Thread: Femme Fatale: How To - Makeup, Hair, Accessories Step-by-Step, with Jeniviva

It's retro, it's vintage, and it's hot - well what isn't hot when Jeniviva is involved...



Bhuz members will remember Jeni from World Dance New York's Gothic Bellydance and Gothic Bellydance: Revelations DVDs.

Jeniviva is back to teach you how to achieve THREE popular Femme Fatale looks: Victorian Vamp, Flapper Fatale, and Gothic Lolita.

We're taking pre-orders for Femme Fatale right now at worlddancenewyork.com and worlddancenewyork-worldwide.com ... the official release date is January 25th, but I think we may actually have this DVD in the market so much sooner that it could actually be a Christmas present. Depends on the logistics. Stay tuned, I'll let you know.



OK: Here's the plan:
1. Get this DVD...
2. Learn how to do these looks...
3. Wait for next Halloween...
4. Win first prize! :) :)
--Scott

WOW Another amazing WDNY purchase I MUST have!!!!! Over the last 6 months or so I have purchased very nearly every single WDNY dvd available and I can hand on heart say ive never been disappointed. I totally recommend each and every one, they are just the best. Cant wait for this one now and Fayzahs new dvd looks just awesome!!!!!!!!

The finger-wave tutorial looks tempting as I'm still struggling with that on myself, but the glimpse and brief description of her take on "Gothic Lolita" seems to be the exact opposite of what the lolita subculture is about, and will aggravate a LOT of people in that community.

The lolita street fashion subculture in Japan (and its offshoots around the world) are about looking like a childlike porcelain doll, dressed very modestly and not sexy at all. While the name is an unfortunate throwback to the Nabokov book, the subculture does not use it in that way at all. Japan commonly borrows words from English while misinterpreting or distorting their original meaning.

Genuine lolita fashion (as opposed to the rather burlesquey 'sexy little girl' thing she seems to be doing):

Originally Posted by Maral

The finger-wave tutorial looks tempting as I'm still struggling with that on myself, but the glimpse and brief description of her take on "Gothic Lolita" seems to be the exact opposite of what the lolita subculture is about, and will aggravate a LOT of people in that community.

The lolita street fashion subculture in Japan (and its offshoots around the world) are about looking like a childlike porcelain doll, dressed very modestly and not sexy at all. While the name is an unfortunate throwback to the Nabokov book, the subculture does not use it in that way at all. Japan commonly borrows words from English while misinterpreting or distorting their original meaning.

Genuine lolita fashion (as opposed to the rather burlesquey 'sexy little girl' thing she seems to be doing):

I just had a look at the trailer and while it looked very interesting in general, I came here to point this misinformation out! Good to see someone did it already more eloquently than me.

I like the other two looks very much, though, so maybe I'll look into the DVD sometime. The presentation and concept look really good! (And that was three "look"s in two sentences...)

Originally Posted by Maral

The finger-wave tutorial looks tempting as I'm still struggling with that on myself, but the glimpse and brief description of her take on "Gothic Lolita" seems to be the exact opposite of what the lolita subculture is about, and will aggravate a LOT of people in that community.

Does Lolita subculture (which I was not aware of) necessarily have to equal "Goth Lolita"? Goth fashion in parts wears very daring outfits, but not "sexy seductive" revealing but rather threatening/fantasy creature..
I don't see goth in those pics you posted at all to be honest..

yay for the wavy 20s hair! must learn how to do it!

Originally Posted by dinavienna

Does Lolita subculture (which I was not aware of) necessarily have to equal "Goth Lolita"? Goth fashion in parts wears very daring outfits, but not "sexy seductive" revealing but rather threatening/fantasy creature..
I don't see goth in those pics you posted at all to be honest..

Gothic Lolita is a subgenre of Lolita, and the first and last pictures pretty much exemplify the look- all the girly trappings but executed in Goth colours and sprinkled with bats. And there are few things that send a Lolita into a lace ripping frenzy like seeing someone sexing up their subculture!

I like the look Jeniviva's rocking in the DVD, but it's not Lolita, just cute Goth.

Originally Posted by dinavienna

Does Lolita subculture (which I was not aware of) necessarily have to equal "Goth Lolita"? Goth fashion in parts wears very daring outfits, but not "sexy seductive" revealing but rather threatening/fantasy creature..
I don't see goth in those pics you posted at all to be honest..

yay for the wavy 20s hair! must learn how to do it!

In Japan the first person to give it a proper name was the male singer Mana, whose style is very dramatic and gothic in flavour (yes, he's male and ambiguously straight ):



Basically, the sweet type of lolita had been around for a while but it wasn't yet what we call lolita fashion these days. IIRC, Mana merged that girly, modest style with a dark gothic influence and went on marketing it as "gothic lolita". Basically, the fashion in general is just called lolita, but by the time people were knowledgable enough about it here in the West, it had already caught on as "goth loli" everywhere. It's like "bellydance" - raqs sharqi would be more correct maybe, but you can't erase it from people's heads.

I second the 20's hair! I love those waves. I only wish styles like that would stay in my hair

Found this thread and have to upload this joke card my friend made of an old pic for my big 30

I sure would have ignored any suggestions going towards sexy from the preferred spookyness.Decolletage or high heels(except clunky maryjanes)were not high on my list of desired attibutes

(I´m 17 here,as a 34 yr old I mumble:foundation line,mhm)

Hi Dina,
I feel I´m out of connection of the scene nowadays-uninterested with having a "look"except on stage,feeling just fine in fleece nowadays::)

I was into the "spooky&scary cute"stuff...but there was not many resources then;
(just like with oriental dance) there´s many,many websites,magazines,books now

Bet someone here more in touch could describe in what directions the current lolita styles move now...I remember shopping for extras from here,but thinking that going all out with their designs would look too saccarine for me:http://www.babyssb.co.jp/index.html

Nostalgia:
In my teenage years the "thong going over edge of low slung pants+lower back tattoo"were the preferred look for tweens/teens/20-somethings;HOW I LOVED these:
http://www.babyssb.co.jp/shopping/ap...s/106P604.html

Gothic Lolita: yup, those pictures nail it. Gothic Lolita girls here are also probably at the fabric stores as much as I am and there is a huge DYI scene attached to them...because those outfits are pricey.

That section of the DVD seems poorly named.

Lolita has moved towards an Angelic Pretty-inspired sweet style (referred to as OTT/Over The Top Sweet), like this: (These are nicknamed AP Clones.)



Not my taste at all, but whatever. Right now, there's a move towards good old Classic Lolita, however:



It's my preferred style, back when I still wore lolita.

And I think we have derailed the thread enough now

This is FASCINATING. Thanks for sharing, bhuzzers!

Wow I just found this thread! Its JeniViva here btw.
: )
I am glad there is discussion happening about this dvd but curious why the Gothic Lolita thing seemed to strike such a tender cord.

For the record...I think I mentioned that the looks were all my interpretation of the style.
I would never be so bold (and perhaps arrogant) as to say that anything creative and stylistic (my bellydance included) has any absolute definitive of what is and what is not.

I encourage everyone to explore and use the looks I worked with as guidelines, a playful starting place and develop your own definition of the style.
No right and no wrong...just fun.


Thanks you guys for taking then time watch and to share ideas as well. If you have any questions email me here or on facebook!
WOOTTT!
xoxo
JeniViva




to

Originally Posted by Miss JeniViva

I am glad there is discussion happening about this dvd but curious why the Gothic Lolita thing seemed to strike such a tender cord.

I think it's just that Gothic Lolita is such a strong, iconographic, well-defined look (and sometimes lifestyle).

I don't think it struck a tender cord so much as it just felt like a misnomer to some of us.

Originally Posted by ozma

I think it's just that Gothic Lolita is such a strong, iconographic, well-defined look (and sometimes lifestyle).

I don't think it struck a tender cord so much as it just felt like a misnomer to some of us.

As the mother of a 13 year old who is near immersed in the Lolita subculture (and is a frenzied purist about it all! lol) I concur. I have a lot of cosplayer friends who would also be critiquing.

Though, I always am looking for inspiration from deviations and americanized versions in world fashion trends. Example: I adore steampunk but what I wear leans more toward the victorian era (sans goggles, I need to find a pair that really works for me -lol). I tend to call it steampunk-esque or steampunk-inspired as it is my own take on it. To me, I would only add "inspired by Gothic Lolita" (as it is her own take on a very fun world subculture). I think Jeniviva has a beautiful look (I saw her dance in New Orleans at HOB a few years ago) and would love to buy this. Just sayin'.

Originally Posted by Miss JeniViva

I am glad there is discussion happening about this dvd but curious why the Gothic Lolita thing seemed to strike such a tender cord.

It's pretty similar to the bellydance/slut confusion - lolita is a very modest style that nevertheless has to deal with lots of accusations that it's "sexy", "ageplay", "cosplay", what have you. And if there's one thing lolitas don't want to be in their loli gear, it's sexy - the frills are not a fetish or something. So if someone presents something sexy or very dramatic (like your styling), a lolita's red lights go on. Just like a bellydancer wouldn't be overjoyed if someone pointed at sheer harem pants and said, "That's what all those bellydancers wear!" It's just a misconception we'd like to get rid of.

Nothing personal against you, though It's simply something (former) lolitas feel very strongly about. I still think your DVD looks cool - maybe once I've saved up a little...

Originally Posted by Kjesta

It's pretty similar to the bellydance/slut confusion - lolita is a very modest style that nevertheless has to deal with lots of accusations that it's "sexy", "ageplay", "cosplay", what have you. And if there's one thing lolitas don't want to be in their loli gear, it's sexy - the frills are not a fetish or something.

Uhm.. why did the starters of this trend then choose a clearly connoted (sexually connoted) literature reference? Lolita for anyone who knows a. the novel, b. any of the movie adaptions, c. is aware of the common meaning the word "Lolita" has gained through this one iconic novel it is based on will think "immature sex"/"underage (inappropriate?) sexiness"/"girly awakening sexuality". Honestly, I don't know why someone with an interest in not being sexual would call themselves by nabokov's character's name. A big question mark for me on the intentions. (And no, I don't think she (Lolita)'s "misunderstood" or anything ) To me that's like if tribal bellydancers feeling strongly about not being sexual as dancers had not called themselves tribal, but "Baywatch bellydancers" or something like that (although that could be ironic - but clearly is bound to misrepresentation like madonnas infamous "boy toy" belt).

Anyways, I find it interesting people of a certain subculture, which seems to be spreading across ethnicities and being a youth culture or music culture phenomenon, would borrow reference from one artistic innovation (Nabokovs character), and try and limit the use of that reference to others. Even if there was a Goth Lolita genre, why should not someone else who has a fascination for Lolita, the literature reference, make a Goth version out of her which drips of sexuality (as does the novel character in parts of the book and the movie with Jeremy Irons). Why would anyone except Nabokov feel they "own" the Lolita idea? That is like Dondi doing Marilyn Monroe impersonation in bellydance, and then believing she is the only one who can legitimately portray a bellydancing Marilyn. To connect a cultural icon, be it Marilyn or the fictitious Lolita, to one's own artistic interest, be it a well-established subculture like the goth culture or a well established dance form like bellydance, in my eye is not an innovation big enough to put one's exclusive stamp on it.
Feelings of "property" or "expropriation" imo necessitate a strong connection between one person or one people/ethnicity/country/culture which has/have uniquely coined a dance, expression, style. If Nabokov is pissed with Goth(s) use of his character, more power to him (not that he can prevent anyone from expressing themselves with the character he put out there, but he can demand respect and has a certain word in his creation).

I find it quite intriguing people who connect two well-established ideas would feel they can legitimately prevent others from playing with the same roots they drew from. not meant as a reproach or anything, i just find it interesting as an idea, but tend to not agree. from my experience what makes you feel "disowned" often is when you feel your ethnicity or culture is stigmatized, so when there are clear repercussions on you directly by a large part of society on how you as an individual simply by belonging to that larger group are perceived. i wonder if there really is such a strong personal impact by society at large on goth lolitas, who want to be seen as innocent (is being a Goth lolita an identity-defining and encompassing self-definition, out of curiosity?) - and again, badly chosen name, sorry!! - when another Goth is wearing "provocative Lolita"?

bottom line for me is I think there is little legitimacy or "patent" on the lolita idea (Nabokov excluded), so why would anyone be bound and limited by other's interpretation of it? I don't see sensitive issues like race which may warrant some artistic sensitivity in treating the topic, so I really don't get the legitimacy in the limitation imposed on Jeniviva or others who may wish to play with Lolita under whatever music or other cultural roof. My 30 cents

She says that the 3 looks in the dvd are inspired by "famous femme fatales"
I think it seems pretty obvious from that that the "Gothic Lolita" look is inspired by the Lolita character and not the subculture that has previously taken that name.

For the record...I think I mentioned that the looks were all my interpretation of the style.
I would never be so bold (and perhaps arrogant) as to say that anything creative and stylistic (my bellydance included) has any absolute definitive of what is and what is not.

I don't think anyone on here felt you were doing that!

Lolita is just such a codified fashion scene that it naturally attracts attention if you present a take on it that is outside the norms (e.g. sexing it up)

I think it seems pretty obvious from that that the "Gothic Lolita" look is inspired by the Lolita character and not the subculture that has previously taken that name.

... that honestly never even occurred to me!

Originally Posted by LilithNoor

I don't think anyone on here felt you were doing that!

Lolita is just such a codified fashion scene that it naturally attracts attention if you present a take on it that is outside the norms (e.g. sexing it up)

Who makes the norms and with what right!?

Who makes the norms and with what legitimacy (see my longer posts :-) )?

I'm probably not the best equipped person to answer that, as I've always been a looker-on rather than a participant in the scene (my figure is not suited to a style of clothing designed for small delicate japanese girls).

I know that the Gothic Lolita look has links with Japanese music, notably a singer called Mana with a huge following, which may account for some of the fanaticism associated with the subculture.

You may find this site answers more of your questions?? Lolita Fashion - For Lolitas of All Styles

Originally Posted by LilithNoor

... that honestly never even occurred to me!

Really? The mention of Lolita after the introduction of "famous femme fatales in history?"

I guess if you already have an involvement or close knowledge of "Lolita" fashion, that might be your association. I have seen and heard of that style before, but the first association that came to mind for me here was definitely the original Lolita character.

For one, the fashion evolved in Japan, and the Japanese have a rather loose way of handling names and inspirations. Hardly anybody over there even knows the novel, much less has read it. Just like the series Neon Genesis Evangelion is slathered in religious imagery - it's mainly done to look cool. People have asked to rename the fashion, but how would you do that? It's just become the fashion's name, you might just as well try to rename the Goth movement, for example. Or abstract art.

And the reason that we think of it is just that the terms Gothic Lolita have become so strongly linked. If I found a girl that wears clothes that stress her belly and who dances in them and calls that bellydance, then it's true insofar as that it's a dance which she does with her belly... But what is commonly associated with the name, ie MED, is something different.

Originally Posted by Kjesta

For one, the fashion evolved in Japan, and the Japanese have a rather loose way of handling names and inspirations. Hardly anybody over there even knows the novel, much less has read it. Just like the series Neon Genesis Evangelion is slathered in religious imagery - it's mainly done to look cool. People have asked to rename the fashion, but how would you do that? It's just become the fashion's name, you might just as well try to rename the Goth movement, for example. Or abstract art.

And the reason that we think of it is just that the terms Gothic Lolita have become so strongly linked. If I found a girl that wears clothes that stress her belly and who dances in them and calls that bellydance, then it's true insofar as that it's a dance which she does with her belly... But what is commonly associated with the name, ie MED, is something different.

But the term "Lolita" was in use before it was taken as the name for this particular fashion movement. Here is one dictionary definition Lolita | Define Lolita at Dictionary.com
The fact that the Japanese do not know about the original Lolita does not change the associations that the term already has. It is a very commonly used and recognized term. No need to change it, but I can't really see how anyone they could be upset about it if someone else also takes the term "Lolita" for their own art or fashion inspiration. (as I'm sure they have!)

Originally Posted by mariyah13

But the term "Lolita" was in use before it was taken as the name for this particular fashion movement. Here is one dictionary definition Lolita | Define Lolita at Dictionary.com
The fact that the Japanese do not know about the original Lolita does not change the associations that the term already has. It is a very commonly used and recognized term. No need to change it, but I can't really see how anyone they could be upset about it if someone else also takes the term "Lolita" for their own art or fashion inspiration. (as I'm sure they have!)

Have to agree with this one. I find this thread fascinating, but I had never heard of a Lolita subculture or fashion movement- here, the term Lolita is kind of an archetype, probably going back to the book (which I have also never read)

But then, I always find it mildly humorous when a group adopts something and then declares their interpretation is the only viable one on the entire planet. It is good to know what other people are doing in certain places/subcultures, but you need to know that outside that context it may have other meanings (just take 'common language' for example- and all the confusion stemming from colloquialisms)

Originally Posted by mariyah13

But the term "Lolita" was in use before it was taken as the name for this particular fashion movement.

it never occurred to me such a fashion would not have the original novel in mind but possibly just a very vague idea of it being about underage girls/"innocence"(when the novel ironically is about quite the contrary in an underage girl, isnt it).

Originally Posted by LilithNoor

Lolita Fashion - For Lolitas of All Styles

thanks!!!

Originally Posted by Lara L

But then, I always find it mildly humorous when a group adopts something and then declares their interpretation is the only viable one on the entire planet.

true! :-)