Thread: 3/4 shimmy, down hip style: how do you drive it?

If you were brave enough to open this post and face yet another agonizing 3/4 shimmy discussion, I salute you.

Generally I do a 3/4 shimmy driven by the glutes (stepping on the R foot, squeezing RLR, opposite on the left).

For the last couple of classes my teacher has been trying to get us out of our "shimmy comfort zones". She is having us 3/4 shimmy with hip drops instead, i.e., step on the R foot, drop the R hip, lift it, drop it again. Opposite on the left.

I'm finding this really awkward and I'm wondering whether I'm making it harder than it needs to be. If you do this shimmy (which my teacher calls "3/4 shimmy on the down"), how do you drive the hip drops? Are you pushing with the obliques (which is how I drop my hip, usually), bending and straightening the knee, lifting the opposite hip... what?

I'd appreciate hearing the technique tips of others. Thanks!

I'm not really qualified to answer this - so take it with the appropriate amount of salt:

I "think" I drive it down with the obliques and allow the knee to bend as needed... This said, are you doing a simple 3/4 down shimmy or is it a 3/4 TWIST down shimmy? I do the latter, the former warps my brain although you'd think it would be easier!

I'll be looking forward to better answers from the more qualified!

My very first instructor had it broken down to a 3 count where you pushed "out" on the right hip, shifting the weight to right foot and lifting left foot off the ground (with bent knee), then a left hip lift and drop of "up-down"... followed by the Left hip pushing "out" and shifting weight before "up-down" on the Right hip.

the count:
R out, L up-down (1-2-3)
L out, R up-down (1-2-3)

or alternativily... if you miss the very first count, the move is just
L up-down-out
R up-down-out

I think this is generally what your teacher is trying to get you to do, except that she's having you think about the hip starting in a down position before the "up-down"

Originally Posted by zorba

I'm not really qualified to answer this - so take it with the appropriate amount of salt:

I "think" I drive it down with the obliques and allow the knee to bend as needed... This said, are you doing a simple 3/4 down shimmy or is it a 3/4 TWIST down shimmy? I do the latter, the former warps my brain although you'd think it would be easier!

I'll be looking forward to better answers from the more qualified!

OK, I will bite. Can you describe the 3/4 twist down shimmy without causing space and time to fold in on themselves?

I'm at work at the moment and breaking down this move is perplexing me that I have to get up and do it!!! ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, I love a challenge

When I do the 3/4 shimmy, I do it with a weight change from the right leg to the left leg *Wish there was some way that you can see what I'm doing*.

If I start the 3/4 shimmy on my right leg, my left foot is flat with the weight on it and my right foot is in a slight dig position (heel slightly off the ground, ball of foot touching the ground).

With my right foot in a dig position, my right hip is slightly lifted to go down.

With my right foot in a dig position, my right hip will drop down, come up and drop down (1,2,3 count) while my right foot rolls down from the ball of the foot to the heel. Your right foot is now flat on the floor.

Now your weight is on the right foot and your left foot is free, place your left foot in a slight dig position.

Left side:
With my left foot in a dig position, my left hip will drop down, come up and drop down (1,2,3 count) while my left foot rolls down from the ball of the foot to the heel and now is flat on the floor.

Weight is on your left foot and right is free. Place right foot in dig position and repeat on right side.

With practice, you can speed it up.

Sorry if this is so wordy. Sorry if I completely confused you. I'm trying to figure out the best way to break it down for ya :)

It depends a little bit on what look I'm trying to achieve with the down shimmy...if we're trying to get a "haggalla shimmy" (the nice, loose, more earthy down-down, down-down, down-down kind of shimmy--with or without the haggalla "lilt") then it's a little more in the legs, using the legs as "shock absorbers." Rather than thinking about it as pushing the obliques down, I think of it as lengthening them allow the hip to release/drop down further, if that makes sense. Makes the movement a little more soft and juicey. If I want something a little more punctuated/staccato looking...I acutally engage the glute ever so slightly with the second down to stop it and get some reverb and I may articulate the hip down/with a twist more specifically, but still...I don't really feel that much like I'm *pushing* or driving my obliques, I still feel more like I'm allowing the weight of my hips to drop into my legs (and my obliques are lengthening), if that makes sense. That's keeping my torso muscles and hip muscles free to potentially do some other layering.

...(sorry, hit submit too quick)

All that said, even though the "drop" is an "allow" for me, yes, if what you've been doing is up-up-up, it feels really weird and unnatural--takes a while to feel "right" letting your hip drop down as you take a step, but ultimately, gravity can be your friend with this particular shimmy. :-)

Uh oh...I feel a rift in the space/time continuum coming on.. :-)
Now, on this subject of 3/4 shimmies; is the 3/4 shimmy originally a Ghawazee move? If so, then perhaps the twisting type would work more humanely with our momentum. Is the emphasis on the first or second bump/twist?

*jumping into fray*

I don't use my glutes for the 3/4 shimmy either on the up or on the down. In both cases, the movement seems to be driven mostly from my knees with some involvement of the obliques, and I keep everything else relaxed.

I like MirahAmmal's description: lengthening the obliques is also how I try to place the emphasis on the down movement to distinguish it from an upward 3/4 shimmy.

Originally Posted by tigerb

OK, I will bite. Can you describe the 3/4 twist down shimmy without causing space and time to fold in on themselves?

I've also heard it called an up-and-over shimmy or a hagallah shimmy. As you step onto your R foot and drop your R hip you allow that hip to come forward, rather than keeping your hips square to the front. After your second drop on the R, you bring your L hip up and over in an arch, so that, when you step/drop on the L, your L hip is now forward. There's no twisting motion in your hips, per se, in that your hips themselves are not twisting back and forth on a horizontal plane, but the drops of the shimmy are performed with your hips in a twisted position. Argh! I can feel the universe imploding. Did that make any sense at all?

To make it a true hagallah shimmy, you change the timing slightly, so that the first drop is held longer. So, on the right: step/drop (1,2), lift (3), drop (4); on the left: step/drop (5,6), lift (7), drop (8).

3/4 shimmy threads give me headache. But kudos for being brave enough to start the topic!

Originally Posted by Ainsley

I've also heard it called an up-and-over shimmy or a hagallah shimmy. As you step onto your R foot and drop your R hip you allow that hip to come forward, rather than keeping your hips square to the front. After your second drop on the R, you bring your L hip up and over in an arch, so that, when you step/drop on the L, your L hip is now forward. There's no twisting motion in your hips, per se, in that your hips themselves are not twisting back and forth on a horizontal plane, but the drops of the shimmy are performed with your hips in a twisted position. Argh! I can feel the universe imploding. Did that make any sense at all?

Without being able to compare in person - this sounds like what I was blabbing on about. Swing the hip in question up, over, and forward before doing the down/up/down business. It is the most beautiful of all shimmies IMHO, 3/4 or otherwise. I have a tendency to overdrive it and my instructor yells at me... .w.:

Just to add another wrinkle to the mix, I perform and teach it 3 different ways. The 3/4 portion is based on the timing - the down in the orientation of the emphasis. However, I teach beginning the downs from the obliques, from the legs (quads/hams), and from the glutes (oppositional). So we drill each one in class and in performance I choose which one to use based on which layers best with what I am doing at the time or based on where my weight or emphasis needs to be.

:)

I love these threads.
the way I do it is
step, weight on right leg, right hip pushed out, left hip pulled up by obliques

step left, wight on left leg, left hip pushed out, right hip pulled in and up

step, weight on right leg, right hip pushed out, left hip pulled up by obliques

Is she asking you to do a triple movent on the weighted leg? down up down?

will have to try it later tonight...

Originally Posted by Ainsley

*jumping into fray*

I don't use my glutes for the 3/4 shimmy either on the up or on the down. In both cases, the movement seems to be driven mostly from my knees with some involvement of the obliques, and I keep everything else relaxed.

I like MirahAmmal's description: lengthening the obliques is also how I try to place the emphasis on the down movement to distinguish it from an upward 3/4 shimmy.



I've also heard it called an up-and-over shimmy or a hagallah shimmy. As you step onto your R foot and drop your R hip you allow that hip to come forward, rather than keeping your hips square to the front. After your second drop on the R, you bring your L hip up and over in an arch, so that, when you step/drop on the L, your L hip is now forward. There's no twisting motion in your hips, per se, in that your hips themselves are not twisting back and forth on a horizontal plane, but the drops of the shimmy are performed with your hips in a twisted position. Argh! I can feel the universe imploding. Did that make any sense at all?

To make it a true hagallah shimmy, you change the timing slightly, so that the first drop is held longer. So, on the right: step/drop (1,2), lift (3), drop (4); on the left: step/drop (5,6), lift (7), drop (8).

3/4 shimmy threads give me headache. But kudos for being brave enough to start the topic!

I am now utterly intrigued by this description.

If anybody knows someplace on youtube where I could see this shimmy, please post a link!!

Originally Posted by zorba

Without being able to compare in person - this sounds like what I was blabbing on about. Swing the hip in question up, over, and forward before doing the down/up/down business. It is the most beautiful of all shimmies IMHO, 3/4 or otherwise. I have a tendency to overdrive it and my instructor yells at me... .w.:

I would call this a Haggalah

3/4 up or sideways is more ghawazzi than 3/4 down, IMHO.

Weeeee.......

{{{HUGS}}}

My favorite traveling shimmy...Fast Down Walk - Pigeon toed foot position/ bent knee with a slight hip twist forward on the 1 (R) down relaxed butt cheeks doing a reverb wobble in the soft tissue- powered by the quad for the more rapid 2.3 (like a triplet on zils) alternate same to left. The one I have more trouble with is the glute squeeze slower walk..cant seem to work up enough speed and keep it clean and crisp.

Holy crap...I think I just descriped the Hagallah...didnt know that was what it was called..it just felt right.

you can still do a glute driven 3/4 shimmy on the down:
stepping on the R foot, squeeze LRL (with the first L squeeze at the same time as your step), then stepping on the L, squeeze RLR...

or at least that's what i understand it to be...and when you conquer that, try waiting until your 3rd squeeze to take your step...tends to look a bit closer to the Haggala walk...

Originally Posted by tigerb

I am now utterly intrigued by this description.

If anybody knows someplace on youtube where I could see this shimmy, please post a link!!

Woo! Found one!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVSBpv5p5f0"]YouTube - Egyptian belly dance - Saidi[/ame]

The shimmy starts at 1:00. This probably isn't the clearest example of it out there, so others feel free to post alternatives!

Originally Posted by tigerb

For the last couple of classes my teacher has been trying to get us out of our "shimmy comfort zones". She is having us 3/4 shimmy with hip drops instead, i.e., step on the R foot, drop the R hip, lift it, drop it again. Opposite on the left.

I'm finding this really awkward and I'm wondering whether I'm making it harder than it needs to be. If you do this shimmy (which my teacher calls "3/4 shimmy on the down"), how do you drive the hip drops? Are you pushing with the obliques (which is how I drop my hip, usually), bending and straightening the knee, lifting the opposite hip... what?

Definitely lateral flexors - the quadratus lumborum with the internal and external obliques. Knees have to bend but they aren't doing the work - they're walking. Very relaxed.

Helps if you have the flexibility to make your hip go down on the standing leg - many people don't seem to be able to do it (mind you I couldn't walk while doing a glute shimmy either!)

If you are describing one that does not contain a twist, you drive the right hip down (if starting with R foot) by squeezing the L glute, simultaneous with dropping R hip.

Don't hate me, ladies, but I find these threads utterly fascinating. You want me to do what with what, when and squeezing where? LOL

Of course, I have yet to actually DO a 3/4 shimmy; so there's no frustration level to reckon with. *grin*

In truth, the descriptions in this thread are articulate and direct enough for even a newbie to understand the intent and at least make the attempt to complete this move, so thanks! for taking the time; especially in the face of an possible space/time collapse! *shudder* *Q, where are you?*

Miranda

I do it the way Azhia describes.
If you step down onto the right foot and lift the left hip and take your lft foot off the ground, keep it off the groung and drop the left hip and then lift it then step down on to it, you can feel the muscles that are working.
If I pidgeon toe it is different - and it hurts a bit. Is pidgeon toeing ok?

sp. left. ground.
late where I am. need bed.

Originally Posted by yellowliongrrl

you can still do a glute driven 3/4 shimmy on the down:
stepping on the R foot, squeeze LRL (with the first L squeeze at the same time as your step), then stepping on the L, squeeze RLR...

or at least that's what i understand it to be...and when you conquer that, try waiting until your 3rd squeeze to take your step...tends to look a bit closer to the Haggala walk...

Again...depends on what you want it to look like. If you want an actual Haggalla shimmy though (say...for dancing the Haggalla :-) glute-driven is too tight/high up--it should be a more earthy relaxed shimmy driven out of the legs. I like the description (...oh, now I've forgotten her screen name...sorry!) someone gave about how the knee doesn't WORK perse but it moves and is relaxed so you can walk.

I have a troupe member who'd learned her 3/4s as a glute-driven shimmy. We had to un-train/retrain her to do them leg-driven before she could perform the Haggalla shimmy properly for the Haggalla dance (and do some of the layering we do with "up" 3/4 in other dances/combos.) The upside is now she has two different ways she can do the 3/4 depending on what look she wants. :-)

I've been reading everybody's response and I think mine is a different enough to respond. First off lets separate the down hip shimmy into two shimmies. The Hagallah shimmy and a more Oriental shimmy.

The Hagallah shimmy walk:
The Hagallah is what most people seem to be talking about. They are calling it the Hagallah because that's the name of the dance in which this shimmy walk is a common principle step. Without giving the whole history of this dance, and it's prupose, the walk is sort of supposed to imitate the twitching tail feathers of a desert bird called hagallah or hagal or something like that. It's done traditionally in the hagallah with a big roman toga wrapped around the hips that in folkloric troupes turns into a little skirt and if the shimmy is done well that fabric will twist and move dramatically from side to side. Here is a good look at the costume and a very quick look at the shimmy, although in my opinion if your really great at it that skirt will go flying even more than these green dress ladies send it. Check out the red dress lady's hagallah walk - The Hagallah is second after the Eskanderia-Meleya clip:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFDFSl6z14U&feature=related]YouTube - National Egyptian Dance Troupe - Tour 2007[/ame]

If it's the hagallah walk you are after, you step one foot in front of the other, flat footed, very much with a twist. The foot stepping in front you bend the knee pretty dramatically enough to get that shimmy action. It's very loose and very much like a lot of people described above with a sort of up and over action in the hips with each step. This hagallah shimmy is very different in my mind than and Oriental shimmy done on the down.

sorry for the delay, bhuz disappeared on me 1/2 way through.

Oriental Shimmy on the down.
This is different from the hagallah shimmy in that you don't really twist at all, it's much more contained and it is more often done on the balls of your feet (releve). For me this shimmy is primarily driven by my inner thigh muscles.

As an exercise to feel what I'm talking about, stand with all your weight on one leg and do regular hip drops, then put your hand on the inner thigh of your standing (wieghted) leg and think of the action of dropping your other hip as conversely lifting with your inner thigh of the standing leg. The great thing about utilizing your inner thigh muscles is you can make the movements really sharp without using your glutes. If you add glutes on top of that it just gives you additional power. now stand on tip toe with your knees bent, soft and pliable to act as shock absorbers and take the movements somewhat and use your inner thigh muscles to drop one hip then the other. Then try and engage and use those inner thigh muscles while you do your 3/4 down shimmy. Utilizing these muscles can make a nice clean sharp controlled Oriental shimmy on the down which has a very different feel from the hagallah shimmy. If you want to layer glute squeezes on top of that, it's an option, but for me, I don't drive them from my glutes at all.

I looked briefly for a video example, but was thwarted by creative videography and Egyptian dancers that rarely do things straight forward - they all have to distinguish themselves with their own personal variations on the theme. And this step is really a theme. I didn't want to show a video and say, like this, but without that special accent, or without the layered circle, etc...

In the end the only way to keep it from feeling awkward is to practice, practice, practice. I hope I was clear. Good luck.

Originally Posted by caasious

My very first instructor had it broken down to a 3 count where you pushed "out" on the right hip, shifting the weight to right foot and lifting left foot off the ground (with bent knee), then a left hip lift and drop of "up-down"... followed by the Left hip pushing "out" and shifting weight before "up-down" on the Right hip.

the count:
R out, L up-down (1-2-3)
L out, R up-down (1-2-3)

or alternativily... if you miss the very first count, the move is just
L up-down-out
R up-down-out

I think this is generally what your teacher is trying to get you to do, except that she's having you think about the hip starting in a down position before the "up-down"

Yeah, that's how I do mine. It's the only way it really makes sense to me, and the 3 counts really help.