the change from relevee to flat is pretty decisive), and not very interesting for an audience either because the moves have very similar shapes and lines, and one should do transitions that change the visual in a pleasing way. You just do what makes sense.

When I asked Carolena about all those nitty gritty details, she said "Use your common sense."

Steffi, the question that comes to mind for me as I read this thread is this: if you specifically want to learn how to dance group improv with people who embrace the FatChance set of combinations (or Gypsy Caravan) the next time you go to an SCA event or anywhere else that dancers gather, how do you know what cues to watch for? It might be common sense if you already know how to do it, but how does someone who doesn't have access to a teacher in that style figure it out?

I'd say that the common sense pretty much leads to the same cues when one relies on the FCBD, yes. When one follows FCBD (with the exception of the most recent addition, the Volume 7 DVD with more intricate combinations that rely on more codified cues), there are really no hidden, secret cues.

Quite often, cues are simply starting to do the move, at the right moment. If the followers listen to the music, they know when a transition can be expected, and you see the leader's intention in body language to do the next move, rather than a disconnected move that one has to catch or not that signals a transition. That probably sounds terribly vague and a bit esoterical.

I haven't learned ATS from a teacher - I watched the tapes, and that was enough to figure most things out. When I managed to take a live workshop with Carolena after a while, I sat there very happy that with the exception of minor details, I had been right on track. And, where I found differences, most of the time, I hadn't paid enough attention.

Granted, without practicing with others and getting feedback on one's mistakes (which is a big issue, I find), one may not accomplish the perfection of FCBD on stage - these guys are just really, really good and have worked with each other for years.

Now, I'd assume that this all depends on what clicks with a person. I watched Carlona's instructionals - and I connect to her teaching style, personality and reasoning - my husband even joked about me, commenting that he can see why I like her. The way she explains things makes a lot of sense to me. Probably not everybody shares that sentiment. On the other hand, I do not connect to Kajira's teaching. I watched her tapes once (instantly sold them), and grew increasingly impatient with the fairly intricate system of signals. Her style does not resonate with me. Again, probably not everybody shares that sentiment. There's no one right method for everybody, and how much one find's a teachers method easy depends on how well one is tuned into their ways.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Steffi, the question that comes to mind for me as I read this thread is this: if you specifically want to learn how to dance group improv with people who embrace the FatChance set of combinations (or Gypsy Caravan) the next time you go to an SCA event or anywhere else that dancers gather, how do you know what cues to watch for? It might be common sense if you already know how to do it, but how does someone who doesn't have access to a teacher in that style figure it out?

I'm going to jump in here too. ..g.:

from the classes I've taken in tribal style (Props to Mihri, she's an awesome teacher) at Pennsic the cues are slight "imperfections" in the movement. For example, a level change can be indicated with a slight rise up, or by "misaligning" the hands in a temple hands position. A turn can be a dip in the shoulder that you will be turning over in a movement that does not have one.

From what I remember, the cue movement is usually small enough that the audience won't catch it unless they *know* to look for it, so I can see why watching a video on cueing might be frustrating if you aren't sure what you're looking for.

For video learning, I would think that *careful* and repetitive observation would be key, of course, you'd also have to *know* what the unaltered movement looked like too, to see the change.

I babble when I'm hungry. ..l;, Hope it helped
Adrienne

Adrienne, you have learned well! (thanks for the props btw..g.:)

Basically, what the others have said about cueing is good, but I think Adrienne put it best when she said it's an "imperfection" of a basic move. Most cues are given with hand and arm positions and if done well, just look to the audience like movement that's a part of the dance... not like a cue. There are other cues of course, like level changes, head turns, changing the angle of the body, etc, and they, like arm cues are meant to enhance and create a seamlessness in the dance while allowing the lead dancer to communicate with the rest of the group.

As for the question of uniformity of cueing (I think Shira brought it up) and movment, it's a "yes and no" situation. I think it's important when learning someone else's ATS system, be it FCBD, GC, or BSBD format, to keep the cues consistent. That way, if you *do* get to party with other ATS dancers, there's some common language being spoken. Both Paulette and Kajira's formats keep the basic elements of the original FCBD style, simply adding to or enhancing it. My troupe is doing this as well, having created several original combinations and some variations on improv transitions and formations. There are many ATS troupes out there putting their own twist on improv and making it their own while still keeping the core basics the same as what just about everyone else does.

I think what makes jamming with dancers you don't know (whose format or moves you may not be as familiar with) successful is the notion that cues are these "imperfections" in the basic moves. The GP may not see cues, but other ATS dancers will. I once jammed with members from 2 different troupes, but we were able to stay somewhat together because we could all recognize cues. If it was a basic cue to a universal move out of the original FCBD format, we were all spot on. If it was a troupe's own combo we could, at the very least, recognize that a cue was happening (because of the change from the normal way of doing the move) and the follow along as best we could. For the most part it worked out and we were able to jam together without anyone getting frustrated, run over, or injured (fast paddle turns can be deadly if not exercised with caution!). It was probably one of my best experiences with true improv with practical strangers. One of the lovely things about improv is that it teaches you to follow very well, so if you see an unfamiliar cue, you can still recognize it as a cue and make yourself alert to what the leader is doing next.

I hope this all made sense and doesn't just sound like the ramblings of a tribal girl. I just got up and haven't made breakfast or coffee yet.,s::

This is cool. Thanks for the tips!! I actually hate to bring up pooling money to get an instructor since we only JUST agreed to play with this, and I don't want anyone backing out. Between our regular instruction and the folk dance workshops we go to, we spend a LOT of money on dance training -- which is fine, but I hate to ask them to spend more, when they're dropping so much already on the Suhaila and Hadia workshops.

(As of yet, this hasn't happened, but I'm hoping we'll start actually WORKING the Tribal thing now that the holidays are over. It doesn't help that we all came back from vacations with new hobbies/obsessions to distract us (like poi, bagpipes, and nalbinding.)