Thread: Sharing your choreographies?

Hi all,

I am hoping to hear your thoughts on this subject. I have always said that when I create a choreography for classes that I am willing to share it. When I teach it, up until now I have given no restrictions on it's use. I have felt that I wanted to be open but lately I have been struggling a bit with my feelings over a particular choreography that I put much time, trial and error (read sweat and tears) into. I worry that it is a slippery slope to "no one can use without permission blah blah" and I don't want to go that route, given that so many people have been so generous with me. I want to pass that good karma around so I am really struggling with feeling that I want to keep this particular baby as my own. I am teaching it though so I know it is out of the bag already. I think I will not restrict it but want to hear others experiences with this issue. Thanks for any and all input!

Alana
It's totally up to you as the artist to decide if you want to share your work. I see no reason why you shouldn't limit some choreographies (read: hold for your own personal use) and give free reign on others. It's your hard work and if you want to keep it just for yourself, you have every right to!

Personally, I do not allow others to perform my choreographies without my permission. But I also would not presume to perform other people's choreographies w/o permission either--even if it was taught in a workshop or class. Some teachers give blanket permission that it's ok to perform their choreographies, but then I would at the very least give them credit. It's just a matter of respect.

Just my .02!

Alana, I totally agree with Aazura!!!

I know of a teacher who had a troupe who requested that the troupe members not share the choreographies. This teacher worked really hard on choreographing them. I think once the troupe disbanded one of the members decided to teach the choreography. This teacher went to a hafli and saw one of her choreographies being performed without her permission. She was shocked to say the least and also the performance was a watered down version of what she choreographed!!! ,m::

Also if everyone is doing the same choreographed piece at every local hafli, show, performance, etc., it sorta takes the specialness (I know it's not a word) of that piece of choreography.

I understand totally about the blood, sweat and tears (many tears) putting a real artistc piece together. That's also why I don't allow people to video tape my performances and other teachers don't allow it too. It's so much work, so many hours and this is your baby sorta speak.

Hi Aazura and Akashablue,

Thanks for your response. Up until now I have given blanket permission so I guess that is what I am struggling with personally. How do you backtrack? The other issue is the idea of allowing some use of it but limiting it for others. I have had instructors who were very generous in allowing me to perform their choreos with my changes and were happy to allow this, and always with credit given though often it was not explicitly asked for. I just do. I feel better giving credit. That said, I do not tend to dance choreos anymore (have not for many years) but remember as a baby dancer how I appreciated the openess with which certain instructors offered their works.

For many reasons, this has me struggling.

Also, as instructors who share their choreos...do you ever have them performed by people who are competition in your community? If so, what were your thoughts, how did you deal with this? I am not a hugely competetive person but this must be an issue for some? if so, what limits do you set? I am interested in all angles because as I said, I am trying to define how I want to share and see my works presented and whether or not I should change my current policy on fair use. Just would like to hear all sides of the issue.

Yes, Akashablue...choreographies that you work so hard to create are like your babies in a way. You remember the steps along the way to creating them...the frustration and hard work and then the thrill when what you created becomes something you are so proud of.

But when to let go??

I understand you want to give back--to both your students and the community. I think that's very generous of you and I don't mean to take away from that generous spirit at all. But because you are offering a gift (your art, your work, your babies), you shouldn't feel bad if you want to only give your gift *some* of the time. If this one choreography feels special to you, then by all means keep it special!

If you're worried about people feeling upset that you don't want to share this choreography, try explaining it to them in a gentle way: "Normally, I am happy to share my work. But this choreography feels different to me and I'd like to keep it to myself for a bit. Please don't perform it without my permission." I'm sure your students will understand.

I'm just saying all this because you seem to be asking permission NOT to share. You have been very giving in the past--and I'm sure everyone appreciates your generous spirit--but definitely take care of yourself as well. It's ok to say No sometimes. (a lesson I'm trying to learn myself...)

Originally Posted by akashablue

I know of a teacher who had a troupe who requested that the troupe members not share the choreographies. This teacher worked really hard on choreographing them. I think once the troupe disbanded one of the members decided to teach the choreography. This teacher went to a hafli and saw one of her choreographies being performed without her permission. She was shocked to say the least and also the performance was a watered down version of what she choreographed!!! ,m::

Also if everyone is doing the same choreographed piece at every local hafli, show, performance, etc., it sorta takes the specialness (I know it's not a word) of that piece of choreography.

Similar stuff happens in my community, except that it's the big-name teachers' workshop choreos that get taught to troupes and then performed. I know one big name that expressly forbids such, but it happens anyway.

You can't control what other people do with your artistic/intellectual property. For myself, I probably wouldn't teach something I was ambivalent about letting go of. You can always change your mind later, but once you've taught it, it's pretty much out there for anyone to grab.

Originally Posted by Uulady

Yes, Akashablue...choreographies that you work so hard to create are like your babies in a way. You remember the steps along the way to creating them...the frustration and hard work and then the thrill when what you created becomes something you are so proud of.

But when to let go??

..l;, Good question! I've never thought of that....hmmm....When you get sick of them???

Sorry if I'm answering a redundent question ..g.:

I usually tell my classes any choreography I teach in a class setting is theirs to perform at will. However, I also emphasize that I expect them not to perform it without giving choreography credit (where possible) and that if they want to do it with a group, it must be with one of our troupes or they must get special permission from me to teach it to others.

That said, I have one student who teaches in another county. I've given her permission to teach some of my choreographies in her classes (and yes, she always asks first). In the beginning, the idea was that her group, which often performs at our troupe events, could then dance with us -- however I've found she always tweaks the choreo just enough that we can't dance together...c:: I've since started not granting permission unless I'm ready to retire the piece from our troupe's list of active dances.

So far, that's working well.

Originally Posted by Taj

You can't control what other people do with your artistic/intellectual property. For myself, I probably wouldn't teach something I was ambivalent about letting go of. You can always change your mind later, but once you've taught it, it's pretty much out there for anyone to grab.

Taj, I also agree with you! If I'm going to kick myself for letting go, I just won't do it and I don't teach. If I was to teach, that's what I would do.

Alana, if you allow some people to perform your choreography and not others, it could be a sticky situation for you which I wouldn't want you to have to deal being in a belly dance community.

I do understand that you want to give back which is all well and good. But to quote Aazura "...because you are offering a gift (your art, your work, your babies), you shouldn't feel bad if you want to only give your gift *some* of the time. If this one choreography feels special to you, then by all means keep it special."

I hardly ever choreograph. But when I do, I usually create 2 different choreographies for each piece of music. If I teach one to either students or fellow dancers...I am basically "giving" them the choreography. I have seen many a choreo stolen (for lack of a better word) from the creator, only to be performed by another "professional" dancer later on. I use the term "professional' loosely since a TRUE professional would never steal another dancers choreo. When I decide to perform my secondary choreography (like at a hafla, event, whatever...) I won't allow any video taping of my performance. That way..I don't end up seeing all of my time and hard work being performed (especially for profit) by someone else, somewhere else. If that person or persons want to try and imitate me...they can try to do it from memory..not DVD!

Originally Posted by Amaryllis

I hardly ever choreograph. But when I do, I usually create 2 different choreographies for each piece of music. If I teach one to either students or fellow dancers...I am basically "giving" them the choreography. I have seen many a choreo stolen (for lack of a better word) from the creator, only to be performed by another "professional" dancer later on. I use the term "professional' loosely since a TRUE professional would never steal another dancers choreo. When I decide to perform my secondary choreography (like at a hafla, event, whatever...) I won't allow any video taping of my performance. That way..I don't end up seeing all of my time and hard work being performed (especially for profit) by someone else, somewhere else. If that person or persons want to try and imitate me...they can try to do it from memory..not DVD!

But then you have no record of your own performances, and twenty years from now you may come to regret that no video policy. For me, having that record of myself to enjoy with the grandkids is more important than whether or not someone may come along and yoink my choreography.

I meant no one else can video tape me ...I always video tape myself...usually my husband or a good friend does it for me whenever I am going to do a special performance...but folks/dancers at a hafla or show....No . And if it's announced before hand by the MC...no one has a problem with it...g.:

Here is my policy - I hope it helps! :)

Choreography In Class/Workshops:
If I teach a choreography in class the student is granted performing rights to that choreography. They can dance it anywhere they like and I ask to be credited whenever possible. They do not have teaching license for the choreography. [Perform: Yes; Teach: No]

Choreography in Troupe:
If I teach a choreography to my troupe, they only have rights to perform that choreography as part of officially sanction troupe gigs. They can not perform it outside of the troupe. They do not have teaching license for the choreography. [Perform: Only with Official Troupe; Teach: No]

Commissioned Choreography:
If I am commissioned to create a choreography for a troupe or individual dancer, then that dancer/group receives all performance and teaching rights to the choreography. I give up all teaching and performing license to that particular choreography. [Perform: Yes; Teach: Yes]

Retired Choreography:
If I am no longer teaching or performing a choreography, then I will often post it on my website as free use. I request choreography credit when teaching or performing the choreography. These are fully open use. [Perform: Yes; Teach: Yes]

The choreographies I teach in class and at workshops I don't care if other people perform them.Its nice if they give me credit but not essential-once gone into the public domain especially if people have come to a workshop where the choreography is part of the deal, I don't see how you can stop people performing it,watering it down putting there own interpretation on it etc.However the dances i choreograph for me-stay mine at least until I'm sure I don't want to perform them anymore only then might I teach them but then they are really me and probably would not work for anyone else.

Originally Posted by mahsati

Here is my policy - I hope it helps! :)

Choreography In Class/Workshops:
If I teach a choreography in class the student is granted performing rights to that choreography. They can dance it anywhere they like and I ask to be credited whenever possible. They do not have teaching license for the choreography. [Perform: Yes; Teach: No]

Choreography in Troupe:
If I teach a choreography to my troupe, they only have rights to perform that choreography as part of officially sanction troupe gigs. They can not perform it outside of the troupe. They do not have teaching license for the choreography. [Perform: Only with Official Troupe; Teach: No]

Commissioned Choreography:
If I am commissioned to create a choreography for a troupe or individual dancer, then that dancer/group receives all performance and teaching rights to the choreography. I give up all teaching and performing license to that particular choreography. [Perform: Yes; Teach: Yes]

Retired Choreography:
If I am no longer teaching or performing a choreography, then I will often post it on my website as free use. I request choreography credit when teaching or performing the choreography. These are fully open use. [Perform: Yes; Teach: Yes]

I think those are great policies, Mahsati. Simple, clear, logical -- and much more concise than what I was about to post, which essentially said the same thing.

Latifa

Choreography is our most valuable piece of work!!! When I teach I tell my students that the choreography they are learning they can perform at our recitals/shows but if they want to perform by themselves I expect that they at least ask my permission and so they can peform...
Video tape is so important!!! like Tamra Henna said!

But honestly we are on YOUTUBE times now and I get tired of seen people using pieces of performances/choreography found there, its SAD, and hard to control. The only thing WE instructors can do is educate our students about it.

I also have a file with all my choreography.
I do not control the ones I made for a dancer on a private class, and I do allow people to use my choreography on workshops I teach, but I try to teach more techinque on workshops, because the problem of using choreography starts when a studend comes and says that she/he learned that dance years ago at a workshop, and "changed it" to look better, but I always sai this:
whatever it is not fully your creation, it is not yours. Changing a choregraphy is called "adapting". In this case the BASE choreography should still be credited. This is true in any artistic media, or academic environment.
Guys I take this SO serious, sometimes to serious but we gt defend our work!

This is what I print at the top of each choreography I teach, whether it's a class or a workshop:

This choreography is for Latifa’s students only. If you perform this work, please give Latifa choreographic credit. If you adapt the dance, you may say that if was based on or adapted from choreography by Latifa. Thank you for supporting the art of dance.

Latifa

I make a distinction between choreography that I create to perform myself and choreography that I create for purposes of classroom use.

I never teach choreography to anyone that I want to keep for my personal use as a performer.

If I create something for classroom use, my students are welcome to perform it, modify it, make it their own. But NOT to teach it to others. I'd like to be credited if they are performing in an environment where crediting is possible, but I realize that's not always the case. If they use it unchanged, then I'd like the credit to say the choreography is by me. If they modify it to suit their personal style, I'd like the credit to say it was "inspired by", "adapted from", or "based on" choreography by me.

If I teach a choreography in a workshop (as opposed to a weekly class), I figure I've sent it out there to the universe, and the best I can hope for is that people will credit me when they use it. But then, when I teach workshops I usually don't teach an intact choreo. Instead, I teach combinations that build on each other. And my favorite workshop to teach is one that leads the attendees in creating their own choreography on the fly, in which case they can use it however they see fit afterward!

Originally Posted by Taj

You can't control what other people do with your artistic/intellectual property. For myself, I probably wouldn't teach something I was ambivalent about letting go of. You can always change your mind later, but once you've taught it, it's pretty much out there for anyone to grab.

I agree, Taj. If you let it go, it's out there. Keep it to yourself until you're ready to move on to something new.

If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and if someone takes your idea it just means it means they can't come up with one of their own. To steal a creative idea it means the thief is lazy and small. Sad, really. And the intellectual property debate is about making money because there is no way to put that kind of argument around art.

Hey, this is funny and sad at the same time: Sometimes I create choreographies for other teachers who don't like to choreograph. They pay for them. Anyway, it's happened that I'm watching some workshop show video and I hear a song come on and I say "I choreographed a dance to that song once" then I slowly realize that it MY choreography but so altered by the "telephone" game process that even I didn't know.

I agree, once you put something out there, it really is out there. I guess I have been wondering why I am feeling more protective over this piece than I have over any before. Okay, here's a question, did anyone ever have a change of heart over a piece that you taught and then felt protective? Like if you could do it over, you would not have taught it? If so, what were your reasons?

The funny thing is that this is not a choreography I would perform again in the same way so why should I care? Strange huh? I'm trying to figure out why I seem to be hesitant with this.

I started off learning choreographies in class and then thinking it was wrong to perform them (unoriginal, plus the permission issue), I learn mainly from Egyptian teachers, who I have now learned *love* to see their choreos performed (at least all the ones I have spoken to on the subject). I enjoy performing and adapting choreographies I have been taught. It cements the knowledge for me & it's fun. I always credit the choreographer, however, the Egyptians (I have spoken to) aren't too bothered about this either, and there have been times where the crediting hasn't worked like I expected and I spoke after my dance to "make sure" everyone knew - the panting gasping dancer wants to say something ! It really spoiled the effect, and I thought I would not do that again.

I wouldn't attend the class of someone who had a [perform: no] policy on what they were teaching. I feel that it should be stated on flyers and upfront publicity. As for teaching someone elses choreography, I would never do, and I would expect most people to be upset about this.

Originally Posted by Uulady

I agree, once you put something out there, it really is out there. I guess I have been wondering why I am feeling more protective over this piece than I have over any before. Okay, here's a question, did anyone ever have a change of heart over a piece that you taught and then felt protective? Like if you could do it over, you would not have taught it? If so, what were your reasons?

The funny thing is that this is not a choreography I would perform again in the same way so why should I care? Strange huh? I'm trying to figure out why I seem to be hesitant with this.

You did say in your OP that you'd put a lot of "sweat and tears" into this particular piece. Perhaps that just means you have a closer emotional connection to it than is usual for you? I know, Captain Obvious, right? ..l;,

But maybe you're just not used to having that connection.

I wonder why it is that in many other popular dance styles like jazz, ballet, hip hop ect. It’s ok and even expected/assumed that the dancer is not the chorographer? Also how would you feel is you saw someone dancing to your chorography that you know you did teach? Maybe they just copied it from a performance video? Is that wrong?

Originally Posted by toria_dances

Maybe they just copied it from a performance video? Is that wrong?

As far as I know, copying a choreography from a performance video is considered bad form, but using a choreography from an instructional video is generally acceptable in a non-professional setting.

I only teach group choreographies that I create especially for my students, so I haven't come up against this issue...yet. If I saw someone performing one of my solo choreos (say, copied it from a performance video) I'd be VERY upset!!

My intention is for my students to have full rights to perform our class choreographies. But not to teach them, unless they're teaching for me, though my studio. I guess I should share that info, though, I've never been clear. It always seemed obvious to me that it would be WRONG to teach other people's choreos without their permission. I have one student who got angry at me because a group of us were working on a choreo we learned at a workshop I sponsored. She didn't attend the workshop, but thought we should teach her the choreo so she could perform it with us. Ummm..... NO! That wouldn't be fair to the workshop teacher, or to the students who paid for the workshop.

But even if your rules are very carefully spelled out, as Mahsati has done such a good job with above...how do you enforce it? Is it enforcable, in the real world? Or do you just get to be 'right' and justifiably angry if someone defies your intentions/permission?

And uulady, I don't know how to answer your questions, but I feel your pain. Sounds to me like you may have started teaching this one too soon.

You know, probably. But hearing the feedback and just putting the issue out there has helped to give me perspective I guess. I think I will stay the course and in the future just make sure I am really ready to let a baby go.

Thanks to you all for your input. I love Bhuzzers!!

WOW, that is a great emoticon!!! Where did you get it? It's so cute!

Anyways, I agree with Taj's comments about the deeper emotional connection to the piece and what she said about something being out there is out there.

This is an interesting discussion and interesting that you're noticing your aversion to letting a piece go.

My grain of salt...this dance is very old. The moves get transmitted from person to person and they slightly change, based on time, the person's body/interpretation/reception of the movement, etc. So the choreography, how these widely disseminated moves are put together, is a person's personal interpretation of music and those moves. It is the result of personal effort, creativity, as well as generations of people who also did/do this dance, whether directly or indirectly.

You might teach this exact choreography to someone, exactly, and it may still come out slightly different.

I don't feel I have ownership over a choreography. Just like I don't have ownership over the music to which I choreograph, yet I use it (unless it is created for me specifically; even then the musician can play it for someone else, and he has!). There is no ASCAP for a hafla or show, unless you are using original music, which you have permission to use. I think of it a bit like this.

When I teach a choreo (whether at a workshop or class or private), I distribute the choreo notes and at the top is the name of the artist, title of the song, and my copyright inscription for the piece of paper that has words describing a dance. That's all it is in my mind. Once I perform it, once I distribute the paper, it's out there. In a way, I've put people "on notice" that this particular combination of moves was put together by me on this year, modified on this year, etc. etc. But that is my only involvement in that piece. They can do whatever they want with it. True, that piece of paper, that distillation of movements does not contain the entire creative process used to commit it to paper, but I get to imbue my performance of that piece with that process behind it.

That is my expression to people and those with integrity know how to treat it. Those without, well...that is up to them and their actions will come back to them. It is out of my control.