Thread: Videotaping the workshops

We have Liza Laziza teaching us for two weeks now, I report more about my feelings about her workshops in my blog. But my actual question is about the
problem that she has caused here. She will not allow anyone to videotape anything at the class and tells that all egyptian teachers have agreed on this rule very recently to save the business. For the same reason, she says that
she does not teach choreography, because we could use it.

All other teachers we have had, starting from Aida Nour, Magdy El-Leisy, Khaled Mahmoud, Lubna Emam etc. have been teaching choreography and let us to take video in the end of the workshop, if not shooting at him/her but other students. The only exception has been Beata and Horacio Cifuentes who denied the use of the choreography but were teaching one.

I have nothing against Liza's teaching style, I can go without videos, but many others here have been disappointed and don't come to nice workshops next week. Fortunately I am NOT organizing this visit, so actually it is not my problem ( I would have agreed beforehand on written what I want) but
maybe things are changing and paperwork has to done with extra care
(and money) to get both choreo and video of it.

So my question to you are
- do you think/know all teachers have now agreed on something like this? You, who went to Nile Group, how was it there? Liza was there, too
- has anyone been at Liza's courses, is this what she normally does?
- any other ideas, I want her to stay, and people to come to her classes

The last Aziza workshop I went to in Charleston, we were not allowed to use a camera for videoing but I think some people did it anyway.

I'm really torn on this issue. I can see it from the teachers view b/c they can make money from selling their own video of the performance BUT it's nice to have something of your own to go back to when your at home and know exactly what you want to look at. Do you know what I mean?

well, i understand the no video-ing rule. even more, i LIKE it. i am by now on dozens of people's (that i dont know) video's from workshops, without my permission ever being asked. so unless people's workshop etiquette improves, please yes, no video.

(gets on soapbox, "you" is not a specifi bhuzzer but a general "you")

what happens here (belgium, france, germany, i've seen it much less in england) when it's a choreography workshop

- teacher at the end says, ok, you can now video, but not me, just the students
- more than half of the people sit down and video the few people still dancing.
- the less advanced students sit down as well cause they dont want to be videod/the only ones dancing
- out of a workshop op 40 people less than 10 are still dancing! i'm usually one of them as i dont have a camera and want to practice.

really, i think you should ask somebody to video YOU, or video one of your troupe mates and take turn videoing/dancing. it is completely rude to start taping me (i dont know you) without asking me. i DONT want to be on YOUR video, while practicing, for you then to use at home, or show to your friends. it's not a performance, i'm here to learn. the few times i've actually said so people looked at me with a "what's with the diva attitude" look. why? why dont you dance yourself then? i paid for this workshop, i want to try, stumble, and not be on your video. once i stopped midway the choreo cause i wanted to watch the instructor do the end bit and take notes, and guess what, i got angry looks cause now i "ruined" their video, and they expected me to do it well so they were all taping me. WTF!!!! nobody (one exception) also offered me to send me a copy of their tape of ME!!!

(off soapbox)

so well, i'm mostly happy when a teacher says no videoing.


choreography or not, well, i think that's something the workshop organiser should discuss with the teacher beforehand, and put it clearly on the program...

oh, and also when i AM sitting down, i'm under NO obligation to hold your camera and film you. ask one of your troupe mates, i want to watch the instructor, not look at you through a screen. yes, sometimes i'll say yes, but not always and that should be just fine. we all learn our own way, when i sit down, it's usually cause i want to watch and learn from watchting the instructor!

there, i've said it.

(breaths)

Wow! I can't believe the attitudes of other dancers described on this board! I'm so sad for you Artemisia that you had such a bad experience - I think anyone taping anyone without their permission is a bloody cheek! And as for someone giving you angry looks because you "messed up" - like you said, WTF? I'm really sorry to hear that. That sort of thing would definitely put me off going to workshops.

I personally think that if anyone should be taped, it should be the TEACHER solely. She's the one being paid (often good money) to teach. If she doesn't want to be videoed, she could give out decent choreography notes.

Beata and Horacio's policy on choreo's: (from their website - http://www.oriental-fantasy.com/engl...berrechte.html)

Legal rights to choreographies, music, videos and DVDs


Since in the recent years there has been a lot of discussion about this matter we wish to express our opinion regarding this subject.

We do agree that our choreographies be performed by those who learn them directly from us or from our instructional videos and/or DVDs as long as it is clearly announced who the choreographer is.

We do not agree:

1. That our choreographies be taught without our authorization. Can you imagine that anyone who feels like it, would teach choreographies by Balanchine, Michael Smuin, Antonio Gades or Roland Petit without legal consequenses? (Who does not know the above mentioned choreographers should question their dance education as dancer or dance teacher)

2. That our choreographies be used for Video, DVD, or web pages without our authorization. This includes also our music and video/DVD productions.

3. That our choreographies be changed and be performed as such. It is alright when an accomplished dancer wishes to change one or two movements or decides to leave out a movement which does not suit her, yet, further changes alter the character of the choreographies. This includes choreographies for soloists being altered for group dances or duets or folklor dances with traditional movements being altered in any way.

4. That choreographies which are never taught in workshops and that are not featured in instructional videos/DVDs be dowloaded from videos/DVDs for arbitrary unauthorized use.

There is a clear difference between inspiration and theft. Whoever wishes to dance a choreographie should pay for classes to those who created it. Whoever is not prepared to create their own teaching material should is simply not qualifed to be a teacher. We are glad if our students use our teaching concept and system as a guide for their own, but the teaching of our choreographies is not permited. It is ilegal and against our wishes.

We are glad if our Video, DVD and Music productions are to your liking and you chose to use them. We do not agree that:

5. See position 2) by choreographies.

6. That pirate stolen copies - that includes single tracks!!! - be copied and given away or sold to others. We invest a great deal of money, love and experience in our productions and will not tolerate such abuse. The laws regarding this matter are very clear and all legal battles have been in our favour. It has been the misfortune of companies as well as individuals who have had to answer in court.

We provide the chance for anyone to purchase our productions at reasonable wholesale prices. There is absolutely no excuse for pirating and theft.

In the bellydance scene there is a lot of complaing and nagging about not being accepted by the general public and not being recognized by other dance forms as being a legitimate art form. Perhaps the subject of legal rights is a subject that has to do with professionalism. It is time that all oriental dancers be aware of it.

If you have questions about this matter we welcome your mails or calls.

Beata & Horacio Cifuentes

As far as I know, it is pretty standard for Egyptian teachers (and possibly others) *not* to want to be videotaped at a workshop. When I took a private from Momo Kadous last year and asked if I could video, he agreed to let a friend video *me* doing his choreography, but said that contractually, he couldn't allow me to video him. (I think he might have a contract with Turquoise Int'l for exclusive video rights.)

This would appear to be a pure business decision, and a smart one: if you have plans to produce a video of a dance, or teach it elsewhere, it doesn't make sense to allow yourself to be informally videotaped because you know that some dancers will make copies, it will be circulated, etc. It decreases demand for what you're teaching, or selling on video.

However: once you have taught a choreography, or even just combinations and movement, that material should be there for the student to use (with proper credit of course). Otherwise, what is the student getting from the workshop that he/she has paid for?? So videoing a student dancing in a workshop should be OK. Just my not-so-humble opinion.

(Hope this makes sense. Taught 4 hours last night, have only had 1/2 cup of coffee so far...)

Wow Artemisia, that is horrible. I can't imagine why anyone would go to a workshop and want to record someone LEARNING a choreo. instead of watching the teacher, and than have the nerve to get mad at you.

I have no desire to video anyone (ESPECIALLY, someone learning a dance) but if I did, it woud be the instructor with her permission of course. I really don't have a problem following the rules and wishes of others even if they don't concur with my own. I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's nice to know that IF someone did want to video the INSTRUCTOR it's nice to know you can.

Artemisia, this takes the cake!! Just when I think I've heard it all, I realize that there is more craziness in the bellysphere than one could ever imagine... Maybe to make up for ruining their video, you should go to their houses, at their convenience, and tutor them!! WTF, indeed!!


"i DONT want to be on YOUR video, while practicing, for you then to use at home, or show to your friends. it's not a performance, i'm here to learn. the few times i've actually said so people looked at me with a "what's with the diva attitude" look. why? why dont you dance yourself then? i paid for this workshop, i want to try, stumble, and not be on your video. once i stopped midway the choreo cause i wanted to watch the instructor do the end bit and take notes, and guess what, i got angry looks cause now i "ruined" their video, and they expected me to do it well so they were all taping me. WTF!!!! nobody (one exception) also offered me to send me a copy of their tape of ME!!!"

Most of the seminars I've attended specify in the flyer/registration materials "no video cameras" for both seminar and show. However, most also make and provide for sale a video of at least the show (and I love, love, love those that provide video of the workshop, too). Also, I've been to workshops where the instructor either taught a choreo available commercially on one of his/her videos or had a video (low-tech) made specifically of what she was teaching which she sold at the workshop. Both of those are preferable to me to having a dozen students w/video cameras roaming around the seminar.

I do think having multiple cameras taping is disruptive -- one, done by the sponsor of the workshop, shouldn't be. I'm willing to pay a little extra for that video . . .

I'm with you, Kat. Video certainly helps with retention of the material taught! Actually, I have been so frustrated in the past with not being able to remember workshop material that when I teach workshops myself, I provide printed notes and cheap demo DVDs of my choreographies. (These DVDs help me out, too -- I choreograph so many dances I can't remember them all!)

I'm really surprised that any instructor would allow videotaping of their workshops. An instructional video is something that instructor should have a right to control (how they want to be dressed, lighted, etc) and sell.

i understand beata and horacio's policy, and where they are coming from, but no i dont really agree with all of it. i never perform other people's choreo's. i've once taught a mahmoud reda choreo cause i could not make up a better example of hagalla myself and explained to students who he is etc when teaching it. i dont remember him saying we could NOT do that.

i get inspired by people all the time. so when taking a choreo workshop from beata or horacio, or any other teacher, some of their choreo might seep into mine if i decide to ever use the same music (which i might come to love because it was explained to me so well), my own choreo might even heavily borrow from it at times, because at some points of the music i would say that what the teacher put on what absolutely superb and beyond improvement...

but i would never perform someone else's choreo i think, of course i would change it. because i might not remember everyhting, becaue their might be a move in there that i cannot do or simply dont like, because not all the moves look good on me, because the audience might be all around me and not on one side, etc etc etc. how on earth can you expect your choreo to not be changed by those who take the workshop?? i always credit it as "inspired by..." if i use it, or even just parts of it ... but i'd mix and match and make it my own, and yes, might even teach that new concoction, but would tell my students that this combo is from Horacio, while this move comes from Aziza, and that idea comes from my friend Bea.... no????? i love how most American instructors say 'look, this is my material, now please go and CHANGE it, use it, make it YOURS".

and of course i would not sit down and slow play a beata and horacio dvd, trying to copy their every move. but video's i love and watch a lot? of course combo's will slip into my own dancing, i try to learn a bit from everyone.


Artemisia

Well I think Finland and Greece have many similarities !!!! lol

Until 2 years ago when I started organizing workshops it was EXPECTED that students could video the instructor etc.

I just changed it, telling them that 90% of serious / professional teachers dont allow videotaping in the class.

About Liza (who is my favorite teacher anyway) her method of teaching, her explanation her work in class is beyond videotaping.
Anyone that pay attention in her class just LEARN.
If students have their mind that they will videotape, they dont pay the same attention at the class and they lose things that cant be videotaped.
And yes, Liza at NileGroup dont allow videotaping.

I was at the recent NileGroup and the situation with the videotaping was horrible (as I see it).
Some teachers allow videotaping some others dont, and even the ones that allow say that they want video at the end of the class.
Well guess what, a big percentance was videotaping throu the class the way they teach !!! it was so rude, and ofcourse noticeable from the teachers that were in such difficult possition to do what? say to these people to stop, or insult them? it was ridiculus.
I didnt even brought my camera at the festival this time, found it too much taking my mind of lessons that just didnt wanted to be worried about the camera, where it is etc.
But (as Artemisia said) I was found my self in the position of just wanting to sit down and see the instructor and having people giving me THEIR camera to film them!!! and also had a case of someone that after saw the video and came and complained that i didnt videotaped correct !!!!!!!!!!

If this is a decision of Egypt teachers I dont know it, but I find it reasonable for many reasons.
What we pay in a workshop is to learn something, teqnics or choreo, and if the teacher is good it's done in such way that we remember and learn it.
We are not paying for a video, and if such is the case, then the workshops sould be plus a price for videotaping.

Personaly I would prefer more teqnick workshops than choreo ones.
I find them more instructional than choreo, special at some subjects where I'm not strong. (did a Bambuti (spoon dance) choreo, and what's the point since I DONT know to dance my self bambuti? just to imitate?)

As Artemisia said I'm also an improvission dancer, but at my classes and for shows i teach choreo's, the times I've used choreo from other teachers (and all times from NileGroup) was specified to the students, was written on the programme of the show, and was also on the DVD giving credits to the teacher.
And I have here to say about they joy Khaled Mahmoud had while I show him HIS ghawazee choreo at our show in Athens, and gave him also the printed flyers with his name, and the video with his name.

Phewwwwww i think this got too long.

Maria Aya

p.s. and this goes for greek attentands to workshops also, people that dont go to a workshop because a video is not provided are simply not good in what they do

Personaly I would prefer more teqnick workshops than choreo ones.
I find them more instructional than choreo, special at some subjects where I'm not strong.

Right on sister!! I think that if classes were based more on technique than there would be less people wanting to use a camera. I can only speak from my own expierences at workshops; I see the majority of people wanting to video the choreography and NOT the actual technique.

As for any dancer who knowingly uses another dancers choreo and doesn't give credit in a stated manner is just down right tacky and rude.

For at least the last 2-3 years, the Ahlan wa Sahlan festival has forbidden videotaping in most of the workshops. I remember attending a workshop by Dina in 2003 in which people weren't even allowed to bring either still cameras or video cameras into the room while the workshop was in session.

MariaAya is right that a lot of people taped anyway, even if the teachers stopped class and told them to stop. I saw some teachers become very angry - although their behavior remained professional you could tell by their posture and facial expression they were angry. In some workshops, people who respected the teachers asked the monitors at the door to intervene, and cameras were confiscated. This upset the people whose cameras were confiscated - they argued what MariaAya said she heard from people in Greece, that because they paid for the workshop they had a right to videotape it. The whole situation was very chaotic.

I think any taping should be done at the end of a workshop with the permission of the teacher. It should be announced to the class so anyone not wanting to be taped can sit down.

If you learn another dancer’s choreo it should also be announced when you perform it. If the choreo is nearly the same but you have made changes you should say a the choroe was inspired by the teacher.

I don’t think shows should be taped. If people ask to tape the shows I put on at JoY.I say yes but you must ask permission off all the teacher taking part. The teachers generally say yes but you must send me a copy. If you have 15 or so teacher in a show it a lot of work to send them all a copy.
So people give up on the idea.

This might be worth trying this idea in workshops if you want to stop people taping.

Why should workshops or shows be taped to be passed on to students that don’t attend & pay.

It really is up to the instructor. Whatever thier personal preference.
If you want to video you must get prior approval not only from the teacher but also the event sponsor and every individual in the class must be informed as well.

Wow..... this is new. I've been to several workshops over the years but I have never seen anyone taping a video during one. I wonder if this is a regional thing?

Thanks all of you, that you gave a thought on this issue. I learned that
when organizing a visit of egyptian teacher

1. specify more carefully what are the requirements of finnish dancers. We work really hard at the workshops (any teacher can confirm this) and we need to get the most of it in form of a memo, too, written or taped.
IPR statements, as the lawyers say.

2. Also I need to define for those who take the workshops more which are their rights and what they can expect.

3. Set the payments required according to this for both sides.

4. All this means more paper work, but I do not want to have chaos when I am in charge.

However, this has not been an issue here earlier, as we have been able to
tape all workshop long (one camera attached to the teacher all the time)
with teachers like Magdy El-Leisy. Or have had a chance to tape in the end.

But now I'm not responsible for this visit, so I just try to enjoy as much as I can and leave the business and chaos handling to others.

Interestingly, at the last Aida Nour workshop I went to (and indeed the semi private that a few of us did in Cairo with her) she actively encouraged us to video the choreography at the end of the class.

when one of the dancers in the workshop complained and said she didn't want to be videoed, Aida told us it was important to video at the end of a workshop and asked 'how can anyone remember what they have learned in such a short time without videoing?' She said that if something was important you should video it to help remember.

Several other workshop teachers have encouraged us to video the choreo at the end of a workshop. If I have a camera myself, I always ask if anyone minds and if they do they go to the side of the pack so I don't catch them on video or they sit down.

I think it's a really generous thing for a teacher to do. And let's face it, it's only one run through that gets videoed - if you want to sit out for that run through you're not exactly missing much and it gives you a chance to watch and thereby learn in a different way.

I think that, now, in our technologically-invasive society (where just about everyone has a camera and a photo can be snapped of you at any moment) the rules have changed. I'd love for teachers to let me video the last few moments of their class, especially if we're learning a choreography, but I completely understand the hesitation. How regularly might it wind up on youtube, for literally the entire world to see? If you're a professional dancer, and you're having a bad day, and that gets up online how might you feel? There's a video of ME on youtube I found a while back, from me dancing in a public place and the video spends 2 minutes zoomed in on my butt. Not classy, and kind of embarrassing! I had no idea I was being taped and I also have no way to have it taken down. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a workshop and be taped without my knowledge. Kudos to those of you who tell the other dancers you're taping!

I've been to several workshops where we were allowed to tape, and several where we were not. I generally take very good notes and then, afterwards, hook up with my dance friends (one of whom has a camera) and we each perform it for posterity. There are other options, I think, so don't despair!

In my choreography workshops I provide written notes. In the end I usually split the class in two halfs to dance through the choreo with more space.
This is when I allow videotaping.
I even announce this sometimes and tell them to get their cameras ready during the break. Because the one thing I find really annoying is somebody saying: "Wait, I first have to figure out, how that thing works!" Sorry, but you should already know that when you arrive! I will not stop the whole class for somebody who wasn't intelligent enough to make herself familiar with the camera she borrowed from her neighbour...

There are classes where nobody films. Last weekend I was in Paris and none of the over 20 students had a camera. Actually, I was the only one to film the choreo in the end - yes, I even forget my own choreos if I don't film them ..g.:

I have some students who do NOT want to be on film. If they are present, I will ask those who want to be filmed to be in one half of the class and the those who don't in the other half.

I rely a lot on video for my own material, so I understand completely if somebody wants to film and I am also glad if a teacher lets me film in her workshop.
But filming is NOT a human right, and if a teacher doesn't want that, it should be respected.

I mean, I spent about 10 years of going to workshops and never filmed - and I learned something anyway. I even stopped writing down the choreos because I never looked at the notes again... I always take some combos that I really like and use those for my own choreographies.

MEISSOUN

Sunshine, you post tells that there is no such common decision among Nile roup teachers then, about not to allow taking video. Aida is one of the organizers of Nile Group and as she says as you tell, then it is up to Liza herself to decide only,
and we have to respect that (as Maria Aya says, she did to allow it in Egypt either)
But anyway, I'll try to talk to her once again before the course tomorrow, be very very carefull and friendly and open and try to let her in ease to decide that we can take the video at the last 10 mins or so. It is SO important since she is teaching something very special to her, khaleegy, and I do not know it well, need to learn.