Thread: OK I'll come straight back being awkward

In your all not so humble opinions..g.:
Just what makes a dancer, a class advanced?
Spin off from group/troupe question.

US and other perspectives?

Tribal/ATS? (difficult for any of us Brits to be advanced?)

name names.....

classifications mmmmm......,r:;

Glad you didn't leave.

Now, are you asking why would someone go into an advanced class?

If so, I would say b/c their instructor feels the have mastered the basic and intermediate level moves. They can do them on autopilot (as my old instructor use to say). I think that would go for any style of dance.

[QUOTE=Michelle75;131435If so, I would say b/c their instructor feels the have mastered the basic and intermediate level moves. They can do them on autopilot (as my old instructor use to say). I think that would go for any style of dance.[/QUOTE]
But it begs the question - what are basic and intermediate moves?

Without actually answering my own question. I'd add that an "advanced" class would be more than moves. I'd expect lots of other stuff - musical interpretation, stage craft, improvisation, creating choreographies, cultural context etc etc. I'd look for depth rather than lots of new moves. I can envisage an advanced class which could include dancers who cannot do every trick in the book - but can do what they do well and need pushing to develop as a dancer - not an athlete.

I really need to think about this from my perspective before I post too much, but I am reminded of something one of my students said to me last week that I liked.

We were talking about the jumps between classes, and why they can seem big even when a student dancer is comfortable with the movements and technical aspects. She said the jump for her from intermediate to advanced/upper-intermediate was more emotional than anything else. She knew it meant more performing...not just for events, but also just being watched more by her teacher (me) and the other students in class. She said that also meant being more emotionally vulnerable and open, something that can be intense even once a week in an urban dance studio. We went on to talk about the idea of 'the more you learn the more you realize there is to learn', which is certainly true for me even after over 16 years in this dance form.

That can be really humbling and hard, and I believe an advanced or upper-intermediate class should address that balance of being really good and up to physical and emotional challenges, and also being really eager to learn more, more, more (what my own first teacher called being a 'hungry dancer'). Upper level classes should go both broad into the possibilities of the form, and also deep into the roots of the dance.

I thought it was a really insightful comment and conversation, and have been thinking about it all week. And so much for brevity here! :)

difficult for any of us Brits to be advanced

In regard to ATS..why should it be? My dear friend Marisa Coates, director of Troup Farashe, went to Ireland last year teaching ATS workshops. They were as ready as any to learn the physical language of ATS and she had nothing but glowing reports of the women who came.

Ireland not British. /politics

I think what Liza means is that they've been doing ATS for such a short time there that they can't be expected to have mastered all oif ATS to the point where they could be called advanced. (Not to mention the fact that Carolena adds new things.

Ireland not British. /politics

Huh? Is there something I missed? Did I offend? Beg pardon.

I only meant that that I have seen troupes get damn good in just a matter of a couple of years. They evolve their own dialect of the ATS language but can hold up with any troupe that has been doing it forever. And sometimes their own dialect of ATS is stunning to behold and more dynamic than the established troupes.

Originally Posted by anala

Ireland not British. /politics

Huh? Is there something I missed? Did I offend? Beg pardon.

Zumarrad was just poing out that Ireland is an independant republic and not part of the UK. No offence taken (this time .p:: - just kidding )

I wasn't at her workshop (I'm not an ATS girl) but Marisa Coates got a glowing report here too.

So concludes my off topic post!

ok...off topic still... but help out an ignorant American...actually to be politically correct on this side of the pond - I am technically a citizen of the USA in that Americans are also North, Central and South Americans and the Canadians are having a rather quite party in our attic...but what part of the U is now UK? England/ Scotland/ Wales/ and Ireland....where is the U and whats left? Oh...dont be shocked..you know how self centered we can be!

Northern Ireland is a part of the U.K., in my understanding, but the Republic of Ireland is a separate, independent state. "United" refers to England, Northern Ireland, Wales, and Scotland.

See map.

/End hijack.

Originally Posted by anala

Ireland not British. /politics

Huh? Is there something I missed? Did I offend? Beg pardon.

I only meant that that I have seen troupes get damn good in just a matter of a couple of years. They evolve their own dialect of the ATS language but can hold up with any troupe that has been doing it forever. And sometimes their own dialect of ATS is stunning to behold and more dynamic than the established troupes.

Actually no offense (having ROI ( Republic of Ireland )blood in me) but the Irish are actually better off than the English as they have Wendy Marlett in Dublin and we have nobody of that stature. We do have some very good ATS( especially in Scotland) and tribal individuals and troupes but none as you might have in the states because of exposure time.
And What!!!!! the Irish get another great tribal dancer..this could get political!!!..g.:

Originally Posted by Nat242

Northern Ireland is a part of the U.K., in my understanding, but the Republic of Ireland is a separate, independent state. "United" refers to England, Northern Ireland, Wales, and Scotland.

See map.

/End hijack.

You got it. But Ireland and the UK have very close links. We can live in each others' countries and vote etc.and of course we are European partners.Then there's Guniness and Terry Wogan
If you are referring to both nations , you can use the geographical term the British Isles.
If like me you live in Liverpool, you are an oddity if you have no Irish blood .We are the descendents of the poor souls who ran out of the ticket money to the US.

Thanks ladies...and to think I did some Canadian baiting there and no one bit!

Originally Posted by lizajuk

You got it. But Ireland and the UK have very close links. We can live in each others' countries and vote etc.and of course we are European partners.Then there's Guniness and Terry Wogan

And Daniel Day Lewis. Good swap for Terry Wogan methinks ..l;,

Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom, but a huge amount of people in Northern Ireland consider themselves Irish, and can choose to have an Irish passport. Britain is referred to officially as the United Kingdom & Northern Ireland, and we are The Republic of Ireland (and an island nation).

Ok ok, back to topic now!

huge amount of people in Northern Ireland consider themselves Irish,

How odd!

No - they are Irish! When we achieved our independence in 1922 we had to concede the 6 counties of Northern Ireland to the British because there were a lot of powerful British landowners still there at the time. I'm not trying to get into a heated political debate with anybody, but the Irish residents of the North didn't get much of a say at the time, and as part of the agreement made between the Irish & British governments the people of the north were free to choose whatever citizenship they preferred. They have their own parliament in Northern Ireland to decide local affairs (just like in Scotland) but are under the rule of law of the UK. We should start another off topic thread lol

Zip..not a word..I am all done....ssshhhh

..l;,
I love love LOVE your profile pic by the way - since we're still off topic ..g.:

we are not...you are..... ;-)

That photo was taken by my first teacher, Wanda, at the first student hafla (i)? that I gave in my studio. It was in honor of Marisa Coates and her partner Gay when they came over to give my troupe a workshop the next day. The photo was taken while I was literally "gone" dancing to a favorite song of mine Gnossiene by Claude Chaloube (see turn up you speakers and tell me thread). I then photoshoped it into the background you see there. It is and always will be my favorite photo because - what are the odds that someone you love takes a photo of you at a time when "you " have disappeared?

:Ahappy:

Well, I guess alot needs to be concidered before answering.

• Is there more than one teacher of your style in the area?

• Have you taken classes with all of the above mentioned teachers?

• Did all of the teachers advance you through their OWN ranks (each teacher is different)

If all of those were answered yes than for your geographic area you would probably be concidered "advanced" in my opinion. ..g.:

Now, personally, when I think of an advanced dancer, I think they would be able to have great musicality, no the background of their dance style, know of other great dancers, be able to choreograph if needed and improvise. They know about other categories of belly dance.

I second Kashmir.

I'd expect an advanced class to be more about improvisation, "feel" and emotional response to the music, I'd expect it to cover stage craft and presentation, musical analysis, folk styles, history.... All the stuff we geek about here. If they were learning choreography, I'd expect it to be rich and complex, and to go by the feel of the music, NOT by count and rote. I'd expect polish in the execution of moves, good muscle use to drive moves, excellent posture and use of arms. (Well... I don't mean an advanced class has to already DISPLAY all this stuff. But this is what it would be working on)

As for an Advanced Dancer - I'd expect them to be widely knowledgeable about music and rythms; different folks styles (both music and their accompanying dance); be very confident performing in a wide range of situations, be very comfortable improvising; and for their choreographies to be telling of both a high level of technical skill *and* real connection with the music.

Them's my thoughts. ..g.: What do YOU reckon, Liz?

Originally Posted by wigglewhiz

I second Kashmir.




Them's my thoughts. ..g.: What do YOU reckon, Liz?

Mmmm I might expect someone to be able to call them selves advanced in just one style eg orientale dance or ATS.

I cannot see how any troupes in the British Isles with the exception of Rashani can come close to advanced ATS although there are very talented individual ATS dancers who have studied with the great originals.
I think we certainly do have advanced Egyptian style dancers who have spent many many years (including a long time studying and dancing in Cairo) to obtain a great style and competance that makes them worthy of the title and liable to be employed over there
But a see a rash of advanced classes by folks who... er... are good dancers but have nothing like the years under their belts you need to have emersed yourself in what is a different dance, music and culture and be advanced.
I did a workshop last year with a teacher of very high reputation here and gulp amateurish workshop and her dancing : mind blowingly mundane!
Why is it that I no way imagine I could teach anyone to an "advanced" standard yet I go to halfas and see advanced classes with technique to make you wince by any standards?
Classes for advanced standard are also so thin on the ground and inaccessable that many of us go into teaching because we have no where else to go. That I acknowledge equally that I if I have a very talented dancer ,she will have to go elsewhere than my classes or in addition to at least.
Is it a dollop of realism needed? I am also realistic that my classes keep going because 75% of my students are not and never going to be obssessed like myself. I would say out of 30+ students , I have 1 with great potential, a teenager who could learn very quick, 2 older ladies who are good but be like me and have to make do with limited outlets and 3 coming up on the rails who if they stick at it are good enough and young enough to progress and 3 who plug away just loving every minute.The rest come and go and no way am I ever going to call my class anything other just beyond basics..g.:

I take this class, which I think is a good description of "advanced"
Boston

The goals are to revisit and refine what we learned as beginner and intermediate students, and to force us to grow out of our comfort zones.

We do a lot of work on performance skills: improvisation, musical interpretation, giving a good performance when you're sick, grumpy, and hate the music, etc.

We also push hard into our weak areas. For example, most of us are AmCab focused, so we've spent the past year on Arabic selections, really picking it apart. (We spent a full class on a 20-second section from Princess of Cairo, and then revisited it the next week.)

We do revisit points of technique pretty often, but it's at the refinement level, not the learning-from-scratch level. (In addition to our weekly technique "maintenance" drill with zils.)

We also do performance critique. When we're working on something as a class (like princess of cairo) we'll each be assigned a specific section to work on and then get feedback. People can also bring their own projects for critique if they have a show/contest/etc. coming up.

We end class most weeks by improving a full routine to mystery music. Usually we all do it at the same time, with everybody doing their own thing, but sometimes we tag-team it, with one person doing each section while the rest watch.

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

I take this class, which I think is a good
The goals are to revisit and refine what we learned as beginner and intermediate students, and to force us to grow out of our comfort zones.

For context: "what we learned as beginner and intermediate students" would have covered:
- technique (mastery of the basic moves, and started with layering)
- improvisation (very early on - very little choreography in class)
- zils (ditto)
- veilwork
- drum solos
- the structure of an american cabaret routine
- usually karsilama and cane
- stage presence

Just curious - what about some of the more physically challenging moves like backbends to the floor, full splits, Turkish drops, etc? I think the general public sees someone who can do those kind of things as the most advanced, yet I think most dancers, myself included, are never going to pull those moves off, no matter how much musicality and stage presence we develop. Since I favor the more laid back Egyptian style, I don't think you need especially athletic moves to be advanced, but it does seem that the best dancers are ones who have worked to achieve a certain degree of physical strength and flexibility. Where does that fit into the advanced training?

I think those moves are definitely "advanced" moves in the sense of being physically advanced. You can and will get dancers who are not "advanced" who can do them, or could do them without too much trouble if they tried - I've got a sometime student who is Chinese, who went to performing arts school back home and studied traditional Chinese dances, and she can drop back into a bridge just like *that*, because she was trained from a very young age to do so - and also, she's still pretty young. I'm *never* going to be able to do that kind of thing for a variety of reasons - my back isn't flexible enough, my lower back has to be taken care of and I honestly think my tight hams/achilles and somewhat disproportionately long legs have a bit to do with it also. They won't bend enough to let me get down! Similarly I don't do floor, though I'd like to have the ability, but I think I'm going to need to weight train to do it because I can't lift my own body weight on my spindly arms. But if you can do it and you take all proper precautions, more power to you.

Like a lot of BDers, I started this in my 30s and it's not really safe or realistic for me, at 43, to start trying to do Turkish drops. Even my teacher, who was very athletic and very strong, and liked a bit of flash, never did Turkish drops (the ones out of the spin, not just a backbend and collapse) because she felt they were dangerous. It makes me sad enough as it is that I can't pop down onto my heels like Tito or Dina ( I can get down there, and I can get back up again, but not fast.) But I can still get stronger through my core and aim for slowly increased flexibility, and that'll do me.

I had a physio evaluation when I first started teaching, and have seen physios from time to time since, and it gave me a small wake-up call, because while as a dancer my body's got lots of "issues", as an average human of my age it's pretty good. They always remark on my spinal flexibility and apparently my ridiculously tight ham/tendon deal is better than the national average. I don't know whether that's good, or a sad indictment of how stiff most of us are.

I live in LA so I have access to a lot of really great teachers. I am also close to SD and SF so if I really want to study ATS and Fusion, I have access there as well. It's not such a stretch to jump on a plane and head up for a weekend. Hostles are cheap.

But. . .

I still find it a challenge to find really good consistant advanced classes. Tamra Henna has stopped teaching her advanced classes, so have most of the teachers here. You either have to take privates or go to a lot of advanced, Master level work shops.

When this becomes the case, I find that most dancers don't want to put in the time or effort. It's not worth it to them. Because this is their Hobby that pays not their passion. When it starts becoming way too much effort, they back down. Afterall, the GP doesn't know the differnece.

Sorry, I am a tad bit cynical here. I just saw a vid of Istar and am choking if that is what is considered advanced!

As for students. We know that only one out of 100 is going to have the desire, ability, interest and dedication to become advanced. it is a hard and rare combination. And we, as tachers which I am not one yet, would do well to simply accept that and not get too wrapped up in other peoples choices.

{{{HUGS}}}