Thread: Would you call these "non-oriental" ?

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Some would put Aunt Rocky there.

Really??? How so?

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Some would put Aunt Rocky there.

I wouldn't consider the style of dance that Morocco does to be American Classic. She has long focused on dancing Egyptian style.

Although back when she was starting out in the clubs of New York, she went through the same learning process that spawned American style, she traveled to Egypt many times and when I see her dance today, I see Egyptian style.

That's my understanding as well.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I wouldn't consider the style of dance that Morocco does to be American Classic. She has long focused on dancing Egyptian style.

Although back when she was starting out in the clubs of New York, she went through the same learning process that spawned American style, she traveled to Egypt many times and when I see her dance today, I see Egyptian style.

As I saiid, some would cinsider her to be. . .

I have taken a choreo based workshop which definately was NOT Egyptian. And I have seen her perform a handful of times in a style which was definately influenced by Egyptian, but also definately not purely so.

*shrugs* Some would consider that to be the definition of American Classic.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by nasila

To confuse matters more, we just recently held a workshop with Tamra-henna of LA (who lived and danced in the Middle East for like 7 years) called Beledi vs. Oriental. We went over the same combinations using the different stylings for each...which to me indicates that folkloric dances are possibly not considered "Oriental" within in the ME?

ETA this is somewhat in accordance with Kashmir's definition, yes?

..g.: Which isn't surprising as I got my definition from working with Egyptian teachers - Yousry Sharif, Aida Nour, Denise Enan, Dr Mo Geddawi who make exactly that distinction.

Way back when, I used to take a class where we'd do the same combinations three ways - folkloric, (urban) beledi, and oriental. Maybe that's something to look at again post-show (anything but choreography!!)

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I wouldn't consider the style of dance that Morocco does to be American Classic. She has long focused on dancing Egyptian style.

Although back when she was starting out in the clubs of New York, she went through the same learning process that spawned American style, she traveled to Egypt many times and when I see her dance today, I see Egyptian style.

I just see Morocco style. ..g.:
Of course every dancer develops her own accent but I would hazard that because she was one of your dancers learnt first hand from immigrants who knew how to do their style and got in there " on the shop floor" to learn her apprenticeship that that is still there however much she has developed the Egyptian side. I can't see a problem with that ,far from it..that's what makes a dancer special .
We have a dancer local to us , a great personality and entertainer. She learnt out there(Syria) I think and because she was already a Western dancer, what she does is different and special and makes her no less a dancer and a really good entertainer.
What has the element of the "orient" ?Egyptian Turkish and Folkloric.

What is orientale ?Egyptian, Turkish , Lebanese and Am-Cab.

What is belly dance but not usually very oriental? ATS and Tribal Fusion.

What is fusion? Some more recent developments have lost the belly dance
elements altogether. Some dancers are belly dancers but choose to develop this style out of all (or almost all) recognition. More and more women and men no doubt will join this movement and never learn Egyptian or even ATS.
NO problem it's just more dancing and often very entertaining.
But then I would not want it called orientale or belly dance ever just fusionor modern fusion or world fusion.

I don't mind using the word caberet because that is what we called it then although I understand the negative connations in some parts of the world.

When I started dancing, in my geographic area, there were 3 styles: Greek Caberet, Egyptian and "California style". California style would equate to today's version of American Caberet. Delilah is a perfect example of that.

Because Egyptian style was considered to be the best, that is what was danced in the Arabic clubs.

The Greek nightclubs however featured a style of dancing that were more like what Shira refers to as Vintage Oriental. There the music was a fusion of Greek, Egyptian, Lebanese, Armenian, Israeli etc. Veil, cymbals, floorwork, props were practically a requirement.

Interestingly enough though, the same dancers who danced in the Greek clubs were also the one's who performed in the Arabic clubs. They just had to adapt their steps to the different music. In the Arabic clubs veil work was at a minimum and you weren't allowed to floorwork. Some dancers played zills, but most only played them for the beledi. In the Arabic clubs you had a 7-8 parts show and each part was a different rhythm. Typically, an opening, a taxim, medium/fast song, chifitelli, (maybe another fast) beledi, drum solo, finale.

The Greek clubs had basically fast and slow. Typical routine was: fast, rhumba, very fast, chiftitelli, fast, or karsilama.

I'm actually teaching a workshop on this style in Chicago and I'm calling it American Greek Caberet, but I do like Shira's coinage of Vintage Oriental.

I personally see a difference between this style and what passes for American Cab today.

Tahira, I don't consider Fahtiem to be American Cabaret at all...I think she'd fall under Shems' new term Contemporary American Oriental.

And, I think Cory Zamora was looking for a shout-out under popular AmCab/Vintage Oriental style dancers. ..g.:

I was taught that (by Hadia, Denise Enan and Tamra-henna) that Oriental stems from Beledi. Taken up a notch for performance purposes and danced to Orchestrated music.

From that, I would say that none of the styles listed on the poll fit into this category although you could argue about style influences and music that encompasses both Oriental and folklore.

ie. If you listen to Hossam Ramzy's "Faddah". There's a Saidi portion of it that changes from Folklore to Oriental. The rhythm is clearly Saidi, but the dance style hops back and forth between styles. (Fun)!

Thank you all for clarification. I am happy for so many replies.

I wanted to use this term on my webpage, so I needed to know wheather it is justifiable to even use it when it is somewhat categorizing if not dividing. So thank you for your patience everybody.

Thanks for explanation about American Classic: Shira, Tahira, and others. I certainly know about connotations of words like "cabaret" (although not sure about the meaning of cabaret in North America), so I am even glad, there are other ways how to call the style.

I really like Norma´s description of oriental dance in America, and would like to hear more about this: "I personally see a difference between this style and what passes for American Cab today." (Quoting Norma). Maybe there is need of another thread for "affair Americain", while we Europeans just peek in and sh@t up. Or is there any older thread you could point me to ?

i know about a discrepancy in understanding of word Oriental: while GP usually think the dance comes from ME, dancers mean rather styling of the dance that differs it from folk dancing. This was also (although partially) my point. My expectation was that tribal and ME folk dance get the most hits.

Adishakti, I like the parts offolk music included in /mostly/ Egyptian pieces. it is so much fun to show diversity of the dance. Now, it would be fun, if people keen on fusion(s) (oh, yes, I know, that's the language,.... , the language!) start mixing up oriental & electronica & ME folk & world music...
Just imagining how interesting future might be...

Hi Michaela,
From my experience with three Arab dance teachers who were all based in France, the terminology used was orientale, which subdivided into raks sharki and raks beledi; and then folkloric. Since you're based in Europe, you'll probably want to get a good feeling on what terms are used in your neck of the woods. As you can tell, it's hard to come to a complete agreement. :)

ie. If you listen to Hossam Ramzy's "Faddah". There's a Saidi portion of it that changes from Folklore to Oriental. The rhythm is clearly Saidi, but the dance style hops back and forth between styles. (Fun)!

Yes,that's normal in Egyptian oriental music. (Oriental in the "gussied up for stage" sense!)

I too would like to hear more of Norma's reminscences about style! I always thought that "Egyptian" came more with Shareen el Safy and other US dancers who worked there in the 80s and brought it back, but this sounds like people were performing in an Egyptian style (or what they believed to be one) much earlier. And that clarifies for me why some oldschool dancers will talk about being "Egyptian style".

"When I started dancing, in my geographic area, there were 3 styles: Greek Caberet, Egyptian and "California style". California style would equate to today's version of American Caberet. Delilah is a perfect example of that. "
***** i had a dancer from the deep south come here in the 70's and ask for "california bent back"******* is that the same thing?
oh no on SHOUT OUT..i learned a long time ago, that who is what is very diff from place to place but, THANK YOU !!!!! beats the hell out of "retro" anyday !

Hi, often it helps to put people's comments in perspective if you know where they are from.

If you go to MyBhuz, you can add your country under "Account Settings" - this goes into the left hand box and sometimes helps sort out some posts

So, to most dancers, is "oriental" basically a more respectable, maybe slightly more glamorous term to replace "cabaret"?

Originally Posted by Zamira

So, to most dancers, is "oriental" basically a more respectable, maybe slightly more glamorous term to replace "cabaret"?

In the broad sense, yes, but not in the narrow. (In the narrow sense, I'd never use "oriental" to describe (say) a perfromance of Shik Shak Shok. But it could quite possibly be done as a cabaret performance - in those countries where the term doesn't mean something dark and nasty )

Not sure of the reasoning though (more respectable, more glamorous), as Yousry said - all dance terminology is French.

Originally Posted by zamora

ooops, ment M E dance in 60's, 70's
...OT...anyone have a quick fix for letters wearing off the keypad?

Sharpie pen!

I am missing an "e" "d" "c" and and "n"--with the "m" not far behind. My poor overused laptop.

Very interesting post !!!
Just thoughts on some of the posts:

Thank you for calling what is presented in States : Greek American Cabaret, and this because there is not even a 20% percentance of original greek tsifteteli in it.
I really love old style AmCab or Vintage Oriental :) if we call it.
For me when I think of it, come in mind Rhea of Greece (oltho her personality is larger than her dance lol) Athina Najat (greek-american living in Athens now) and Sarah Skinner (well I have seen them all dancing live and enjoyed it)
As for dear Morocco couldnt say her style Egyptian, egyptian influented yes, but there are still other things there :)
I could never dance AmCab style but really love watching it, in fact back in time, when didnt knew the different styles bellydance was = with amcab:) for me.
aaa and for me non - oriental (in the term of non arabic) is Tribal and Tribal fussion, both beloved styles.

Maria Aya :) Greece

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Yes,that's normal in Egyptian oriental music. (Oriental in the "gussied up for stage" sense!)

I too would like to hear more of Norma's reminscences about style! I always thought that "Egyptian" came more with Shareen el Safy and other US dancers who worked there in the 80s and brought it back, but this sounds like people were performing in an Egyptian style (or what they believed to be one) much earlier. And that clarifies for me why some oldschool dancers will talk about being "Egyptian style".

It always surprises me when I hear Jillina described as Egyptian style.It is an influence laid on top of glitzy showgirl for me. AND may a I repeat nothing wrong with it. But her dancing isn't like Dina or Randa or whoever from over there over there
The one I do think dances with a heavy Egyptian accent is Bozenka.

Originally Posted by MariaAya

Very interesting post !!!
Just thoughts on some of the posts:

Thank you for calling what is presented in States : Greek American Cabaret, and this because there is not even a 20% percentance of original greek tsifteteli in it.
I really love old style AmCab or Vintage Oriental :) if we call it.
For me when I think of it, come in mind Rhea of Greece (oltho her personality is larger than her dance lol) Athina Najat (greek-american living in Athens now) and Sarah Skinner (well I have seen them all dancing live and enjoyed it)
As for dear Morocco couldnt say her style Egyptian, egyptian influented yes, but there are still other things there :)
I could never dance AmCab style but really love watching it, in fact back in time, when didnt knew the different styles bellydance was = with amcab:) for me.
aaa and for me non - oriental (in the term of non arabic) is Tribal and Tribal fussion, both beloved styles.

Maria Aya :) Greece

Maria Aya..I grovel....smack my hand I left Greek out of my orientale catagory...cr.:

I do think what this thread has shown is the chasm in perception between American and European/Antipidean eyes regarding style. Interesting.

I think it would be safe to say that 'cabaret' means entertainment based dance in the Uk. It would be the style worked on for restaurants weddings and parties etc. it does not have a sleazy label but it is not considered art.
Arts organisations will not fund anything with 'cabaret' in the title unless it is packaged in a very clever way.
'Classical' describes the 'Badia' style, and the others are what they are (baladi, folk, saaidi, shaabi etc').
'Belly dance' is a generic term for anything that does not fit neatly into one box and fusion is anything that does not fit neatly into one box, but does not look like 'belly dance'.....
Get it??

Michaela, if you're interested in the history, The Best of George Abdo CD has a very imformative booklet that goes into some of this.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

The one I do think dances with a heavy Egyptian accent is Bozenka.

Yes! Didn't think of her initially for some reason, but you're right. I can't quite put my finger on what it is that makes it happen or where it comes from -- help? --but that's one of the things I really appreciate about her dancing.

Originally Posted by CFerhat

Hi Michaela,
From my experience with three Arab dance teachers who were all based in France, the terminology used was orientale, which subdivided into raks sharki and raks beledi; and then folkloric. Since you're based in Europe, you'll probably want to get a good feeling on what terms are used in your neck of the woods. As you can tell, it's hard to come to a complete agreement. :)

It seems to depict Middle Eastern origins. I am quite sure that Oriental = sharqi = style of dance.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

...

I do think what this thread has shown is the chasm in perception between American and European/Antipidean eyes regarding style. Interesting.

Thank you for giving me some European perspective DFerhat, and Lizajuk, MariaAya. My BD schooling comes from Japan, where I live, my teachers cv´s include mostly US and Egypt influences.
There are some interesting discussions on other threads going on at the moment, the one (or two) Shams has started where EU dancers took strong positions.
We are all so much interconnected that we should have common standards. (One of the reasons I started the thread about master teachers.) Many great EU dancers, and dancers from other corners of the world started learning bellydance in US, then established themselves elsewhere, even in Egypt, and well-known US dancers come to EU to teach Oriental dance, even Egyptian style, and vice versa teachers from ME hold workshops in US.
Maybe the chasm is due to US love for a novelty, innovation, while EU peoples prefer traditions ? This would explain why US teachers come here to teach Egyptian dance, and not American Classic.
I got too far away from the original topic. Maybe I had to go this far to realise
that the expression MED, is widely used for dances originating in ME, not the word Oriental. Shall we discuss about a meaningfullness of "non-MED" expression ?

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

I think it would be safe to say that 'cabaret' means entertainment based dance in the Uk. It would be the style worked on for restaurants weddings and parties etc. it does not have a sleazy label but it is not considered art.
Arts organisations will not fund anything with 'cabaret' in the title unless it is packaged in a very clever way.
'Classical' describes the 'Badia' style, and the others are what they are (baladi, folk, saaidi, shaabi etc').
'Belly dance' is a generic term for anything that does not fit neatly into one box and fusion is anything that does not fit neatly into one box, but does not look like 'belly dance'.....
Get it??

Getting it now.
Here, the word "cabaret" means a kind of variety show, or comedy and variety show, no naked people around. I am affraid the word "Oriental" here, is more loaded with s=x then "cabaret". That´s for my neck of the wood where I am at present.

Fusion does not look like belly dance ? Holly sh1t.

One theory about why American Teachers are teaching Egyptian style and not AmCab is because Egyptian style is, at the moment, the gold standard. plus several teachers / dancers have been dancing professionally in Egypt - Tamra-Henna, Sahra Saeeda and a few more - and therefore are more centered in that style. Plus, AmCab seems to be considered passe in some circles.

Personally, I miss the 5 - 7 part show which includes floorwork and juicy taqsims!

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by lizajuk

It always surprises me when I hear Jillina described as Egyptian style.It is an influence laid on top of glitzy showgirl for me. AND may a I repeat nothing wrong with it. But her dancing isn't like Dina or Randa or whoever from over there over there
The one I do think dances with a heavy Egyptian accent is Bozenka.

No, in my day, Egyptian style meant the classic dancers like Tahia Karioke, Samia Gamal, Fifi Abdo, Souheir Zaki, Nagwa Fouad. Especially the last 3 as those were the ones that people in that generation were most familar with as they were current dancers.

Oops actually this was in response to the post above about what we considered Egyptian style back in the day. Egyptian style now is too influenced with the folkloric and choreo. Not the same as what influenced us back then.

Originally Posted by Michaela

Getting it now.
Here, the word "cabaret" means a kind of variety show, or comedy and variety show, no naked people around. I am affraid the word "Oriental" here, is more loaded with s=x then "cabaret". That´s for my neck of the wood where I am at present.

Fusion does not look like belly dance ? Holly sh1t.

Yes that is right!
Cabaret is a form of family or adult entertainment. It has no meaning beyond giving people a good time. I am still not sure if people have worked out what the 'ART' of the dance is in the UK. I feel that people think it is presenting the same thing in a different, more artistic setting i.e. theatres, Arts centre etc.
I have a 'cabaret' show on as part of the Arab arts festival at a very well known art centre. I have managed to do this by insisting thyat this is the way dance it is presented all over the Middle East and it is cultural. It would otherwise never appear like this outside of this festival at this venue.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

It always surprises me when I hear Jillina described as Egyptian style.It is an influence laid on top of glitzy showgirl for me. AND may a I repeat nothing wrong with it. But her dancing isn't like Dina or Randa or whoever from over there over there
The one I do think dances with a heavy Egyptian accent is Bozenka.

It surprises me, too, and also that she gets invited to dance and teach *Egyptian* in Europe quite a lot. Maybe it is cheaper option for sponsors then real dancers from Egypt.
Tahiradancer is right, Egyptian is rather the golden standard now.

Back in the days in the Western world cabaret *was* a variety show with singing, dancing, comedy etc. so purely decent entertainment. Arabs actually took the word cabaret from the Western world and named their clubs cabaret as it provided entertainment.

Unfortunately cabarets have been brought down over the years due to alcohol (thus misbehaviour) as well as prostitution (or dancers offering their assets after their show). There are still some very classy cabarets where people go purely to watch classy bellydance and listen to great live music, but sadly there are just a handfull cabarets like this left worldwide.

B

Originally Posted by Michaela

Getting it now.
Here, the word "cabaret" means a kind of variety show, or comedy and variety show, no naked people around. I am affraid the word "Oriental" here, is more loaded with s=x then "cabaret". That´s for my neck of the wood where I am at present.