Thread: *spinoff* Talk to me about Baba Karam

I dance quite a bit for Persians, and I've been requested to find some Persian music for the upcoming New Year. After seeing the Baba Karam clips on the other thread, I'd like to try to work in a Baba Karam act into some of my sets for Persian audiences.

Here's my disclaimer: years ago, when I first started gigging professionally, I learned a short BK routine with another dancer - we played backup dancers in Baba Karam costumes to a Persian singer/DJ. I remember our outfits had rip-away pants with shorts and tights underneath, lol.

What I don't remember are the exact steps (although I do remember they were not difficult), and the music used.

I've been perusing the youtube clips and have heard a few different songs, so I'm not sure if there's a specific Baba Karam song, or if it's a dance done to certain classical songs.

Does anyone regularly perform this, and can you help me with music selections and insight?

There is a specific song used called baba karam (and you can find it on itunes- lots of versions!), but there really are no specific steps in any particular order, though there are certain movements the Persian culture deems masculine (and the younger girl in the youtube clip I posted does it SO well). It's just done on the fly by women, and the good news is that you can dance to 1/4 of the song and pass the hat to another Persian woman. There's a lot of shoulder work, and this is not a dance where you smile sweetly. Oh no, you have to look macho!!! Lots of facial expressions where you cock one eyebrow, and the lip twitch is a good move, too. I haven't been able to find this on youtube, but it's done with the bottom lip moved from side to side really fast.
Really, though, I'd just start watching the youtube clips and mimicking what the women are doing, HOW they imitate the men. I don't think it's about the steps used as it is about the "correct" posturing and attitude (and clothing! Use the hat, the napkin, and maybe a tie over your costume if you can manage!).

Thank you Summer!

One of the most perfect Bobba Karam dances I have ever seen is by Persian Dancer Venus saleh who is based in Bristol UK. The qivering top lip and eyebrows are classic. She is so sexy too. This dance is her art.

Ohh lucky me, I found this thread a little by accident and a little on purpose too..g.: .
My husband told me a long time ago in Tehran, there was a gang who was ran by a macho guy called Baba Karam. He was sort of like the Iranian Mafia leader. He was the kind of guy that liked to show off and did it mostly with his walk and demeanor. He said that Baba Karam made famous a Tehrani style dance and sort of had a european look to his clothing with that black hat and business suit. Always one side of the shirt is tucked in the other side is left out.Weird I know! Anyway, the older generation of Persians seem to prefer Baba Karam danced to the traditional Baba Karam song. Have you had any luck with finding somebody who can teach you the dance and expressions?

If you know any Persian women, they'll be able to teach you. Otherwise, just search youtube clips for how they're doing it.
I performed this for the first time a couple of weeks ago in a persian restaurant, and they all went NUTS. They weren't expecting it!

There must be different versions of the Baba Karam lore, because the story I've always heard from Persians is that Baba Karam was a baker in a particular village (the name which I am blanking on at the moment), and that very late at night when the baking was done, Baba Karam and his buddies would put on their black fedoras and coats and go out drinking and carousing for ladies. This is why there is gesturing of drinking and stumbling, and cocky, "come with me baby" behavior. He is like a comic character basically, but supposedly based on a "true story", whichever version you choose to go with! ..l;,

baba karam

1. the lip twitching thing is called eshve chetori ... its considered very sexual. so consider weather you really want to do it.
2. good clips - khordadian and ana aharoni on youtube
3. there are many versions of the song.
4. its basically a dance that makes fun of tough guys - so yes, masculine, but comical and sexy
5. if you want a translation of the lyrics let me know and ill translate them for you, but theyre mostly non sensical anyway..

dont wear anything with rip away costumes etc. a traditional baba karam costume is mens wear - black pants, white collarad shirt, (NO TIE - persians dont wear ties) and a fedora hat.

lots of neck and arm movements...think michael jackson in smooth criminal. thats a good starting point cus i sWEAAAAAAAAAAR he ripped off baba karam in coming up with his image and dancing, i SWEARRRRRRRRRRRR ( at least its my conspiracy theory)

Awesome info, Aasiyah!
I've danced the baba karam a few times now in the Persian restaurants I work at, and it has been very warmly received. Each time the music starts, the Persians look up from their dinners in surprise, and a smile creeps onto their faces. I've even been congratulated a few times by Persians on my baba karam! I'm trying really hard to do it correctly, and I always ask the waitstaff for tips on how to make my baba karam better/funnier. It's so much fun!

Check out Angelika Nemeth's dance company, they do a great version, their performance is on a few video's.

OMG. I just stumbled across this thread. I didn't even know this dance existed! Its wonderful! I need to learn this!!

I found some clips on youtube, can anyone comment and explain which are "good" and which are not and why?

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=u14rPwbeeOk]YouTube - Baba Karam[/ame]

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=5Yg6Mcp7taw&feature=related]YouTube - Nava Aharoni - BABA KARAM persian dance[/ame]

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=wt1P9ueAHmw&feature=related]YouTube - Baba Karam Dancers (Mohammad Khordadian group)[/ame]

Okay, this one is priceless....

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=Oelup_16HWQ&feature=related]YouTube - Iranian Dance - Baba Karam[/ame]

The first one is EXCELLENT. She has great moves, great facial expressions, and her dance comes across masculine enough but you can see her poking a little fun at the machismo. The second one down is ok. It's a little too feminine in my opinion. She needs to drop her grace a little and show off more masculinely. The third one down is not great. It's too showy and the posturing and attitude aren't there. They're smiling and looking like they're having fun, but that's not what this dance is all about. I'm not sure about the last one....the kid's not really dancing the baba karam, he's just dancing to the music (which is baba karam).

I agree I love the first one. She's got it down!

There is more than one way to do Baba Karam in Persian sensibilities. That first clip shows the woman dressed and dancing as the man, and that's the most "hardcore" way to do Baba Karam. There is also the softer version of a bellydancer donning a black fedora and playing around at Baba Karam for the course of a song during her set, and that is perfectly acceptable entertainment too. I've seen the famous Persian bellydancer Jamileh do this in her full cabaret costume for a Persian audience who seemed to love it. A number of times Persian people have referred to Jamileh as a good example of a bellydancer doing Baba Karam, so it's obviously accepted in that form, without the full menswear attire.

i think that Nava Aharoni's version is best - look at her arms!!!!!
the thing with baba karam is that its still supposed to be feminine and sexy - its not supposed to be masculine...its not a mans dance. its a PARODY of a mans dance

and yes jemileh is EXCELLENT.

Yes the Nava Aharoni clip is a great example of how Baba Karam can be done in a more feminine way as well. It's an interesting juxtaposition of elements - that's what makes it funny/entertaining!

This discussion is very interesting! I learn more every day. I suspect different Persian crowds like their baba karam done differently from restaurant to restaurant. The Persian woman who taught me the dance told me to be masculine about it, err on the side of machismo. When I dance it, I'm finding that the audience seems to be more entertained when I drop the feminine and use more masculine gestures.

Jemileh is a great example of a bellydancer doing the baba karam. The Persians LOVE her! I forgot I had an old dvd of her doing 8-9 different dances besides bellydancing, and I'll have to watch it to pick up some tips. She's SO good at baba karam! I'll find outwhat's its called in case any of you are interested in ordering the dvd. It's really good!

[QUOTE=aasiyah;169558]baba karam
(NO TIE - persians dont wear ties)

They do wear ties. Not now in Iran because the regime outlawed ties claiming they were of Western influence, but before then they did. Even the girl in the first video is wearing one.

agreed, but for a baba karam dance i wouldnt. the men we are making fun of with this dance are not business men who have a 9-5 job but mafioso types who hang out in old persian casinos and nightclubs and drink all night. Instead i would wear the white shirt, open in the front a few buttons, black pants, a suit jacket over my shoulders (not on) which I will later remove, a fedora and a mans scarf worn loose hanging from the neck. The scarf is also used as a prop (held at the ends and done in conjunction with neck and shoulder movements)

ZOMBIE THREAD ALERT!!!

This topic just came up on the Illinois Suckage thread, and I stumbled upon some cute clips, so I thought I'd add them here.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFAW-WswOAI]YouTube - raghs baba karam (Baba Karam Persian Dance)[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz7eSj7Z9H4]YouTube - Baba Karam - Persian dance[/ame]

The above clips I believe to be native Persians performing (I always look for 'first-hand' clips). I don't know about the dancer below, but she's a great example of workin' the Baba Karam into a BD set.

Baba Karam - old Persian dance* Iranian Video Sharing - Vidoosh TV

Here's the Nava Aharoni clip people are discussing above (guess Bhuz didn't auto embed then?)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yg6Mcp7taw]YouTube - Nava Aharoni - BABA KARAM persian dance[/ame]

OMG I just found a clip of Jemilah herself doing baba karam! Priceless treasure.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErPYvKp_lyo]YouTube - Persian Dance - jamileh (Old Clip )[/ame]

Lauren:

Thanks so much for posting the clips. This helps bring those comments to life for me--what a fascinating dance! Bhuz--it's not just for swapmeetin'--(although there's nothing wrong with the swap meet.......g.:)

H

Thanks for reviving the thread, Lauren- I would have completely missed this otherwise! Great stuff!

Woohoo!THANK YOU Lauren!

Have this on video tapes but not on DVD.
What do y´all think;
Should I start a new thread about bandari(the dances of south Iran)found some rare clips avaliable on YouTube?

Originally Posted by emma-bessa

Woohoo!THANK YOU Lauren!

Have this on video tapes but not on DVD.
What do y´all think;
Should I start a new thread about bandari(the dances of south Iran)found some rare clips avaliable on YouTube?

Yes please ..g.:..g.:

Before I saw Amani Jabril do this, I only saw a smattering of Persian dance, i.e., Louchia on one of Rania's DVDs (I think it's the Divas DVD but not sure). I was impressed with not only the costume but also the movements, mostly upper body.

But this dance of women acting out men's parts is awesome. I wouldn't mind seeing more of it.

I am glad I stumbled upon this as well! I have been working on and putting together some Persian stuff lately. I have been reading abotu this dance and had found a few things on it. Thanks for sharing all the info! You learn something new all the time!
xoxo,
-NJ

Originally Posted by emma-bessa

Should I start a new thread about bandari(the dances of south Iran)found some rare clips avaliable on YouTube?

Oh, PLEASE do! I was just thinking about bandari the other day.

I took a bandari workshop ages ago, but I'd love to knock the dust off it and learn more about it.