Thread: Comparing opera and bellydance?

We live in a city where bellydance in restaurants is very rare, and tipping a bellydancer is virtually unknown. I am looking for a good way to explain that tipping is a civilized, classy and cool way to show appreciation for the performer. Since tipping a dancer reminds many people of strippers, I want to make the connection to more hoidy-toidy performance arts.

And, an idea popped into my head: Compare bellydance tipping to how in Europe, opera fans enthusiastically hand or toss flowers at opera singers - it is part of the protocol (no flowers = bad, clueless audience), considered classy, done generously, and sophisticated fans get very excited to show their appreciation. Having grown up with opera in Europe, that works very well for me.

However, I come from a family of opera nuts, and I'm wondering how well is that understood by Americans? (My experience here is limited to the Pittsburgh opera - and my family would probably say that things are a very provincial.)

I think people would "get" it. You would have the M.C. or someone explain this at the beginning of the show?

I've seen and done a "how to tip" demo at shows here, where tipping dancers is almost unknown (except in strip clubs). Have a nice dancer come out in costume and have the M.C. talk about how the custom is done in the Middle East, while (s)he or another person demonstrates the proper placement of bills in the costume. Have them humorously demo how NOT to tip. If the "tipper" tries to put the bill in the wrong spot (front of bra, front of belt, for example), the dancers makes a funny "NO" face and wags her finger at them, so it's lighthearted but gets the message across.

p.s. you can tell people you know who are coming to the show to be prepared with small bills so there isn't a run on the restaurant cash register depleting them of bills they need for change. (After your very effective talk/demo, etc. everyone will be eager to tip the dancers, right?)

Originally Posted by steffib

We live in a city where bellydance in restaurants is very rare, and tipping a bellydancer is virtually unknown. I am looking for a good way to explain that tipping is a civilized, classy and cool way to show appreciation for the performer. Since tipping a dancer reminds many people of strippers, I want to make the connection to more hoidy-toidy performance arts.

And, an idea popped into my head: Compare bellydance tipping to how in Europe, opera fans enthusiastically hand or toss flowers at opera singers - it is part of the protocol (no flowers = bad, clueless audience), considered classy, done generously, and sophisticated fans get very excited to show their appreciation. Having grown up with opera in Europe, that works very well for me.

Actually coming from a non-tipping country I don't see how tipping is "a civilized, classy and cool way to show appreciation for the performer". I always thought it was because employers were too mean to pay a decent fee! Nor do I see a link between throwing flowers and giving money (unless, as in some places they are exchangeable for cash).

Pay me upfront - and if I'm outstanding - offer a bonus - but don't expect me to beg for my fee

Originally Posted by steffib

And, an idea popped into my head: Compare bellydance tipping to how in Europe, opera fans enthusiastically hand or toss flowers at opera singers - it is part of the protocol (no flowers = bad, clueless audience), considered classy, done generously, and sophisticated fans get very excited to show their appreciation. Having grown up with opera in Europe, that works very well for me.

Must be a European thing. I had season tickets to Opera San Jose for several years when I lived in California, and I don't think I ever saw even one flower tossed to the singers in all that time.

Several thoughts come to mind. You could have a tip jar or basket prominently displayed with a framed photo of the dancer in costume. Or you could have some small cards placed on each table with basic middle eastern dance info--you know, developed from social dance, everyone does it, each country has its own style, tipping is part of the dance experience. Or you could have friends at shows who tip or have their kids give you tips to kind of show the audience that it is okay.

I watched a dancer work her tail off at at shisha club with no tips simply because the mostly young American audience had no idea that it was appropriate.

Souzan

Have to agree with Kashmir here - to me - tipping is tasteless - altho i do know some dancers who let audiences know that if they wish to tip - give it to the MC - never ever ever directly to the dancer- strictly non-touch technique !

I've never seen people throwing flowers on opera singers either. They do throw flowers on the ice for figure skaters though. That might be another alternative for explaning what it's about?

For the most part the rates here in the DC region are decent. We're not relying on tips in the least. BUT- they can add up quite a bit.
It seems to me most people also are quite good about reading the dancer. Even with costume tipping I've only experienced people trying to touch twice...and one of those was a Grandmom! If the dancer knows she/he has that choice- there is NO touching at all with costume tipping. In fact SHE/HE is the one who is actually putting the money in the costume (or she/he CAN be).
Just last night someone politely asked "where can I put this?". I replied "in my pocket over here" and gestured to the side of my hip belt. He still only got the money close and I tucked it in. No touching. That's always an option for any dancer- to do the actual placement herself.
If someone tries to tip inappropriately I walk away.
When I explain about tipping I describe weddings with money showers; how it adds to the celebratory feel to have money flying around. Then I add that costuming tipping is just an extension of that and a way for customers (or party goers) to show appreciation for the dancer.
A Turkish restaurant in Baltimore made up little "business cards" that they hand out before the dancer comes on. It talks about how it's a family friendly art and how tipping is part of the tradition and a culturally appropriate way to show appreciation.

I also think in the DC area the audience is pretty good with tipping, and the rates are decent.

I personally like Jillina's method. The server (restaurant owner, or someone who deals with customer service) goes around gathering tips for the dancer (not soliciting, but the patrons summon him/her, and give the money to him/her). Once he has a decent amount, at an appropriate moment in her performance (I see this happening once she is facing the audience, or standing still doing undulations or something), he showers the money over her, and allows it to fall on the floor. The server then recognizes the patron for her by outstretching his hand towards the table (tables), and she nods appreciatively. Whew! Okay, how's that for tipping?

Addressing another topic:

I don't see tipping as tasteless at all. It's a representation of saying "Good Work!", or acknowledging the art of the dance. Raks Sharqi is NOT stripping, and is quite obvious. How can you possibly see tipping a Bellydancer as tasteless, compared to a stripper? Why shouldn't we be rewarded for our hard work?

I should have added that this is at a very desirable venue, an upstart Turkish coffeehouse (for those who have been to Pennsic: It's the permanent home of Your Inner Vagabond), with accomodating owners, enjoyable clientele, delightful atmosphere - it's a place where I go to to hang out and have coffee anyways. Doesn't pay too much, but I feel that the tradeoff between finances and desirable conditions is much in favor of this place. And, when it comes to being paid really good money, it seems that the better avenue are private parties anyways.

And, I also should have added that the idea of asking for tips was not motivated by a desire to make up for low pay (I sure appreciate money, of course) - I like the idea of being tipped as an interaction with the audience and as a form of showing appreciation, and it is the kind of venue where I am not worried about things going wrong.

Anyways, the first performance was on Thursday, I decided to start things with a little spiel (didn't have an MC, and I am fine with public speaking): I explained that bellydance is different than Western entertainment: a good audience claps along during the performance ("This is not the symphony"), getting up during audience participation is part of the deal, and tipping is welcome and part of the culture of this dance form. I cracked a joke about what my grandmother would think - and how wrong her ideas would be, and then mentioned the Italian opera, which seemed to work. People seemed to be receptive, and laughed. And, what happened is that a little boy was encouraged by his mother to go around with the tip basket - he had a ball, everybody laughed about him, and he was excited that he got part of the loot as a thank-you. I thought it went exceptionally well, and from what I can tell, everybody had a good time. It would be perfect if things could continue in that spirit!

Originally Posted by Bellydancefanatic

I don't see tipping as tasteless at all. It's a representation of saying "Good Work!", or acknowledging the art of the dance. Raks Sharqi is NOT stripping, and is quite obvious. How can you possibly see tipping a Bellydancer as tasteless, compared to a stripper? Why shouldn't we be rewarded for our hard work?

It isn't the link with strippers - or body tipping - it is the concept that anyone - dancer, waiter, or plumber is dependent on tips to earn a living. It is saying rather than "this is what I'm worth pay me up front", "did I please you? will you please give me money?". To me it is akin to begging.

Originally Posted by kashmir

It isn't the link with strippers - or body tipping - it is the concept that anyone - dancer, waiter, or plumber is dependent on tips to earn a living. It is saying rather than "this is what I'm worth pay me up front", "did I please you? will you please give me money?". To me it is akin to begging.

When I was waitress years ago, that was what I relied on. It is a common courtesy, and we see it as rude not to do it (speaking of restaurants in this case). I never begged or seemed to beg. I'm working my butt off. Plus, unfortunately, some people in this world have no choice.

So if recieving tips is like begging, then I'm a beggar, and I'm not ashamed one bit!

Sorry if I seem snarky...

I've been thinking a lot about cultural difference and construction of local identity lately and Kashmir's attitude to tipping is a great example. We don't traditionally have tipping here because our cultural construction is both highly egalitarian, and largely socialist. You actually seldom if ever see beggars in NZ, for instance, even though we do totally have poor people. Until we turned into the free market laboratory of the world, it was pretty much a given that nobody actually got paid so little that they had to try and get extras by sucking up to strangers (again, not done in our corner of the world since we fear people will find out we don't really believe we are as good as anyone else if not better). I've gotten into trouble on Bhuz before for pointing out that I find it immoral to pay people below a living wage. If you can't afford to pay staff a living wage, you can't afford staff, that's how we see it here.

I think whether or not tipping looks akin to begging has a lot to do with the dancer's attitude and intent. When I dance at a local restaurant you bet your ass I am going to do a "tip dance" with a pot or basket at the end of the night. I usually have a "plant" in the audience to start the process (otherwise people would just think "hey, look, a cute prop!"). But I accept tips only in the basket, not in my costume, and if patrons don't offer tips up willingly and with a smile I don't overstay my welcome and try to force it out of them. Most of the time the majority of tables will give at least a small tip. I smile and zaghareet for them and talk to them if they have any comments or questions. Sometimes I can't make it to every table, or I don't realize a table wants to tip, or someone will be in the restroom, etc. and in that case the wait staff accepts tips for me.
I think it could totally look like "begging" if I seemed stressed out about wringing tips out of the patrons. The truth is, I don't have to stress about it because I'm getting paid by the set to dance anyway. Even if I was not getting paid, I'm too proud to grovel! I figure, I try to dance my best during the rest of the set anyway, so if people are not already impressed or appreciative enough to tip, I'm not going to make up for it in the tip dance. I try to maintain a respectful distance between myself and the patrons without being aloof, and I think going up to each table and trying to dance tips out of them crosses a line for me.
I think if I didn't accept tips, some people would think it was weird. In my area, we have a lot of people who are relocated from big cities like NYC who have seen dancers in restaurants and nightclubs up there, and the culture there includes tipping as a show of appreciation. Who am I to tell them this is not OK? (and why the hell would I want to?)

Originally Posted by SaraKat

I think whether or not tipping looks akin to begging has a lot to do with the dancer's attitude and intent. When I dance at a local restaurant you bet your ass I am going to do a "tip dance" with a pot or basket at the end of the night. I usually have a "plant" in the audience to start the process (otherwise people would just think "hey, look, a cute prop!"). But I accept tips only in the basket, not in my costume, and if patrons don't offer tips up willingly and with a smile I don't overstay my welcome and try to force it out of them. Most of the time the majority of tables will give at least a small tip. I smile and zaghareet for them and talk to them if they have any comments or questions. Sometimes I can't make it to every table, or I don't realize a table wants to tip, or someone will be in the restroom, etc. and in that case the wait staff accepts tips for me.
I think it could totally look like "begging" if I seemed stressed out about wringing tips out of the patrons. The truth is, I don't have to stress about it because I'm getting paid by the set to dance anyway. Even if I was not getting paid, I'm too proud to grovel! I figure, I try to dance my best during the rest of the set anyway, so if people are not already impressed or appreciative enough to tip, I'm not going to make up for it in the tip dance. I try to maintain a respectful distance between myself and the patrons without being aloof, and I think going up to each table and trying to dance tips out of them crosses a line for me.
I think if I didn't accept tips, some people would think it was weird. In my area, we have a lot of people who are relocated from big cities like NYC who have seen dancers in restaurants and nightclubs up there, and the culture there includes tipping as a show of appreciation. Who am I to tell them this is not OK? (and why the hell would I want to?)

I think that's a great attitude, SaraKat. I try to give my patrons a show they'd be excited to watch, but I don't stress out about not getting any tips, either. Honestly, I've seen a lot of different kinds of nights in my shows as a restaurant dancer- nights where everyone was hooting and clapping and having a great time watching me yet I made NO tips, and nights where there were 2 or 3 tables that weren't even watching me dance yet I walk away with $75 in tips. It's SO unpredictable, so I don't even TRY to predict it anymore! I just go into the audience to schmooze and say hello to the tables, and if they tip, they tip, but I think this low-pressure attitude emanates from me so that I don't give off the "I'm desperate! TIP ME!" vibe.

Actually, in the next Secrets of the Stage edition, this very topic is addressed nicely!
/end blatant plug/
:-)

Originally Posted by kashmir

It isn't the link with strippers - or body tipping - it is the concept that anyone - dancer, waiter, or plumber is dependent on tips to earn a living. It is saying rather than "this is what I'm worth pay me up front", "did I please you? will you please give me money?". To me it is akin to begging.

But who is saying accepting tips is in lieu of "I'm worth this much pay me up front"? In many US markets it's *in addition to*. Here it has nothing to DO with "begging"... it has to do with appreciation, interaction and (sometimes) the tipper showing off (as in I can give ALL THIS as a tip).
The ethnic places in the DC area are often the best tipping places, and often times the parties and weddings are, too (which are most definitely paying well). Tipping is part of the cultures from where these dance forms come from. In the 80's the Saudis in Paris would literally cover the stage with money showers comprised entirely of $100 bills. Would you turn that down if you had been dancing there?

I totally agree that a "dancer trolling for tips" is tasteless. I've seen dancers wiggle by tables UNTIL someone gives them a tip. In my mind *that* looks like someone is literally paying them to go away. (cringe) I've also seen people tip $1 and expect the dancer to do a trick (like a trained seal). That's rude...and easy to deal with.
But that's very different from accepting tips that are offered or waved around, showered over your head or simply handed to you. It's also different from *allowing* people to tip if they want to show extra appreciation.
Tipping is cultural in the ME and it's cultural over here. In fact in restaurants HERE waitstaff will refer to people who don't tip (or who tip poorly) as cheap, very cheap and honestly very insulting and rude. Definitely a different attitude from NZ culture.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

But that's very different from accepting tips that are offered or waved around, showered over your head or simply handed to you. It's also different from *allowing* people to tip if they want to show extra appreciation.
Tipping is cultural in the ME and it's cultural over here. In fact in restaurants HERE waitstaff will refer to people who don't tip (or who tip poorly) as cheap, very cheap and honestly very insulting and rude. Definitely a different attitude from NZ culture.

I totally agree! I've had times where a patron rushed up onto the stage as soon as I entered just to tip me! I'm NOT going to turn them away and say something like "Oh no....please don't. You see, I'm compensated very nicely by the restaurant management for my dancing."
They'd think I was a lunatic! ..l;, ..l;, ..l;,

Originally Posted by SummerSahar

I totally agree! I've had times where a patron rushed up onto the stage as soon as I entered just to tip me! I'm NOT going to turn them away and say something like "Oh no....please don't. You see, I'm compensated very nicely by the restaurant management for my dancing."
They'd think I was a lunatic! ..l;, ..l;, ..l;,

Frankly, unless it had strings attached I'd accept as well ,r:; but that's a different ball of wax from dancing around each table until they give a tip (which I saw a lot of while working in the States).

With regard to wait staff, to be polite (and because we had expense accounts), us NZers treated the "tip" as a tax - after all many restaurants included it added onto the bill. We couldn't see however why the restaurant didn't just pay the staff better. Don't give me the about better service either ,f:: However, the well paid US professionals we were working with were less likely to tip the "suggested minimum" - if at all.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I've gotten into trouble on Bhuz before for pointing out that I find it immoral to pay people below a living wage. If you can't afford to pay staff a living wage, you can't afford staff, that's how we see it here.

Now why in the world would you get in trouble for that, especially on Bhuz? I think it is great that you feel that way, and that it is apart of your culture.