Thread: Beata Cifuentes' video on workshop bootlegs of their musical productions

Interesting video (unfortunately in German):

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH9Hjx9hawo&feature=sub]YouTube - CD-Verkauf von Raubkopien durch internationale Bellydance-Lehrer[/ame]

Beata talks about how production of one cd costs them about EUR 30,000. In the past, after 2-3 years the albums would break even; their latest (and in her opinion best) album Talisman has not even brought 50% of the production costs after several years. At the same time Talisman is all over the internet, in youtube videos by Russian, Japanese, American etc dancers.
International workshop teachers repackage their songs and sell them as their workshop cds.
Khaled Mahmoud apparently is one of the workshop teachers who she said she confronted about the problem of use of their songs (she shows their original cd, and his copy with his own photo on it, no information on the artists, recordings, etc they have in their booklet). He says Lubna Iman, Mohammed Khazafi and others do the same. Not a very valid reason to state according to Beata. Also he, according to her, said he had consulted a UK lawyer who had told him it would be "too expensive" for them to sue him. Needless to say she is disappointed in him.

She asks people attending workshops and sponsors of workshops to demand the use and sale of original albums to help artists producing music at high costs. "Because it is the right thing to do."

I do not know Beata, just saw this on her channel, found it interesting and thought I'd share it here in minimalist translation. I love their music, especially Talisman, from what I have heard on youtube. It is a pity they may not produce for sale anymore after the productions that have already been produced for financial reasons.

Dina. I'm confused about something. I know it's from a different forum, but you were once very vocal about defending the Eastern European students who were pirating bellydance dvds. Your point seemed to be that because their economies were so bad they could not afford to pay the going price for bellydance dvds, so it wasn't hurting any sales if they pirated them.

But then you say "Most people who download something precisely would not have purchased that product any time soon." So that IS hurting sales.

Are we killing our music and DVD prod... - Belly Dancing - the Shira.net Tribe - tribe.net

Beata an Horacio have joined the ranks of people who are no longer producing media because they can't make back their initial investment. BECAUSE people are pirating their stuff -- which you seem to think is okay, because those people wouldn't have bought it anyway -- ??

I see a lot of younger dancers who grew up with the internet and think all information should be free. If they have an illegal copy of something, they ARE NOT going to replace that with a legal one. That thought doesn't make sense to them. It's their generation, but we CAN change how they think -- but we have to stop defending piracy as though it's a victimless crime. WE dancers are the ultimate victims, because of what we're losing.

Speaking here as one of those younger dancers...many of my peers don't seem to equate illegal downloading with any sort of actual crime. I've never illegally downloaded anything in my life and wouldn't dream of doing so, because both of my parents are professional photographers and intellectual property is what helps me with college. I know its wrong to steal. However, a lot of people don't have such an obvious example of how illegal downloading and piracy effects actual people, not just big corporations.

I'm so tired of seeing people selling pirated DVD's, saying it's okay to download CD's just because they aren't readily available, or looking for someone to burn them a copy of a CD. Good on Beata and Horatio for going after people who pirate their stuff. I wish more people were willing to defend their property.

I also applaud them for putting some of their CD's up for MP3 download, I hope they do the rest of them.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Dina. I'm confused about something. I know it's from a different forum, but you were once very vocal about defending the Eastern European students who were pirating bellydance dvds. Your point seemed to be that because their economies were so bad they could not afford to pay the going price for bellydance dvds, so it wasn't hurting any sales if they pirated them.

I translated Beata's view here, and tried to make that clear by adding "in her view" etc. I tried to not bring my own opinion in, but share what I thought was a pity to be available in German only.
Also if I remember the discussion correctly: My entire point was I purchase music, but I do not throw stones at people who, as university graduates, earn the equivalent of 400 euros (which was the case when I worked alongside these young graduates in Romania and Bulgaria some years ago - the situation is improving slightly, although there is backlash due to the economic crisis).

I still stand by what I said that I as an individual who's been luckier will not throw stones at people who live on much, much less.
I never said pirating was "right", I said people in Western countries with decent living wages may not be in the position to judge others who have not been that lucky. None of the people I was not defending, but refusing to throw stones at, was making money of piracy, though.
Here people are willing to spend money (and if what she says is true spend around $20 for the pirated music, which should be close to what one would have to pay for their original albums, too), and obviously able to - but it does not go to the producers.
Quite a different situation for me. And I still do not throw stones at people who earn net income about 10% of what I earn for very similar to the same work.

Perhaps B&H need to take someone to court to set an example. I don't see the behavior stopping on its own, and as long as teachers are telling students it's okay to bootleg music, it's going to keep happening. I personally won't buy "class compilation CDs" like that, and it infuriates me when teachers use music that is difficult for students to buy otherwise. If that means you have to pick a different, more readily available song for your class choreography, then do it. If that means you need to invest in a box of another dancer's licensed CDs to sell at your workshop, then set up a deal with their distributor. If it means that B&H have to acknowledge that digital distribution and its piddling $0.99 a song is the way that most music gets sold these days, and not hard-copy $20 CDs, then they need to adapt their future projects to turn a profit under those constraints. There are some people who have no regard for copyright integrity, but most folks want to do the right thing. It's quite simple: the easier it is for students to buy music legally, the more likely they are to do it.

Originally Posted by aziyade

I know it's from a different forum, but you were once very vocal about defending the Eastern European students who were pirating bellydance dvds. Your point seemed to be that because their economies were so bad they could not afford to pay the going price for bellydance dvds, so it wasn't hurting any sales if they pirated them.

I almost hate to go here, but are these Eastern European dancers performing in rags? If you are so poor that you cannot scrounge up $0.99 cents for a legal download of your music (and B&H are slowing getting on board with the individual song downloads), you need to find a cheaper hobby. I don't throw stones at a starving man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his hungry kids, but I've got a nice big rock aimed at any dancer who splurges on costumes and steals music because "she can't afford to buy it legally." I feel like every teacher in the world ought to have a sign on the wall of their studio that says, "If you can find the money to buy that new costume, you can find the money to buy legal copies of your music. You can dance in street clothes, but you can't dance without music. GET YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT."

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I almost hate to go here, but are these Eastern European dancers performing in rags? If you are so poor that you cannot scrounge up $0.99 cents for a legal download of your music (and B&H are slowing getting on board with the individual song downloads), you need to find a cheaper hobby. I don't throw stones at a starving man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his hungry kids, but I've got a nice big rock aimed at any dancer who splurges on costumes and steals music because "she can't afford to buy it legally." I feel like every teacher in the world ought to have a sign on the wall of their studio that says, "If you can find the money to buy that new costume, you can find the money to buy legal copies of your music. You can dance in street clothes, but you can't dance without music. GET YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT."

Awesome.

Five minutes ago I watched the video in english, with Horacio speaking.
Here it is:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVGboCdCkZ4&feature=channel]YouTube - Music Pirating by International Bellydance Teachers[/ame]

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I almost hate to go here, but are these Eastern European dancers performing in rags? If you are so poor that you cannot scrounge up $0.99 cents for a legal download of your music (and B&H are slowing getting on board with the individual song downloads), you need to find a cheaper hobby. I don't throw stones at a starving man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his hungry kids, but I've got a nice big rock aimed at any dancer who splurges on costumes and steals music because "she can't afford to buy it legally." I feel like every teacher in the world ought to have a sign on the wall of their studio that says, "If you can find the money to buy that new costume, you can find the money to buy legal copies of your music. You can dance in street clothes, but you can't dance without music. GET YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT."

:) That wasn't about performing dancers in elaborate costumes. It was about the absolute beginner dvds which at the time were up on torrent platforms, which have in the meantime all seen their doom arrive..

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I feel like every teacher in the world ought to have a sign on the wall of their studio that says, "If you can find the money to buy that new costume, you can find the money to buy legal copies of your music. You can dance in street clothes, but you can't dance without music. GET YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT."

True. :)

That's good that they are calling out the pirates. What Horacio says is true. Teachers create CDs from music they "liberate" from the internet and then sell these CDs at their workshops. I would rather buy from the source than get a crappy copy of these songs.

Originally Posted by jocelyn

Speaking here as one of those younger dancers...many of my peers don't seem to equate illegal downloading with any sort of actual crime.

Speaking as someone who's got a few years, this is not a new opinion. I've got tapes going back decades from teachers which are 100% illegal, and having much the same reasoning behind the activity. And, from discussions with dancers in other forms, it's not just this dance style that has had these issues.

There are issues here around the ability to produce music, and the struture needed for professional production, that are too dense for me to go into here. Yet I do want to forstall the "darn youngin's" as a defense; much of this is about the way technology has changed our interactions with music, not how we've valued music in and of itself, in my experience.

My first thought on watching this video is that unless one is absolutely certain that one's own releases are entirely free of infringement issues, taking such a forceful public position on this could ultimately prove embarrassing. One risks appearing hypocritical, if not downright dishonest.

Rereading my comment makes me sound confrontational, and I didn't mean for that. :/

I also didn't mean to imply anything about age being a defense -- I just mean we have a whole generation of people who have a different paradigm regarding the sharing of information. If someone doesn't point out that piracy is destroying the economy of our niche market, I just don't think they're going to see it.

Thank you for the Horacio link.

Originally Posted by Suzana

My first thought on watching this video is that unless one is absolutely certain that one's own releases are entirely free of infringement issues, taking such a forceful public position on this could ultimately prove embarrassing. One risks appearing hypocritical, if not downright dishonest.

I totally agree with this!

Horacio Cifuentes has my vote - no more workshop or class bootlegs for me (like I need an excuse - HATE those unidentified tracks. ,m::).

Originally Posted by Suzana

My first thought on watching this video is that unless one is absolutely certain that one's own releases are entirely free of infringement issues, taking such a forceful public position on this could ultimately prove embarrassing. One risks appearing hypocritical, if not downright dishonest.

Well from what they say (being able to only take this into consideration here): They share their creative vision with a composer who then proposes things, they give their ok or alternating wishes, the composer goes and writes the music. Then they are involved in the production process with fine studios where the instrumental parts are recorded and then mixed.
Credit is given to musicians, composers, studios along with recording date as Ms. Cifuentes shows in one of their Talisman booklets.

This sounds like they have a completely white vest in their sphere of influence. Like with any outsourced activity of any producing or manufacturing entity, their contractual partners could do wrong (like the composer could theoretically copy from someone else, the studio could neglect to name some musicians etc), but these things would be out of their reasonable sphere of influence unless something of the liking became known to them..

From what they say there is nothing to indicate their productions are not exemplary, artist rights wise.

I think this controversy shines a harsh light on a side of bellydance business that MANY dancers,teachers and vendors rather likes to be seen through a soft tinted lense.
Why?
Because it is a drama about respected celebrity dancers,teachers and vendors...yet it still is about us(the whole community)

What I mean is that´s about me too;
I´ve bought many,many pirated class cd:s after workshops.
This raises uncomfortable thoughs about my own choices and my own excuses for not demanding to buy&selling original music.

Am I the only Bhuzzer who bought and sold class cd:s?

You are right on the mark...I am guilty of this as well...
Absolutely not, the only one that is...
I have also given as much away for free...not mine to do either...I have not done it in a long time & I find that most of the students today want to buy their own CDs, I just have to tell them exactly where to get it from...

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

Horacio Cifuentes has my vote - no more workshop or class bootlegs for me (like I need an excuse - HATE those unidentified tracks. ,m::).

I am horrifed. I have so much respect for both the Cifuentes and Khaled. I have bought CDs after workshops from Egyptian teachers but always assumed that they had "obtained" the tracks in Egypt by whatever means. To copy someone else's production wholesale..I assume this is what Horacio is sayng...and repackage is unethical to say the least

Originally Posted by emma-bessa

Am I the only Bhuzzer who bought and sold class cd:s?

No sales, but have definitely purchased class and workshop cds..

Originally Posted by lizajuk

I am horrifed. I have so much respect for both the Cifuentes and Khaled. I have bought CDs after workshops from Egyptian teachers but always assumed that they had "obtained" the tracks in Egypt by whatever means.

Likewise. It is very sad to see this made so public. All I can think of is that if copyright law is not such a big deal in Egypt (I have no idea) it did not occur to these teachers that there was a problem.

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

Likewise. It is very sad to see this made so public. All I can think of is that if copyright law is not such a big deal in Egypt (I have no idea) it did not occur to these teachers that there was a problem.

Unfortunately, it seems B&H aren't having as much of a problem in Egypt as everywhere else, which means it is more of an issue of "disregarding the facts" than "not understanding." Sometimes teachers think they are doing their students a favor by giving or selling them "mixtapes" so they won't have to buy a stack of separate CDs. Students often ASK teachers to do this. Building a music library can be expensive, but it is a mandatory educational expense. At least now, with digital downloads becoming more prevalent, students can't hide behind the excuse of not wanting to buy a whole CD for one song.

As far as copyrights in the Middle East, singers make most of their money off concerts, personal appearances, and ringtones (which are controlled by the mobile phone industry like they are here). Bootlegging media isn't seen as much of a problem, to the point that bootleggers will proudly brand their products. Rotana has tried to fight this by putting holographic seals on their releases, but if consumers don't care that they're not buying a "real" product, it comes down to law enforcement prosecuting the sellers.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with Western teachers bootlegging BDSS CDs for their students...

I agree B&H are not talking about problems in Egypt, but those are specifically Egyptian teachers being named and shamed.

I'm absolutely not defending it, but if bootlegging was no big deal to some of these teachers before they went international, and then people queue up to buy at the big workshops and nobody says anything, they might not even realize there was any problem until it bites them in the behind.

ITA that in most cases in the West it is more disregarding the facts than total ignorance of the issues or not understanding.

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

Likewise. It is very sad to see this made so public. All I can think of is that if copyright law is not such a big deal in Egypt (I have no idea) it did not occur to these teachers that there was a problem.

I would imagine that is so.
I am trying to work out wether or not Horacio means that one track has been copied or an entire CD. Now I know the former is also wrong also but workshop teachers have been compiling CDs forever and we have been buying the forever and it won't occur to those not so familiar with /concerned with copyright issues.

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

I agree B&H are not talking about problems in Egypt, but those are specifically Egyptian teachers being named and shamed.

I'm absolutely not defending it, but if bootlegging was no big deal to some of these teachers before they went international, and then people queue up to buy at the big workshops and nobody says anything, they might not even realize there was any problem until it bites them in the behind.

ITA that in most cases in the West it is more disregarding the facts than total ignorance of the issues or not understanding.

Again I agree...it's a case of what you are used to. Making your own compilation is a favour to students as well as a money-spinner and was/is common practise in workshops. When I first started teaching I compiled a CD of different. styles of music..most tracks were from CDs bought in North Africa. I didn't sell it..students brought in blank CDs. I don't do it any more as I became aware even this is illegal. And anyway my CD drive has gone and got broken on my PC,r:;

I haven't seen any of the bootlegs B&H are objecting to, so I don't know whether they are partial copies or full copies of their recordings. Either way, Horacio appears to be under the impression that he had arranged a deal with Khaled Mahmoud to distribute their CDs, and Mahmoud did not abide by those terms. I suppose it is possible that Mahmoud misunderstood the arrangement, but making your own copies of another dancer's CD with your own packaging still seems awfully presumptuous to me.

One has to wonder if the shoe were put on the other foot, how would these teachers feel if they had made a CD or DVD, and B&H started copying and selling their work behind their backs? Somehow, I suspect the spirit of sharing would evaporate pretty quickly.

Originally Posted by Julsie

I have also given as much away for free...not mine to do either...I have not done it in a long time & I find that most of the students today want to buy their own CDs, I just have to tell them exactly where to get it from...

The last years all the legal downloading sources made it easier to just mail out a list of the training+choreo music though
*thumbs up*

I'm not condoning it, but not every country can legally download from every website. The only place I can download from is iTunes, and not everything is on there.

Belly dance has a long, LONG history of bootlegging, largely because resources were not available. Every dancer I spoke to here who had been dancing in the early 90s and earlier worked off mystery tapes, and bought copies of videos that had lost all their colour because they'd been copied so many times. It used to cost literally hundreds of dollars to buy an instructional.

Things have changed so much thanks to the internet, but the concept of "copyleft" is also much more strongly entrenched.

It's my understanding that copyright as we know it does not exist in Egypt.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I haven't seen any of the bootlegs B&H are objecting to, so I don't know whether they are partial copies or full copies of their recordings. Either way, Horacio appears to be under the impression that he had arranged a deal with Khaled Mahmoud to distribute their CDs, and Mahmoud did not abide by those terms. I suppose it is possible that Mahmoud misunderstood the arrangement, but making your own copies of another dancer's CD with your own packaging still seems awfully presumptuous to me.

Well, I think it is not mentioned in Horacio's English clip, but Beata specifically said after a long time of non-response Khaled Mahmoud said he'd consulted a UK lawyer who said it would be "too expensive for them to sue him". Now that is something to say to a colleague and producer of the music you use in class and sell to students (supposing it happened exactly the way Beata tells the story) - and something defying the "misunderstanding" interpretation, too.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

It's my understanding that copyright as we know it does not exist in Egypt.

I had been under this impression,too, until someone here on bhuz once posted links to translations of Egyptian copyright laws. They were not awfully old, so I guess the idea "there are no copyright laws in Egypt" comes from a now outdated legal situation.