Thread: Beata Cifuentes' video on workshop bootlegs of their musical productions

Egypt may have copyright laws, but they don't even obey the traffic laws there . . . anyone that has been to Cairo knows that :) .

Pirating seems to be a regular way of life. Hey, I even bought a DVD of Dina's dancing that I am sure was all pirated . . . but the best part for me is that they had downloaded photos I have taken of Dina to use on the cover!!! I laughed so hard when I was in that shop . . . and I told the shop owner, whom I happen to know, that they were using my photos. He said, I have nothing to do with the DVD and just selling it for friends, lol!!!

But seriously, what other ppl have told me, who regularly produce good dance-worthy music for dancers around the world (Yasmina, Outi, Leila, etc), that it costs so much money to produce the CDs (composing, musicians, studio, editing, printing, etc). If ppl continue to pirate and not buy them, then they will have to quit doing it . . . because sometimes they barely break even.

Making the music available by download might be smart in some ways, but still probably won't happen for many music producers until they recoup the majority of their expenses. They don't have large companies behind them . . . and what they do is probably more a labor of love then a profit making venture like say Amr Diab's producers.

If you buy a DVD/VCD from Over There you know damn well it's pirated. Just LOOK at it...

Originally Posted by cbarros

They don't have large companies behind them . . . and what they do is probably more a labor of love then a profit making venture like say Amr Diab's producers.

Amro Diab and his producers lose a lot of money on piracy, but they are more concerned about pre-release bootlegging than after-market copying. Album leaks are a serious problem for the music industry there, and one that they do devote a lot of effort to fighting. They also seem to have a lot of bickering about proper citations and royalties. Within the last few years, they have had a number of high-profile lawsuits about songwriters not getting proper reimbursement because artists have claimed the songs as their own ideas. It's not that Egyptians don't have an idea of copyrights--they're fighting problems higher up in the chain.

On the other hand, their entertainment companies have been slow to adopt legal media downloading. Partially this may be due to the fact that computers aren't as much a part of their world. (We're only a few versions of Windows into being able to type conveniently in Arabic script, and I still haven't seen any evidence of implementation of the promised ability to register domain names in Arabic yet--and that doesn't even address the large segment of the population without home computers and high-speed Internet access to do all this hypothetical downloading.) Still, if you look at the FAQ at the Shofta movie site (Shofha - FAQ), there is clearly an intention to steer people into legal downloads instead of buying bootlegs.

Hi everyone,
I'm back after a long time away from bhuz. I have always enjoyed Beata & Horacio's cds. I have everyone of them except the rhythm cd (which I had at one time on cassette). They do produce some of the best music out there. So sad, that they might not continue producing them.

Originally Posted by emma-bessa

I think this controversy shines a harsh light on a side of bellydance business that MANY dancers,teachers and vendors rather likes to be seen through a soft tinted lense.
Why?
Because it is a drama about respected celebrity dancers,teachers and vendors...yet it still is about us(the whole community)

What I mean is that´s about me too;
I´ve bought many,many pirated class cd:s after workshops.
This raises uncomfortable thoughs about my own choices and my own excuses for not demanding to buy&selling original music.

Am I the only Bhuzzer who bought and sold class cd:s?

Of course we all here bought and sold copied class cd:s... ...but it doesn´t mean that we have to continue doing that.

The problem is that it has been "normal" to sell and buy copies in the oriental dance community, at least since I started to dance in the 80´s (of course it was cassettes then..:)

The music was just not available for the western buyers (at least in Sweden) . And then we just continued, without thinking any more of that. Sorry, now I am speaking for myself....;) but I think many of us just didn´t think about it.

But now there is no reason to continue doing that. Horacio and Beate put a finger on a important spot (sorry if I am talking "swenglish") and made us all think one step further.
I met Katia (bellydancer from Egypt) this summer, she was really upset because she found a chinese dancer, that was actually selling copies of her rythm cd openly at her website (you could order!) Of course Katia is not planning to make any more cd:s......

If we want to listen to nice, new music in the future we just have to stop selling and buying copied music. I will start from today!

[quote]

Originally Posted by peggybundy

Of course we all here bought and sold copied class cd:s... ...but it doesn´t mean that we have to continue doing that.

The problem is that it has been "normal" to sell and buy copies in the oriental dance community, at least since I started to dance in the 80´s (of course it was cassettes then..:)

Yes, and I would go as far as to say the British dance scene would not have grown or developed without them.

We have alot of music available to us now.

Most people I know who have produced CD's dont actually make that much money from them.

Most of the time it is about publicity and making music accessible.

I tend to have my laptop and iPod with me all the time when I travel for dance events. This way, when I'm at a workshop, I can check during the break if I've got the song already. Or, if I could download it from emusic. To be honest, I haven't really done it for the ethical/legal reasons, but rather to save money - this way I just won't have to buy a whole CD every time.

they dont mean the entire cds are copied, they mean single tracks are put on workshop cds for sale, especially the talisman song.


you know what i really struggle with. we are having a show in february. this term MANY of the classes will work on choreo's for this show. i am really afraid to wholesale order 10-20 cds to sell in class. I want to. but i just KNOW i'll sell two-three copies and then they'll all copy from each other. and i dont know how to fix that issue.

i try to really only ever give students copies of songs if they are out of print/almost impossible to obtain.

i have specifically asked workshop instructors i sponsor NOT to sell any NON-original cds. it's hard to put my foot down on this.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

you know what i really struggle with. we are having a show in february. this term MANY of the classes will work on choreo's for this show. i am really afraid to wholesale order 10-20 cds to sell in class. I want to. but i just KNOW i'll sell two-three copies and then they'll all copy from each other. and i dont know how to fix that issue.

Here's a suggestion, but I don't know how well it would work: Can you make the CD a "freebie" as part of the class session, but add the cost to the total fee? Maybe get one of HMC's compilation CDs and use it for all/most of your class choreographies?

Another option is posting the iTunes or amazon link on your website, and let them download it themselves. This seems to work better for the beginning classes, when they don't yet know each other and won't ask each other for copies.

Maybe???

i have specifically asked workshop instructors i sponsor NOT to sell any NON-original cds. it's hard to put my foot down on this.

GOOD FOR YOU!!! Stick to your guns.

Originally Posted by dinavienna

Well from what they say (being able to only take this into consideration here)....From what they say there is nothing to indicate their productions are not exemplary, artist rights wise.

Yes, of course, from what they say. Isn't that what one would say in their position, though?

I admire Beata and Horacio and respect them tremendously. I'm not accusing them of anything. I have bought their music from them directly and will continue to do so. But I don't think it's quite right of them to talk about all this in absolutes and set themselves up as consistent intellectual-property purists when even they have clearly made certain exceptions along the way.

Originally Posted by Suzana

But I don't think it's quite right of them to talk about all this in absolutes and set themselves up as consistent intellectual-property purists when even they have clearly made certain exceptions along the way.

Curious minds are curious. Have they been accused of appropriating others' IP?

Here is a philosophical question: Say you have an upcoming performance and you have specified that your troupe costume will require a particular style of hip scarf. How would you feel if you overheard one student tell another at dress rehearsal that she had stolen her hip scarf off of a table at a recent workshop when the vendor wasn't looking? Would you still let her dance in the show in her stolen hip scarf?

If you want to be conscientious, you could demand that every student purchase the music directly from you or otherwise prove they bought it elsewhere with a receipt. It's probably more realistic to make sure you simply don't use any class music that can't be purchased as a one-song download. Most people can afford the cost of a single song, it's a smaller musical commitment (for people who use that excuse), and at least you are minimizing the theft by the ones who don't think bootlegging is wrong.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

i have specifically asked workshop instructors i sponsor NOT to sell any NON-original cds. it's hard to put my foot down on this.

I would like to add a word as a music producer here... I was horrified when I found one of B&H songs on a Randa CD I bought at her recent workshop. I know how much it takes to produce that music. Unless people call out the "stars" doing it, nothing will change. High profile offenders are the worst.

YouTube will pull any clip with a copyright question to it, for fear of a lawsuit. B&H need to register themselves with YouTube as content owners and then one email will cause the offending clip to be muted. No lawyer or lawsuit required.

Unless producers make back their investments they can't afford to continue. But the current situation is partially B&H's fault - for having waited so long to offer their music on legal download sites. Many times I read that people were looking to legally download / buy their music but could not find it. Return on Investment takes being involved in the marketing and sales of a product. Also protecting copyrights. One high-profile lawsuit will go a long way to discourage pirates. Germany has strong laws. When proven pirates come to Europe or the USA and sell, they risk severe penalties, including their entrance visas revoked.

Just my 2 cents.

Adding the cd price to the class isn't realistic. And I am guessing about half my students have never downloaded a song.

I just try to make em buy CDs. But I don't sell em. Not originals and not copies.

I have been guilty of giving them copies of stuff for free. On a very limited they really need this song for class or an upcoming show base. This term we are not going to do that and get everyone a sheet with the track info and cd and download info

for workshop teaching when traveling myself I have been looking into buying wholesale to sell.

The problem I've had in the past is that the workshop or class teacher has been either unable or unwilling for whatever reason to tell the students the name of the song, CD artist etc.

This has happened to me more than once in a choreography workshop; I was then left in the very difficult position of either risking wasting my time and money to a certain extent on paying to learn a choreography and not knowing where to find a legal version of the song and feeling very frustrated as a result.

I've bought pirated CD's for this reason in the past and have been really unhappy about having to do it.

Originally Posted by nikkiraqs

The problem I've had in the past is that the workshop or class teacher has been either unable or unwilling for whatever reason to tell the students the name of the song, CD artist etc.

Speaking of things that we shouldn't put up with from workshop instructors... There is no excuse for not knowing where you got your music. If you are teaching a workshop and charging premium tuition for your expertise, you should be choreographing to an identifiable piece of music from a legitimate source that is available for students to purchase legally. Not telling us the name does not make up for not having proper licensing to use it. Not knowing Arabic does not preclude you from hiring a translator to read the label on your recording for you.

Amen, Tourbeau. You are definitely preaching to my choir ...

I would also add that I - and many others - offer wholesale prices to workshop instructors using our music. [I have had several come to me, asking. Others say they mention where they got the music - my zar album in particular, or Shareen al-Safi with my drum solo album. And everyone knows Artemis sells my stuff.]

I only mention this as an example, not as a plug. Most copyright holders in our little world are happy to work with instructors, as long as the price is right. 50 / 50 is fair. Pirating is not.

Perhaps the instructors with mystery music don't really want their students to practice what they preach - or worst case scenario - they don't want to share their income.

I just have to say it! In my case it was the well known male Egyptian master teacher that Horacio mentioned in his youtube video. At a much later date, I bought a stack of Oriental Fantasy CD's and found the piece of music used for the choreography, so I was happy I had a legal copy of the music.

I was more than a little bit annoyed at the workshop instructor for putting students in such an difficult position in order to substantially line his own pockets.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Speaking of things that we shouldn't put up with from workshop instructors... There is no excuse for not knowing where you got your music. If you are teaching a workshop and charging premium tuition for your expertise, you should be choreographing to an identifiable piece of music from a legitimate source that is available for students to purchase legally. Not telling us the name does not make up for not having proper licensing to use it. Not knowing Arabic does not preclude you from hiring a translator to read the label on your recording for you.

I agree with all of this in principle.

There is however music that I own which is written in Arabic and just says Saidi! ..g.: I bought these tapes in Luxor about 12 years ago but I have never heard music like it prodiced on CD as it is generally not a popular type of purchase.

I also have some live night club and wedding performances I use for my Sha'abi workshops as most of this particular music is almost impossible to get hold of.

This is the style I focus on rather than the 'street dance'.

What you generally get in Egypt is a whole album of a particular Sha'abi singer or a very over produced studio version.

I have been looking into recording the fabulous band in a friends nightclub in Cairo to produce a CD of this type of music with the live sound and atmosphere.

It is these places most of my learning and studying has taken place. There is a big difference to what goes on both musically and dance wise..

I totally understand where B&H are coming from and completely support their stance. However I feel very sad about the overt naming and shaming. I know Khaled very well and he is one of the kindest, most generous and thoughtful people I know.

I'm absolutely sure this is a 'cultural' thing - it's what is normal in the country he was brought up in. And all the Egyptian stars do it without thinking about the effect of their actions. I think it is probably up to us as colleagues/students/friends to try and encourage the Egyptian dancers not to do it.

Originally Posted by CharlotteDesorgher

I totally understand where B&H are coming from and completely support their stance. However I feel very sad about the overt naming and shaming. I know Khaled very well and he is one of the kindest, most generous and thoughtful people I know.

I'm absolutely sure this is a 'cultural' thing - it's what is normal in the country he was brought up in. And all the Egyptian stars do it without thinking about the effect of their actions. I think it is probably up to us as colleagues/students/friends to try and encourage the Egyptian dancers not to do it.

I'm not sure that it is a cultural thing, because I have encountered several Internationally known American workshop teachers who have done exactly the same thing.

I completely agree that Khaled is lovely, but I hope that he will stop selling bootleg cd's now that it has been brought to his attention.

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

I agree with all of this in principle.

There is however music that I own which is written in Arabic and just says Saidi! ..g.: I bought these tapes in Luxor about 12 years ago but I have never heard music like it prodiced on CD as it is generally not a popular type of purchase.
..

I have a similar thing. I teach Nubian and I found a fabulous CD by someone called Mohamed Abo El Sheik. I use it all the time when I teach Nubian workshops.

Workshop students are always asking me where they can buy the music I use and I've looked all over the Internet but can't find anything about him or his music. Last time I was in Cairo I thought I'd buy loads of the CDs so I could sell them. But it's not available any more and there's nothing else by him available. So reluctantly I've started to copy my version so at least people get to hear, and dance to, his fabulous music.

Originally Posted by CharlotteDesorgher

I totally understand where B&H are coming from and completely support their stance. However I feel very sad about the overt naming and shaming. I know Khaled very well and he is one of the kindest, most generous and thoughtful people I know.

I'm absolutely sure this is a 'cultural' thing - it's what is normal in the country he was brought up in. And all the Egyptian stars do it without thinking about the effect of their actions. I think it is probably up to us as colleagues/students/friends to try and encourage the Egyptian dancers not to do it.

He is absolutely a wonderful person, but I think what hurt B&H so much was that they had actually made a deal with him, given him cd's for free as a gift and then a deal about getting more for half price just for him. If I had a business partner which I had made such a deal with I would also be very hurt and disappointed in learning that the partner just copied and sold my work without giving anything back.

Yup. Same feeling here. Uncomfortable situation overall.

Originally Posted by CharlotteDesorgher

I totally understand where B&H are coming from and completely support their stance. However I feel very sad about the overt naming and shaming. I know Khaled very well and he is one of the kindest, most generous and thoughtful people I know.

I'm absolutely sure this is a 'cultural' thing - it's what is normal in the country he was brought up in. And all the Egyptian stars do it without thinking about the effect of their actions. I think it is probably up to us as colleagues/students/friends to try and encourage the Egyptian dancers not to do it.

Ditto.

I didnt watch the video when the thread started as I have no merchandise by B&H.

I did not realise that people had been named and shamed.

I can see why people become frustrated etc. but I personally do not think this is the way to go about it.

Khaled is contactable by email, telephone and other means.

It is a private issue and should remain that way.

The internet, and facebook in particular, is increasingly becoming a tool for personal grudges, accusations and comments etc.

We can discuss issues in principle, but without knowing any of the real facts.. we should butt out. Reputations are at stake here.

Originally Posted by Serpentine

. When proven pirates come to Europe or the USA and sell, they risk severe penalties, including their entrance visas revoked.

Just my 2 cents.

Most of what you said about ROI is what I have heard from other dancers producing music in Egypt (and someone I know who went to Egypt to produce 3 high quality instructional DVDs and I think has barely broken even while ppl post it on the internet) . . . if ppl don't support these dancers by buying their music, soon we will be left with nothing new of good quality. I've relished having this new music even as I am delving in to old music with lower quality recording levels.

But, I will point out . . . if visas are revoked for the "pirates", we will likely have NO dancers able to get into the States to teach workshops. I won't name the names . . . ,r:; . . . but "educating" them will take awhile.

Having said that, I have to admit that I will buy these at times because I don't know where to get the music otherwise. And, frankly, I think it is a bit disgusting that they charge $15-$20 for bootlegged copies . . . and most times, I only need ONE song. Think of the profit they make from selling something they don't have rights to produce.

And if I decide I am going to perform to something, I will attempt to find a source for purchase . . . but usually I am not performing someone else's choreography and will select my music from my own library of purchased originals.

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

There is however music that I own which is written in Arabic and just says Saidi! I bought these tapes in Luxor about 12 years ago but I have never heard music like it prodiced on CD as it is generally not a popular type of purchase.

I understand what you are saying, but you are not necessarily typical of what I was referring to. I have been to workshops/special-guest-instructor classes with dancers who know no Arabic, and randomly bought a CD from a vendor at a workshop, or perhaps from another teacher at a workshop, and just didn't have a clue how to read it. "I dunno. Somebody told me it was Amr Diab" is not the defense you are trying to use. You would know if you could know.

OTOH, when you think about professors in college, sometimes they have their hearts set on using out-of-print textbooks. Maybe they put the book on reserve in the library. Maybe they copy (either with or without permission) sections of the book to distribute to the class. And sometimes, they give up and admit that no matter how great that book might have been, it's still out of print, which is essentially useless to a room full of students wishing to buy it, so they go with their second choice.

What you generally get in Egypt is a whole album of a particular Sha'abi singer or a very over produced studio version.

There is certainly a range of recorded sha'abi music out there. On one end, there is the no-expense-spared stuff by top names like Saad and Hakim, then guys like Shiko who have a record deal with a label like Mazika and a budget to make a few videos (but have essentially no name recognition outside of the ME), down to people like Mohamed Ali who put out records without major label support, and then there is the whole group below them of singers who may never see the inside of a real recording studio. How low are you going for your class music? Online, I rarely come across people who don't manage to put out some kind of record, but then, I'm not usually trawling Facebook or MySpace for below-the-radar singers' pages. I have found some Arabic rap that way, and I assume there are DIY sha'abi singers distributing their material the same way, but if you don't know names, how do you stumble across them?

As far as use in class, is the solution to explain to students that you really want them to hear this music, even though you know they can't buy it, or to go up a tier to the party singers who can afford to make records but just aren't that famous? I've never tried to contact any of these guys to know if they'd be up for shipping their CDs abroad. Presumably if you did contact them, they wouldn't object to having their music taken to a larger audience. (I can't imagine they'd refuse to let you buy a whole case of their homemade CDs at regular price.) After all, they wouldn't be recording if they didn't want people to hear and enjoy their music.

i can understand why this happened . their stuff is very over priced ! it is also not sold in US dollars....when you place an order on a credit card with most over seas venders, they sit on it a bit to wait till the cross over is higher...so, you pay more and have to wait.

Originally Posted by zamora

i can understand why this happened . their stuff is very over priced ! it is also not sold in US dollars....when you place an order on a credit card with most over seas venders, they sit on it a bit to wait till the cross over is higher...so, you pay more and have to wait.

Uhm... I buy a lot in foreign currency, and since I object to having a credit card myself for various reasons, I buy from friends' and relatives'. Hence why I closely observe what you are billed in paypal or the secured system, and what is one th credit card bill a month later (to be sure I reimburse 100% correctly). Once your payment goes through, say via paypal, they give you the day's exchange rate plus value of the day in your currency. This is what you pay for, everything else would be a credit card company mistake. It is like a physical purchase, unless you or the seller cancel the transaction and make a new one on a different day (which you would need to agree to), the rate is guaranteed and fixed by the payment system. Sellers cannot manipulate currency rates, what applies to your credit card bill is the paypal exchange rate of the day.