Thread: Rhythm Discussion

I have been discussing rhythms with several of my bellydance colleagues in the area. If you had to select 2 rhythms to teach a beginner's class, what would they be?

I say Beledi (to be able to identify the rhythm in the music) and karshlama.

Many of my colleagues say masmoudi or maqsoum.

Your thoughts?

I generally teach maqsoum and sa'idi to my beginners, since those are the ones they'll hear the most in the music I use in class (and since it always seems easier to start off with 4/4s). For more experienced beginners, we then start on masmoudi kabir and masmoudi saghir, and delve a teensy bit into the 2/4s.

Nisaa

Hands down, one would be saiidi. It is the most commonly used backbeat in all kinds of modern Arabic music, from pop to big orchestra oriental. Virtually everything these days uses it.

I focus on Egyptian style, so I would probably say basic maqsum, saiidi, and malfuf (because the intro parts of so many Egyptian oriental dance medleys is malfuf, and its syncompated and not intuitively easy to step to for students).

Oh, that's three.

Next up would be masmoudi kabir and chiftitelli (= wadah kabir? in arabic), because they are used in the slower sections of Egyptian dance music.

Sedonia

Nisaa stole my entire answer. Get outta my head, Nisaa!

Maksum family for fast (start with a maksum and then show how adding a doum at different places can make for a differeent feel in baladi and saidi, through compare and contrast), and chifti for slow.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Nisaa stole my entire answer. Get outta my head, Nisaa!

But it's so warm and cozy in here!!!!!!

Originally Posted by ssipes

chiftitelli (= wadah kabir? in arabic)

Wahda tawila, maybe??? I get mixed up on my wahda rhythms...

Originally Posted by ravenadesigns

I have been discussing rhythms with several of my bellydance colleagues in the area. If you had to select 2 rhythms to teach a beginner's class, what would they be?

I say Beledi (to be able to identify the rhythm in the music) and karshlama.

Many of my colleagues say masmoudi or maqsoum.

Your thoughts?

When I teach beginner classes, I always pick a particular song to work with for the entire 7 weeks. That way, by the end of the session, they kinda-sorta know it. Therefore, for the rhythms I teach, I choose ones that appear in that song. For example, I'm currently working with the second instrumental interlude of Nibtidi Mneen al-Hikaya (ie, the version that appears on Gems of the Middle East), so I'm focusing on walking maqsoum as the rhythm because that's the one in the song.

I don't think I would teach karsilama to beginners. I love 9/8, but I see that as more of an intermediate-level rhythm.

I focused on the saidi rhythm for a 5 week theme, because it's one of the most common rhythms. I also did a 5 week theme on the 9/8 rythm, combined with some basic steps etc. with my intermediates. It worked great, because it has such a distinctive sound they were very happy that they can clap/step in time with the rhythm.

While I think they would be disappointed if I wanted them to hear the difference between beledi/saidi because they are so much alike. I'd save 'the three sisters' for an advanced class and make a game out of it, asking them what rhythm this and that song has.

The 4/4 rhythms Baladi, Maqsoum and Saidi. If it's only two then Saidi and Maqsoum.

Saidi because it's use so commonly in Arab pop music and maqsoum because I think it would be slightly easier to move to and has other related rhythns in 2/4 and 8/4 timing ie Fellahi and Wahda Nuss.

Not sure if I would teach beginners a 9/8 rhythm. At least in this part of the world as Turkish style is not common.

I use masmoudi kabir and chiftitelli. I use them as pure drum because I find many students need to be introduced to the whole idea of dancing inside the phrase. These are clear and not too fast.

(Incidentally, I avoid using "beledi" to describe a rhythm)

Originally Posted by kashmir

I use masmoudi kabir and chiftitelli. I use them as pure drum because I find many students need to be introduced to the whole idea of dancing inside the phrase. These are clear and not too fast.

(Incidentally, I avoid using "beledi" to describe a rhythm)

Thank you for that last bit since we need to know what we're talking about to avoid passing on more incorrect info to the next generation of dancers.

I use the maksoum family, 2 masmoudis (saghir and kabir) mostly, though may stray over to a saiidi, and cifte telli. Actually for my first class I use whatever I want, whatever feels right for getting them enthused enough to return (live in a small town) and then use the maksoums/masmoudis/saiidi and cifte telli for the rest of the classes.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I use masmoudi kabir and chiftitelli. I use them as pure drum because I find many students need to be introduced to the whole idea of dancing inside the phrase. These are clear and not too fast.

(Incidentally, I avoid using "beledi" to describe a rhythm)

In a folkloric sense calling a rhythm Baladi maybe confusing since Asrha Baladi music uses several rhythms including Maqsoum, Fellahi and even Saidi as a solo phrase.

But Fouad Harraka, who has written text books on rhythm for the conservatorium in Beirut, uses the name Baladi to describe Masmoudi Sagir and seems to be widely accepted in a classical and cabaret environment.

If you have to shout out a rhythm during improvisation for a rhythm change to the rest of the band it's too hard to say Masmoudi Sagir. It's not practical.

hmm i think i need to take a rhythm workshop. maybe a drumming class. or is there a dvd i should look to get. i have a cd with many major rhythms on it that i use in class. i mostly use saidi and masmoudi for my beginners.

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

In a folkloric sense calling a rhythm Baladi maybe confusing since Asrha Baladi music uses several rhythms including Maqsoum, Fellahi and even Saidi as a solo phrase.

But Fouad Harraka, who has written text books on rhythm for the conservatorium in Beirut, uses the name Baladi to describe Masmoudi Sagir and seems to be widely accepted in a classical and cabaret environment.

If you have to shout out a rhythm during improvisation for a rhythm change to the rest of the band it's too hard to say Masmoudi Sagir. It's not practical.

I was under the impression the the "ashra baladi" was a suraya hilal construct. A sort of breaking down and rebuilding of the traditional baladi progression in a formalised manner...?

I too avoid the term baladi to describe any rhythm to my students. The term baladi is at once too ambiguous and too specific depending on your context. So while there can be a rhythm that Is baladi, as in common usage, I can't by rights teach my students that there is a rhythm Called baladi.

Sedonia: You were right... Wahda Kabir

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

I was under the impression the the "ashra baladi" was a suraya hilal construct. A sort of breaking down and rebuilding of the traditional baladi progression in a formalised manner...?

Aha! That's why I can never find anyone else that refers to 'ashra baladi'...

I Know!!!! Lol.

My teacher did some early work with Hilal... there is quite a bit of her influence in Aus... and anyways we worked on the ashra baladi quite a bit.

So later when I started questioning my Egyptian teachers and pretty much any musician I could lay my hands on about the "ashra" baladi no-one had any idea what I was talking about. I was confuzzed indeed!

That was one of my first lessons in... Knowing Your Source :-)

I think naming of rhythms also depends on who one works with and where one lives - a group of non-ethnic musicians taught in the US will understand Beledi, but if I say Masmudi Sagir, that won't necessarily fly. And, around here at least, there is more Turkish than Egyptian music heard. Speaking "American-Turkish" when it comes to music in my part of the world is a good idea, I can talk to the musicians I know, I can take drum classes and understand what the instructors talk about, and that's important for my goals. Of course, if I my focus is to go to Cairo, that would not be the most useful expertise.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

I Know!!!! Lol.

My teacher did some early work with Hilal... there is quite a bit of her influence in Aus... and anyways we worked on the ashra baladi quite a bit.

So later when I started questioning my Egyptian teachers and pretty much any musician I could lay my hands on about the "ashra" baladi no-one had any idea what I was talking about. I was confuzzed indeed!

That was one of my first lessons in... Knowing Your Source :-)

I doubt Ashra Baladi is a term made up by Hilal. A quick search on the internet shows a movie called Ashra Baladi from 1952.

Terezka Drznik started using this term recently because she is big on dancing Baladi but it was causing confusion with the Lebanese drummers who would play Masmoudi Sagir instead of going into the Q&A with the Piano Accordion or Keyboard player. If she tells them Ashra Baladi they know what she wants.

So I would bet any money Ashra Baladi is a generic Arabic term to describe the specific style of Egyptian folk dance and music.

I would take that bet. Having an Arabic movie called "ashra baladi" from 1952 obviously doesn't prove much and it certainly doesn't suggest the specific use in regards to music and dance.

I have no argument that the term exists but I don't think it is nearly as generic as you seem to believe. Ashra in arabic, I've been told, can be used in a number of ways... to count, naturally, and also as a way of saying something is tops or the best... like 10 out of 10!

I had an Egyptian muso suggest once that perhaps an ashra baladi was meant to refer to the best baladi or longest or most complete...? but that would be perhaps colloquial usage or only in isolated use rather than general.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

I have no argument that the term exists but I don't think it is nearly as generic as you seem to believe. Ashra in arabic, I've been told, can be used in a number of ways... to count, naturally, and also as a way of saying something is tops or the best... like 10 out of 10!

Well here are references to Ashra Baladi from CDs from disparate places. So the term is used generically. There is no reason to doubt it isn't commonly used. As you say the term may not be proper Arabic but is a colloquialism that at the very least musician know of and use.

MUSIC ONLY - ASHRA BALADI

tanzraum

WOMEN'S LENS: Culture: Saidi Dance

Aladdins Cave TRCD01

Belly Dancing - Best Of Belly Dance Vol. 7 Nora

Mersal :: ♫ True Tones & ♫

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

Well here are references to Ashra Baladi from CDs from disparate places. So the term is used generically. There is no reason to doubt it isn't commonly used. As you say the term may not be proper Arabic but is a colloquialism that at the very least musician know of and use.

MUSIC ONLY - ASHRA BALADI

tanzraum

WOMEN'S LENS: Culture: Saidi Dance

Aladdins Cave TRCD01

Belly Dancing - Best Of Belly Dance Vol. 7 Nora

Mersal :: ♫ True Tones & ♫

Popular usage doesn't equal correct terminology. Certainly the two terms "cool" and "hot" might be used to convey the same meaning in English slang, but it doesn't mean the actual words mean the same thing (and ask anyone learning the language as a second tongue how confusing that might be . . .). IMHO, it's our responsibility to use the proper terminologies, especially regarding rhythms, and not to succumb to the temptation to use the popular term. Yes, my drummers, especially those active in the SCA, tend to refer to masmoudi saghir as baladi and yes, I always, always, always correct them and make sure new drummers and new dancers understand that the word baladi has many meanings, but none of them refer to a specific rhythm, although it might refer to a type of rhythm or even a type of musical composition. It's confusing enough -- and once you get to working with rhythm variations it becomes almost impossible! How many different rhythm variations do you know called "walking baladi?" I can think of at least 3 chifti telli rhythm patterns, all from reputable sources. One of my drummers brought back a great Saidi variation he was taught as "Brooklyn Saidi" - great fun to play, but it confuses the heck outta those just learning to differentiate between the basic rhythms. One of my dancers came back from an ATS certification seminar having been told that maqsoum was a double fellahi! While one fill variation certainly uses the same strokes, maqsoum ain't fellahi no matter how you look at it. One is 4/4; one is 2/4 for a start . . .

Okay, rant over. sorry. Can you tell this is a "hot key" for me?

I'm totally confused now.

Is not "beledi" in the 4/4 Maqsoum family, along with Maksoum and Saidi?

How can it be both maqsoum and masmoudi -- pardon my ignorance.

Originally Posted by aziyade

I'm totally confused now.

Is not "beledi" in the 4/4 Maqsoum family, along with Maksoum and Saidi?

How can it be both maqsoum and masmoudi -- pardon my ignorance.

If you listen carefully to both the 8/4 rhythm masmoudi kebir (what most dancers call simply "masmoudi") and the 4/4 rhythm masmoudi saghir (what most dancers call "baladi"), you'll find that they are pretty much the same rhythm, only masmoudi saghir ("little masmoudi) is played at twice the speed of masmoudi kebir ("big masmoudi").

Masmoudi kebir (ie, "just masmoudi" the slow one) is an 8/4 rhythm:


DOUM DOUM tec-a tek tec-a tek DOUM tec-a tec-a tec-a tec-a tec-a tek
--1----2--and a--3--and a--4----1--and a--2 ee and a--3 ee and-a--4


Masmoudi saghir (ie, "baladi") is a 4/4 rhythm, but it has the doums in exactly the same place as masmoudi kebir, it's just played faster. The filler is abbreviated because of using fewer total counts to cover the pattern:


DOUM DOUM tec-a tek DOUM tec-a tek
--1---and--2 ee and---3--and a--4


In general, the term "maqsoum" refers to a family of 4/4 variations. There's "walking maqsoum", there's masmoudi saghir ("baladi"), etc. Maqsoum, in turn, is part of the masmoudi family.

avidly lurking and learning...

Originally Posted by kat

Popular usage doesn't equal correct terminology.

But we're talking about folkloric music here that doesn't necessarily have indigenous correct terminology in the sense that we, as outsiders, need or want to have in order to learn it.

And if we're teaching our students or learning for ourselves the ability to converse with and work with musicians, then we have to know the terms they use, even if (especially if?) it's colloquialisms, if that is what it takes.

Also, this music is from a culture that didn't originally use western music notations, so our classification of rhythms as 2/4, 4/4, etc. are to a certain degree arbitrary conventions that reflect the way outsiders intellectualize their music. You can take a piece of music written in 2/4 and rewrite it in 4/4, change the tempo, and it will sound the same. A 6/8 piece could be written in 3/4, etc. etc. This is all western thinking, and Arab or Turkish musicians may or may not have had formal western musical training.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Also, this music is from a culture that didn't originally use western music notations, so our classification of rhythms as 2/4, 4/4, etc. are to a certain degree arbitrary conventions that reflect the way outsiders intellectualize their music. You can take a piece of music written in 2/4 and rewrite it in 4/4, change the tempo, and it will sound the same. A 6/8 piece could be written in 3/4, etc. etc. This is all western thinking, and Arab or Turkish musicians may or may not have had formal western musical training.

Right!

If you "speed up" maqsoum, it DOES sound like fellahi (at one of the studios where I teach, the sound system has a pitch adjuster that allows me to do this, and it's always a big A-HA! moment for students who initially find fellahi hard to "get"). Or if you slow down a malfuf, it sounds just like wahda kabir (well, really malfuf IS of the wahda family). It seems like many of the rhythms grade into each other; we're just boxing off categories to make it easier for us to conceptualize the different points on a rhythmic spectrum.

Consistent naming and Western notations are certainly helpful for us Western teachers who are teaching Western students, but we must always keep in mind that these classifications are to some degree imposed upon a much more fluid source material.

Nisaa

Originally Posted by ssipes

But we're talking about folkloric music here that doesn't necessarily have indigenous correct terminology in the sense that we, as outsiders, need or want to have in order to learn it.

And if we're teaching our students or learning for ourselves the ability to converse with and work with musicians, then we have to know the terms they use, even if (especially if?) it's colloquialisms, if that is what it takes.

Ssipes,

I totally agree. It's about communication.

It's great that dance teachers are educating students about rhythm terminology. But to teach students that using the name Baladi is the incorrect term and not to use it is a little restrictive and potentially damaging on a long term basis.

As Hossam Ramzy once said, if you want to effectively communication and be persuasive with someone you have to communicate in a way they understand as a sign of respect. If you keep referring to a rhythm as Masmoudi Sagir to musicians that know it as Baladi then that can be seen as looking down on them and you are not building rapport.

If I walked around the US, Australia or even Britain speaking the Queen's English, people would think I'm a bit odd even though they would probably understand what I'm saying ( although when I was in the US for 1 month, 20% of the time people didn't understand me ). I would always be considered the outsider.

So if a dancer wants to build a good rapport with musicians then I would advise them to speak in a language they understand. I would teach dance students that DD--T-D-T-- is Masmoudi Sagir but commonly referred to as Baladi by musicians so if you want them to play Baladi style music you have to request Ashra Baladi otherwise they will play you a song with a Masmoudi Sagir rhythm in it.

Originally Posted by kat

I can think of at least 3 chifti telli rhythm patterns, all from reputable sources. One of my drummers brought back a great Saidi variation he was taught as "Brooklyn Saidi" - great fun to play, but it confuses the heck outta those just learning to differentiate between the basic rhythms.

Now I am jumping to a topic that I have issues with and that is that dancers and drummers are not getting taught the foundations of rhythm identification. It's very similar to the issue of only teaching school kids whole language with English. If they have never been taught phonetically as well then at a certain point they can fail to recognise words or have no idea how to pronounce brand new words they have never seen before.

I don't know why rhythms are taught only in a whole language style and never in a phonetic at all. I think both styles should be taught but phonetic needs to be first, with whole language speeding up the process of rhythm identification when doing improvisation. So the secret to identifying a rhythm is to listen to the Doum pattern. Doing that your can figure out what a rhythm is 90% of the time. The other 10% is for rhythms with the same Doum pattern and this is where you can then listen for the high tone accents eg Maqsoum and Fast Chiftitelli have the same doum pattern but different accented tak patterns.

So let's take an easy example, Masmoudi Sagir. About three versions with many variations on particalar versions.

1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
D-D-__T-D-__T-__| Basic open
DDD-__T-D-__T-__| 3 Doum open
D-DD__T-D-__T-__| Syncopated open

What ties the three versions together as Masmoudi Sagir is there is a group of Doums at the beginning and one doum in the middle.

It's important dancers and drummers learn the open versions of rhythms. For dancers, they are normally moving to the accents of the open rhythm. For drummers, they need to know the open version to then create their own ornamented variations by filling in to silences between the accents.

The most common version of Masmoudi Sagir is the Basic I've listed. So looking at variations of basic

1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
D-D-__T-D-__T-__| Basic open
D-D-k_S-D-k_S-__| Classical variation
D-D-tkT-D-tkT-__| Modern variation
D-D-tkS-D-tkS-__|
D-D-rks-D-tkSktk|
DkDktkTkDktkSktk|

So here we can see what ties all these variations is the pair of doums at the beginning and one doum in the middle. Even if you have never heard any of these variations, once you pick up the doum pattern you should be able to tell it's Masmoudi Sagir.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Right!

If you "speed up" maqsoum, it DOES sound like fellahi (at one of the studios where I teach, the sound system has a pitch adjuster that allows me to do this, and it's always a big A-HA! moment for students who initially find fellahi hard to "get"). Or if you slow down a malfuf, it sounds just like wahda kabir (well, really malfuf IS of the wahda family). It seems like many of the rhythms grade into each other; we're just boxing off categories to make it easier for us to conceptualize the different points on a rhythmic spectrum.

That is correct, just like Masmoudi Kebir and Sagir are related, so are Maqsoum and Fellahi. It was the same accent pattern but one is played at double time of the other. You sometime find apprentice drummers will play a slow fellahi when they can't play a more difficult fast maqsoum.

Other related rhythms with different timing signatures include:


Rhythm Taqsim rhythms (Sombati and wahada kebir/Fast chiftitelli and chiftitelli)
Rhomba and Bolero
Malfuf and Wahada sagir

There is a cool little midi generator for rhythms. This one is for Maqsoum. If you crank it up to the fastest tempo it sounds like a slow Fellahi

Jas's -- MIDI Hand Drum Rhythm Generator