Thread: Ok...is there a tactful way to help with this

This topic came up the other night--thought I'd put this question to bhuzzers to see what you guys think:
Lets say you have a student (or more than one student) who has relocated to your local area from some other area where she'd taken dance. Said dancer is someone with a lot of potential--good movement, good style, good performance skills, etc. And she has aspirations of performing professionally or semi-professionally. Great! She's developing in all the right ways, she's cute, and you know that dance-wise she can get there.

But...where she came from, the style in terms of "look" that restaurant owners or people who hired people for gigs typically expected was a little different from where you live. I'm not talking about body type or age or facial prettiness or anything like that--let's assume we're talking about ladies for whom those things won't be any issue. But what if you have a gal whose background and style is ultra natural and low key--very light makeup, hair just pulled back in a barrette, simple bra/belt or hip scarf, chiffon skirt costume, but the asethetic in your area is more "sophisticated": A little more stylized makeup (at least around the eyes), hair's a little more sleek or more planned looking, costumes tend toward the Eman/Hanan/Raqia type look. So, people think she looks a little "amateurish" or unprepared. Or the flipside--you have a gal who does the big fake hair, can tan, tons of makeup and jewelry and glitter but the local aesthetic is more of a natural look. So, people find her a little "scary". Either way...because she's not presenting herself the way the local people expect, her job options may be limited.

Is there any way you can--tactfully--help? Is there any way to help your granola girl spruce up for performance without making her feel like you want her to be plastic? Any way to help your glamazon tone it down a little without feeling like you're saying she might as well come to a gig wrapped in burlap? Personal style and how feel when you dance is so, well, PERSONAL, but at still, people expect a certain "image" to some extent when they hire a dancer (and that image varies a little bit by region.)

Any thoughts or experience working with this kind of thing and/or seeing students/dancers making the transition from one area to another?

Can you hold a "Going Pro" workshop, where you talk about what restaurants in the area are looking for? Discuss make-up, hair and costuming (as well as what to charge, and other stuff pros should know) and bring marketing material from other dancers that have gigs as examples.

I say, just be frank and honest with her. Tell her what the norms are for peformers in your area - encourage her to go see shows and try to make her own personal style a bit more in line with whatever the norm is for your area.

If she wants to work, she'll make whatever changes she needs to (providing it's superficial - i.e.: makeup/hair related and not radical like a boob job or something), and really it's not a personal attack, it's informational.

Since she has chosen to be your student, she is placing herself in a situation where she's presumably expecting instruction/feedback from you, so that empowers you to give her feedback.

I agree with Tamrahenna, just be straightforward about it.

I'd probably try something like this: "I notice that when you perform, you tend to go for a minimalist approach to hair style, makeup, and costuming. Although that's fine for haflas, around here the minimalist look is usually seen only on 'student-level' dancers. Here in our community audiences expect dancers on professional gigs to glam it up more."

I'm guessing granola girl doesn't know how to glam it up and needs more help (I did!). A make-up workshop did wonders for me.

But, how do you tell her the unshaven legs won't fly in your hood? ,r:;

Thirding the straightforward approach - I like Shira's wording especially.

You can also add that when you go pro, you are in fact becoming part of the entertainment industry, which often requires performers to conform to at least to some degree a certain aesthetic appearance. Certainly if she chooses to not perform professionally, she's welcome to dress however she likes, even if she's one of the best dancers around.

i'm on the frank honest page too.
i have had dancers come here and find out they must learn zills etc.
be honest...they want to work...it is their decision in the end .
it is diff all over.every town has "it's look".

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

...providing it's superficial - i.e.: makeup/hair related and not radical like a boob job or something...

..l;, That's a good point. I *am* rather fond of passing on to my students a bit o' "you don't have to have been born perfect or permanently change who you are to look the part of the dancer when you perform" wisdom an instructor once told us when we were "coming up":

"You can always buy boobs and hair"
(meaning pads, not implants)

I would want to be told, maybe in an email or personal interaction (not necessarily in class). Or have it addressed in class to all students. I definitely would want to be told if it was impacting my ability to get work.

My teacher accomplishes these things by creating requirements for the recital, which leads to people following the same standards as performers elsewhere. Nails have to be done, hair has to be styled, makeup MUST be worn. Costumes are worn for dress rehearsal and she will say "You need to pin that", "you need to tighten the straps on that top", "that skirt is too sheer."

another approach ?
tell her her face etc .will not show up in club, resturant, lighting !
that going to the next level involves "the total package"

Good question, and it's a tricky topic. You don't want to alienate anybody or come off as shallow....but proper makeup application is an essential skill for any professional dancer.

I'd suggest, for everybody's benefit, scheduling some sort of workshop on hair and makeup for your students. You could teach, if you're knowledgeable on the topic, or find another dancer in the area who is competent to lecture on it. Or you could get a video on hair/makeup for dancers and watch it at your place and make a fun night of it, where you have refreshments and everybody could bring their own makeup. (I am thinking of doing that with my students, if and when any of them express interest in dancing professionally). That way, you're not singling anybody out, and everybody benefits and has fun.

One thing NOT to do, obviously, is to deride any *unchangeable* aspect of her physical appearance, i.e. weight, height, age, skin color, race, hair color, anything that can't be fixed or enhanced with makeup or costuming. This will alienate your students, dash your credibility (because everybody will think your priorities are backasswards) and bite you in the ass in a million different ways.

A former instructor of mine who (thankfully) relocated across the country (and shall remain anonymous) was rather infamous for "telling it like it is," even if her feedback was not solicited. It annoyed the living sh*t out of a lot of local dancers, because none of us, except for a very slim handful, were really safe from her wacky opinions: we were all too fat, too thin, too white, too black, too old, too young, too buxom, too skinny, too redhead....you get the picture. Unless you were small (but not petite), curvy in the right places, and vaguely Mediterranean looking, you weren't fit to dance professionally. Period. It took me upwards of a year to recover spiritually after I was told that I had no business to perform in restaurants because I am petite, slender, blonde, blue-eyed and more mainstream-pretty than commercially "ethnic."

Also, you never know what kind of history your student may have: if you unintentionally say the wrong thing to a recovering anorexic or bulimic, the results could be devestating.

I know I tend to beat a dead horse on this topic, but I just believe that certain comments on appearance are not a teacher's place at all. That decision ultimately rests with the restaurant owner or the client. Just because my teacher thought that only the olive skinned and voluptuous should dance doesn't mean that it's true across the board: happily, I've discovered that a lot of clients LOVE my big blue eyes, petite stature and classic American look. And I wouldn't trade my look for anything in the world. (After all....Helen of Troy was rumored to be a blonde ..l;, )

This is not to say we should all step on eggshells. But position it positively, gently and in a spirit of helping instill a professional skill and you'll be golden.

Lisa

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I'd suggest, for everybody's benefit, scheduling some sort of workshop on hair and makeup for your students. You could teach, if you're knowledgeable on the topic, or find another dancer in the area who is competent to lecture on it. Or you could get a video on hair/makeup for dancers and watch it at your place and make a fun night of it, where you have refreshments and everybody could bring their own makeup. (I am thinking of doing that with my students, if and when any of them express interest in dancing professionally). That way, you're not singling anybody out, and everybody benefits and has fun.

Lisa, you make a good point. There may be other students in that class who might enjoy learning about hair and makeup, whether they have professional aspirations or not.

And I agree with Nepenthe's point that requiring students to do hair/makeup according to professional expectations even for student recitals is a good way to help them develop and refine the skill. If they're good enough to perform in a recital, they're good enough to learn other performing-related skills!

I offered a stage makeup class for my student troupe prior to their first performance and it was a great success. I had them bring their own makeup, and just showed them the 30 minute process of putting my own stage makeup on while they followed along.

ita with being straight forward.
like the workshop idea too.

if its just these 2 pros, i would tell them each privately, individually of course.

i was the granola girl. my coach nearly had to hold me down and hair spray me. but, she said if i wanted to work in that market and be competitive, it was necessary. i will always be grateful to her for teaching me and i believe your students will be too.

just come from the position of "this will help your dance career". they trust you b/c they chose to study with you, so they will value your advice.

I actually already have offered a performance class of this sort with a make up component, though that's good advice for someone who may be dealing with people who just don't have any idea where to start/any experience.

Given that, I guess for me/the dancers I'm working with, it's going to bea more one-on-one thing. For the "natural girls" it's not that they don't wear any make up at all, it's just that...well...it's a little too little. I think Nasila may actually really be on to something: it's not a matter of not knowing that there is a look or that makeup is required, it's not having any idea how to achieve it without going what feels "overboard" to them. They see the gals who are a little too much and it scares them...plus they're not big makeup wearers in day-to-day life and don't really have theater/acting experience, so I don't think they truly understand just how much stage lighting will suck up and so how much they have to look UNlike themselves closeup to look LIKE their beautiful selves from the audience when they're onstage, if that makes sense. :-) But...if you're not used to wearing makeup/using it, it's hard to figure out how to do it right/get the result you want without ending up looking like a drag queen. So...we'll try the one-on-one approach, I guess. I liked Shira's response too...I think that may be good...along with maybe introducing/having her watch some of the dancers who are successful in the area who are closer to a style she might like/be able to achieve comfortably. (There are obviously some who are more done-up and glitzy/makeup-y and glittery than others...)

...Oh...and incidentally, for the record...I empathize with those who don't know what to do. I've had my own challenges where these things are concerned. I had some theatrical background, so I "got" the stage makeup thing ok, but I missed several days of girl school and never got nail polish, eyelash curlers, liquid eyeliner, glitter, or eyeshadow color application until after I became a professional dancer. Heck, when I turned 27 I begged a friend to sit down and SHOW me how to apply nail polish because I was sick of always walking around with either undone nails or half my house stuck in the mangled, scraped polish, and nail polish all over my hands and the dining room table (down now to a small clump or two of cat hair on each hand and a little polish on the newspaper. This is significant progress!)

Mirah,
I'm someone who dances in a college town. The natural look and simple costuming is a little more prevalent here due to audience preference (full of hippies), and financial constraints. But I see how things are done in major cities and if I moved to one I would be completely understanding of the different market/setting. I do wish we had the opportunity to go glam more often. But with make up, I definitely do it up.

I think that an issue with the makeup is just that people don't realize that what might be perfectly acceptable, or even a little overdone, for a day at the office isn't going to cut it in a performance.

Despite living in Granola-ville, I do pay close attention to makeup. When I apply makeup for a performance, my goal is to not look like someone who sits in a cubicle all day. I want people to look at me and say "Who is she and what does she do all day when she's not bellydancing."

I achieved this in part by putting on my makeup, looking at myself in the mirror and saying "Egad!" Then I walk away for five or ten minutes and do something else. Usually, when I go back to the mirror, my eyes have adjusted to the new look. I am no longer a mild-mannered Office Worker, I am Bellydancer Extraordinaire ready to take the audience on their journey.

This has taken me a lot of practice, and I'm still not up to where I would need to be to work in a high-end club in New York, for example. But I'm getting there.

I would say that in general, just be straight about what your local audience expects and what will be the most profitable. And offer help or resources for stage makeup and costuming.

I'm pale with blond eyebrows and eyelashes - so I need lots of make-up for performing! (Probably more than I'm already using )

Way before I started dancing, I was a server at a Red Lobster and when one of the managers (a woman) hired me, she told me outright that I needed to wear make-up, especially lipstick. She herself was really into make-up, so she was a little biased, and part of me was a little offended, but it was good advice and I took it. Putting on my "face" (far less than what I put on for dancing), was part of my uniform for the job. It helped me feel put together and ready to face the customers for the evening.

For me, the direct approach of being told I needed to wear more make-up, was best. If she had told all of the servers together at a meeting that "some of you need to wear more make-up", it may or may not have sunk in.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Lisa, you make a good point. There may be other students in that class who might enjoy learning about hair and makeup, whether they have professional aspirations or not.

And I agree with Nepenthe's point that requiring students to do hair/makeup according to professional expectations even for student recitals is a good way to help them develop and refine the skill. If they're good enough to perform in a recital, they're good enough to learn other performing-related skills!

Yes, I second what all three of you said.
Before-and-After photos might work, too. All you need is a blank wall and a digital camera. Although a tri-pod might be nice too, to put the camera on. Then photo everyone Before and After.
I liked the idea of showing the class marking materials from other local dancers. It is a good way to show what the locals expect to see. Another idea is to actually go see the other dancers perform.
Also, photos and videos of dress rehearsals, performances, and haflas are good teaching tools. Sometimes people don't realize what they look like until they see themselves on film.

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

I I don't think they truly understand just how much stage lighting will suck up and so how much they have to look UNlike themselves closeup to look LIKE their beautiful selves from the audience when they're onstage, if that makes sense. :-)

That's where photos and video helps. People just don't know what a difference it makes until they see themselves in both "normal" and "dance" make ups and see the difference.

As a former granola girl myself, I've been lucky enough to have a straight forward teacher/dance partners who are all very skilled with the hair and makeup stuff. I still have a long way to go, but I found it helpful to just be told that if I want my face to be seen on stage, I had to feel like I was putting on way too much makeup (because you have to!). Like I said, I still have a long way to go, and I'll be honest -- at first, it hurt to hear -- but looking at photos now vs. photos then it makes a world of difference! (as does the lack of hairy armpits in beautiful bedlah... tehehe)