Thread: Live drumming in dance class

I am interested in hearing your experiences with having a live drummer on an ongoing basis in dance classes.

Instructors...how have you used your drummers? What worked, what didn't? If you could have a live drummer in class, what would you do? What would you avoid?

Students...have you taken a class that included a live drummer? What was it like? Any highlights, or lowlights?

Back story: I am keeping this vague on purpose--I want to know your thoughts! I have long thought about trying to have a doumbeck player for my weekly classes on a regular basis, and I now have an opportunity (solid and from a trusted source). I have lots of ideas, but hope to hear yours. I have been in classes with a live drummer, but only in Egypt for workshops of private classes. I also am used to having guitar players and occasionally singers in flamenco classes (that I take, not teach!). I am curious how people have worked it all out in an ongoing weekly group class.

Thanks so much!

I love dancing to live music, and I firmly believe in musicians and dancers collaborating as much as ever possible.

However, my experiences with musicians accompanying instruction have been mixed. I have been to a workshop where (some of the very accomplished and skilled) musicians goofing off at periods where there was no need for music was disturbing and struck me as incredibly rude and disrespectful, overall, that turned me off the concept. And as a student who has been to regular classes with live drummers a few times, I can't say that I have learned anything from live drumming in classes that I didn't know before. (I have to add that I have done my homework learning about ME rhythms and that I have spent many nights dancing to live drumming at Pennsic, so a drummer isn't news to me.)

My personal preference would be for a more hafla/open dancefloor/learn to improv context. THAT I can never get enough of ;-)

For the past few years I have drummed in dance classes mainly as a backing drummer to a lead drummer. A couple of occasions I have been the only drummer.

I think you definitely need two drummers. One to hold the rhythm. The other to overlay any solos. The lead drummer should also know how to follow the dancer when required, which is a dying art these days.

Ooh i've never really danced to a live drummer. i would love to attend a class like that. It would be a much better way to get used to it. That's great that you want that for your students.

I've been fortunate to work with musicians for my regular classes, as well as workshops.

During warm up Bill would play oud. Then he would switch to doumbek for drills and across the floor techniques and I would tell him what rhythms to play at the cadence I wanted. Then for cool down he would play oud again.
He would also compose drum solos for me for the end of session recitals, at which he would often play. If not, he would give me a recorded version for the students to dance to.

I loved having him play with my classes because that meant I didn't have to futz with a tape/CD player. One time when I twisted my ankle and couldn't physically teach the class, I had him bring instruments to class and he taught the class to play various ME rhythms on the instruments.

Now Bill runs his own regular live drumming/dancing class.

I've also used Bill (to play oud) and another doumbek player, Joe, for my "Dancing to Live Music" workshops. This is when we break down a typical cabaret set and the musicians add their input and anecdotes to what makes a successful live musician/dancer collaboration during a show. We also review zill patterns for the dancers who wish to play them. We'd talk about either the entrance, taqsim, drum solo, and finale, they'd play that type of music and the dancers would practice, one by one, performing improvisation with them. Then at the end they would do mini sets where small groups would go through the whole routine. [I might add it was always appreciated when I had beer for the musicians at these workshops ]

The dancers learned from musicians' perspectives what was cool and not cool during a set. If, during play, the musician saw the dancer doing something "highly irregular" they would stop, we would discuss, and they would allow the dancer to do it again to drive the point home. This was especially helpful for practicing how to "end" using visual and musical cues. It was also a fun time to exchange funny stories and unique experiences.

If I can piggy-back on the thread...how much does one pay a musician for an hour of classtime?

The instructor's son was the drummer at the first bellydance school that I attended. Since I was a newborn babybelly I didn't think anything of it. I took it for granted and figured that it was pretty much par for the course. Looking back, I think that it was a great way to introduce beginning students to the various drum rythms. I say that if you get an opportunity to use a drummer, go for it! Your students would greatly benefit from it.

Actually, I miss it!

I've taken classes with a live drummer and it's VERY helpful for students to learn the rhythms. If you have certain "signature" combinations to teach to each rhythm, it really helps those who learn by doing (as opposed to listening or watching). I still sometimes identify certain rythyms by doing the signature combo in my head.

I haven't been to Mesmera's class in a looooong time, but she had a live drummer. It was really helpful to me. I had never been in a class with live music before, so it really was a treat.

It wasn't totally necessary. Tamra henna's class didn't have a live drummer, but she uses rhythm CDs to go over the rhythms and gives the students combos for them.

I also attended a workshop with Yasmina of Canada (love her!) and she had live drumming. (Sulaiman Warwar) he's an awesome drummer and lot's of fun to look at ..g.: ..g.:

In all seriousness, having him there was definitely a bonus. We went over some drum solo stuff, as well as entrances and exits, and having a live musician there made the instruction so much easier to grasp.

Live music is good!

My Teacher had a live drummer in class and when we did our warm ups to cd music he would drum along and then it was great to also learn rhythms from him as well as drum solo improv.

I had live drumming in my classes for years, but I have discontinued it for now. I have found that my beginning students seem better able to concentrate without a musician/audience, but I do plan to have musicians come in for specific sessions with my students to help them in working with live music. We work on rhythms through zill work, history, and movement combinations - and I will clap or bring my drum and demonstrate as well.

I also ran into the issue a few times where I lost students because the drummers were male and for religious, cultural, social, or personal reasons the student was unable to take class with a male drummer. (While my classes are open to students of any gender, I usually have largely female classes and haven't run into the issue with fellow students.)

Personal opinion: It can be a fun thing for class, but it can also be a distraction for the students depending on their level and the drummer/musician. Either way, it is something to consider when planning classes.

Originally Posted by mahsati

I also ran into the issue a few times where I lost students because the drummers were male and for religious, cultural, social, or personal reasons the student was unable to take class with a male drummer. (While my classes are open to students of any gender, I usually have largely female classes and haven't run into the issue with fellow students.)

Personal opinion: It can be a fun thing for class, but it can also be a distraction for the students depending on their level and the drummer/musician. Either way, it is something to consider when planning classes.

True true! As alluded to above, a good looking drummer can be a distraction, not to mention a distraction for self-consciousness and religious issues. That happened very rarely but yes, do consider the students' comfort level. If there are female drummers in the area, that might be even better.

The classes I've been in with live drummers have been for drilling - not solo work. But they were very. very useful as in "Okay, again but take the speed up to dum dum ..." Also great to get the hang of rhythms.

With regular classes (as opposed to in a camp or workshop) the drummer would come in for the last half an hour. So we could do stuff that didn't need a drummer without him sitting around being paid and being a nuisance (fiddling with his drum, flirting with students, yakking to his mate).

Originally Posted by mahsati

I also ran into the issue a few times where I lost students because the drummers were male and for religious, cultural, social, or personal reasons the student was unable to take class with a male drummer. (While my classes are open to students of any gender, I usually have largely female classes and haven't run into the issue with fellow students.)

I have a friend who by co incidence ended up at the studio where I drum and she won't go to live music because I'm there. This is in spite of the fact I've seen her dance at a party once.

Normally the live music classes are seperate to regular classes. At this particular studio it use to be every Saturday morning. Now it's once a month on a Monday night.

It is normally the intermediate to advance students who show up. Once you reach a certain level you do have to expect to dance in front of musicians. There is no way you could even dance in front of a public crowd with a CD if you have hang ups about it.

I have been playing every Tuesday night for a beginning and then an intermediate class for, what, over a year now? Jenna and Saundra are great dancers but also absolute professionals, and I bring that attitude to the class as well. I give the teacher the same respect that I would appreciate if I were in their tights - in a room full of mirrors I work at not being a distraction. I sit at the back quietly when not playing and don’t noodle around on the drum, do stretches, spin in my chair, chew gum…you get the idea. I am well-groomed and well-dressed, hopefully further bringing a sense of professionalism to the class.

I also understood from the beginning that my presence could cause some discomfort. I minimize this by pointedly not making eye contact with anyone except for the teacher during the session. I greet the dancers that I know, give a nod to those that I don’t, and sometimes hand out some CD’s of music. During warm-ups, I am playing along with recorded music, warming up myself and pretty much staring at the floor. When called for I will play whatever you want at whatever speed you wish, and at that point I will carefully watch the instructor for cues. I try to be sensitive to students that might be put off by the 800-pound gorilla in the room – A MAN! – and I don’t think that I have ever been the cause for someone not coming to a class or not continuing their education in this art form. I have worked hard to earn and keep the respect of the teachers and the students so that I am an asset and bring value to the experience, and I think and hope that this vibe is evident to anyone that walks into the room. I am not going to squander this precious commodity by ogling someone during hip-circle drills or by taking away from the instructor’s control of the class and their attention.

Kudos to Larry!! It sounds like you understand the situation perfectly. In the classroom, you are essentially the instructor's employee. As such, it's disrespectful and distracting to play when you aren't asked and flirt with the students. You are there to help her students learn, not find a hookup. Let me know if you are ever in the St. Louis area!

My only experience with a live drummer in class is at Yousry's weeklong. It has it's good points and bad points. The drummers he uses conduct themselves professionally and play well. When learning a new choreography it helps to have the drums brought forward with live music. Plus, for early drills any rhythm can be played at any speed. The downside is that sometimes the drumming overpowers the recorded music so that when you are listening to the CD it doesn't even sound like the same piece! You are able to pick up on nuances in the music that you couldn't hear before.

I think having a live drummer in an ongoing weekly class would be quite an asset IF they are professionals and act accordingly. Rhythm CDs are great, but I think it would be so much better to be able to slow down/speed up whenever you liked. Perhaps you could ask your current students if they have any reservations (religious etc) on having a live drummer. If everyone is OK with it, take the wonderful opportunity you have in front of you! Once this is established, all incoming students will be exposed to the situation right away and hopefully won't think anything's unusual about it.

I might also point out that I play the rhythms simply to start - I am not there to show off. For the intermediate class I play more fills - both the teacher and the students seem to prefer it...

We have drummers who come in the 2nd Thursday of every month for the last 1/2 hour of class. Feb will only be our third time with the drummers, but the feedback I have received so far from both the dancers and the drummers has been very positive.

My method so far has been to choose a specific rhythm and have the drummers play that rhythm repeatedly while the students learn to listen for the rhythm and play zills to the specific rhythm.

Then, the last 15 minutes or so, I have the drummers just do their thing and the dancers dance and learn to listen for the repeating sequences, etc. at the same time.

It always feels more like a Hafla at the end than a class. lol

All in all, it is a great addition to my classes and something that the students and myself all really enjoy.

Originally Posted by LarryH

I also understood from the beginning that my presence could cause some discomfort. I minimize this by pointedly not making eye contact with anyone except for the teacher during the session. I greet the dancers that I know, give a nod to those that I don’t, and sometimes hand out some CD’s of music. During warm-ups, I am playing along with recorded music, warming up myself and pretty much staring at the floor. When called for I will play whatever you want at whatever speed you wish, and at that point I will carefully watch the instructor for cues.
{snip}
I am not going to squander this precious commodity by ogling someone during hip-circle drills or by taking away from the instructor’s control of the class and their attention.

Is it bad for the drummer to watch the dancers? I've played for dancers before, and it never occurred to me that I shouldn't watch them dancing.

Originally Posted by da Sage

Is it bad for the drummer to watch the dancers? I've played for dancers before, and it never occurred to me that I shouldn't watch them dancing.

Depends. Generally in a professional environment where you have to do improvisation the musicians have to look at the dancer and pick up when the dancer wants the musician to follow her.

I general find a dancer will make eye contact with you when she wants to communicate a change.

In a class environment that might be different. But as I have said before generally in Sydney it's only students that have reached a certain level and are performing that go to live music classes.

So if a dancer has performed in public they generally don't have hang ups about people watching them.

Now having a musician go and chat up a dancer afterwards, that's a different story and not overly professional. But I normally find student dancers will come up to you first to chat because over here everyone knows everyone.

Originally Posted by da Sage

Is it bad for the drummer to watch the dancers? I've played for dancers before, and it never occurred to me that I shouldn't watch them dancing.

In a beginner class it might make students feel self-conscious, but probably more so if it's a dude in a mostly female class.

I believe a female drummer would put apprehensive, beginner-level, self-conscious students at ease.

Definitely for live music performance or that kind of training, gotta watch the dancer.

Students...have you taken a class that included a live drummer? What was it like? Any highlights, or lowlights?

I have limited experience of it. Both times I attended Oasis Dance Camp we had Nicole LeCorgne, who is particularly fabulous because she is both skilled and unobtrusive. As a teacher, it would be so fantastic to be able to tell your "stereo" the rhythm you want and the speed you want, and just have it do that for you - Nicole is like that in class. So as a student you are drilling a step or combination, and the drum does what it needs to do. If people are missing a certain accent, miraculously that accent gets louder and snappier. It stops and starts and changes when the teacher wants it to and does what the teacher says. Fantastic!

Obviously Nicole is a human and she does have an ego, but she doesn't *seem* to have an ego when drumming in class. There's none of this "oh I must impose my drummervision on you" that you get from some drummers, especially - dare I say it? - boy drummers. She and Cassandra work well together so the experience is very seamless.

We can't keep drummers in these here parts - they keep *going away* - but a few years back my teacher was working with some drummers and we had them in class from time to time. That was pretty good as well. We did a class piece to live drums once, which was tremendously challenging. It was exciting though to have music that would do what *you* did rather than the other way around! We got to do a little doodad of our own as we exited, and I can still remember how thrilling it was when the drummer, having watched me a couple of times, did a special little accenty thing that matched my movement. It was a tiny taste of what working with a sympathetic live band must be like - so cool.

After that I think it depends a lot on the personality of the drummer. They need to fit in with class and not disrupt it, if that makes any sense. They're not allowed to get bored and start doing crazy fills of their own volition, they can't be Big Stars. Not all musicians would do it well.

Hi there!

I agree with everyone. The drummer's style should match the instructor's requirments. My husband is a drummer. His pet peeves are playing along a CD-Why have a musician who is just embellishing for a class?; it distracts from the student's ear to hear the actual beats & how to step or dance to the music.

I was trained in West African & Caribbean dance before Middle-eastern, so we automatically had classes with drummers- No excuses. You had to know when you started your moves, turn, dip & change with the drum beats. Most of the rhythms played were karachi, ayoub, or various 6 counts. I just love the 6 counts!!! People just think someone plays a drum & the dancers just goes & dances, but the dancers' steps needs to complement & interpret the rhythms, so I use this theory for classes. Which is why I see similarity between a west african drum solo & a mid-east drum solo percussion & dance

For the warm-up, basic slow rhythms: wahda, baladi, masmoudi, saiidi, samaii thakil, chiftitelli taksim

For drills: I will have my husband or the drummer say the rhythm pattern in the beginning, then the voice fades out, then I will have the students say the rhythm, then no voices, but just dance once everyone is up to speed with rhythm recognition. Baladi, saiidi, maqsoum, ayoub. Played continuously, and can vary the speed from slow to fast FOr instance, Students have to know when a baladi rhythm starts, so they would hear it contuously, then they would have to know when to step or place their move (ie hip drop) to correspond to the dom beats

For shimmys: varying rolls, stops & starts with pops for accents

For more advanced students: Transitions from one rhythm to the next (baladi to wahda to masmoudi to nawakht, to draj, and back, etc. As well as various flavors & accents of the basic rhythms

All of these are drills to start with, then a mini choreo to put the moves together

Then at the end, we throw in a class drum solo (Shimmy crunk) where everyone dances together, then does their own solo to emphasize the rhythms, the move that they learned, to obtain confidence in dancing to live drums, & to compete with each other

2) My husband likes to be paid at least $40-50 for the hour. Now that may not be feasible every week, so a class devoted to live drumming could be set a side for 1 or 2 classes after the beginner student is familiar with the music on CD

-Tipsuda

Originally Posted by Vahana

My method so far has been to choose a specific rhythm and have the drummers play that rhythm repeatedly while the students learn to listen for the rhythm and play zills to the specific rhythm.

Then, the last 15 minutes or so, I have the drummers just do their thing and the dancers dance and learn to listen for the repeating sequences, etc. at the same time.

I've had a drummer in my Int/Adv class and we did basically the same thing. He only came for the last 1/2 hour of class every other week. My students and I really enjoyed working with him.

Having a male in the class did change the dynamics somewhat. We were all on our best behavior. And I couldn't use him in my Beginner's class beacuse a few of the students were religiously modest.
HTH

Originally Posted by Azhia

In a beginner class it might make students feel self-conscious, but probably more so if it's a dude in a mostly female class.

I believe a female drummer would put apprehensive, beginner-level, self-conscious students at ease.

Definitely for live music performance or that kind of training, gotta watch the dancer.

Perhaps...and that's definitely true if you have muslim students in class (when I had hijab-observant muslim students in class, I would always get a female drummer for classes when I brought in the drummer), but I think a lot depends on the the class and on the drummer and the kind of rapport he or she is able to set with the students. I've seen situations where beginning dancers seemed a little intimidated by the male drummers, but others where they really didn't or where they got over it very, very quickly.

I try to have live drumming at least once every 8-week session. My husband plays tabla, and and when I can get him, he's usually my drummer of choice--partially because it's nice to work with my husband, sure, but also because he seems to be really good at quickly building the kind of rapport with the students that makes them ok. I give them warning the week before and they maybe seem a little nervous at first, but they get over it pretty quickly. Of course...it's a unique situation. A.) He's married to me, so they know he's seen 100s of beginning students, been to haflas, and that he's supportive of people learning to dance etc., b.) I let him do some of the talking/teaching on the day he's in--about the drum rhythms, etc. The guy's a college professor, so he's really good at setting comfort and rapport that way and making it about what you're trying to learn, not about being on display, and c.) my husband is kind of a big friendly, outgoing goof ball--it's hard to be too intimidated by him. On the other hand, I did once meet a female drummer who...I don't know, I think she would have been more intimidating for some of the students because she seemed less approachable and a little more judgmental (even though I don't really think she was.) So...it all depends on the person.

That said, though, when my drummers come in, they usually are *mainly* watching me, not the students--and that's simply because I'm the one with whom they need to be communicating (often visually) about tempo, volume, stop/start, etc.

excellent points made by all.....

i've had live drumming in my classes as well, and my drummer friends also had some issues with other teachers...........if you want drumming, you need to be THE BOSS....be very clear what you want, be knowledgeable of the rhythms, and how you'll use them as a tool for teaching, and have a good, solid rapport with the percussionist....

there are hurdles. one is potentially a drummer's, the other is the teacher's.

drummer ego....that can take the wind out of a class's sails....alot of drummers think they're the shiznitz when they are barely competent.....they'll ignore the teacher's requirements, simply to show off.....or, good drummers who use your class to practice complicated rhythms....they say, how 'bout a 9/8? in a beginners class when they barely know a 4/4.....they need to save those practices for THEIR instruction, or haflas with advanced students....

a great drummer, really talented ones, are there for the TEACHER....she's the boss, he knows it, but will make excellent suggestions, and watches for cues....they don't use the class for personal 'showmanship', or to practice new funky stuff, unless the class is advanced and can be challenged by it.

also, if you can, avoid the TYPICAL 'community drum circle improv dudes'.....see if they know the rhythms first, they may be nice guys, and quite 'raw talented', but if they meet your request for an ayoub with a blank stare, pass....(but suggest a good instructor/instructional material, so they can and WILL learn) there's a band here who REALLY wants to play for belly dancers, but REFUSE to learn the rhythms..............

the teacher: if you have a solid body of work, solid knowledge of the rhythms and can communicate them, and have strong control....WITH a drummer on the same wavelength, you'll love it.........BUT......a complaint a drummer friend i had about a very amateur tribal troupe's director was that she wanted him to drum, but they spent the first 20 minutes talking about costume pieces, another 1/2 to 45 minutes using cd's for 'choreography', and most of the time he plays for, oh, 5 minutes, IF HE PLAYED AT ALL....he traveled 35 minutes to sit there, twiddling his thumbs listening to a hen party and cd's...he'd bring it up, she'd say ok...............only to have it repeated AGAIN

larryh? more input? never met you but you seem very knowledgeable and awesome..............

Ruta -

Your comments are dead on!

The purpose of any class is to provide instruction to the student, not to show how fast I can play or to showcase my vast knowledge of complex rhythms.

The drum circle dude you describe is pretty prevalent, and I am dismayed when I show up and these folks can beat on a drum and improv to no end but don't know rhythms and don't know proper technique. I may not be much of a soloist (yet!) but I do know a beledi from a hole in the ground! And why do I think these guys would be more interested in scanning the class while licking their lips than for keeping an eye on the dancers and instructor for coordination?

I understand about showing up and not playing much, and that is inappropriate and thoughtless on the teacher's part. Yes, there may be times when a certain piece of choreo needs a CD played consistently; I found recently that it was quite possibly my drumming along with a CD that was causing the class to lose their concentration on a George Abdo piece so I stopped playing. I think they did much better at following the complex changes in rhythm and tempo after that. But don't invite me and then don't use me!

I wouldn't be averse at all to auditioning for a spot in a class - something dancers are very familiar with and something that should be acceptable to any musician. This lets both of us feel each other out for talent on my side and compatability on your side.

But YOU are the boss and you dictate behavior in the class - the students are there for you and because of you as the instructor. If the drummer doesn't like the gig, he can go back home and play with his Wii! ;)

Thank you so much to everyone who shared their experiences on this thread (and feel free to keep them coming). It is really great information, and I will definitely be using all that you have shared as I proceed with adding a live drummer to my classes.

Thank you, thank you! I'll let you know how it goes. :)