Thread: Would you call these "non-oriental" ?

American Cabaret
American Tribal
Tribal
Fusion

not sure how to define these dances.

Can we describe them as non-oriental ?
My reason is that they do not come from ME, were not created there.

How do we post a poll here ?

I think American Cabaret is still influenced enough by the ME (in costuming and music) to use Oriental when decribing it. American Tribal, Tribal, and Fusion, however, have both music and costuming that is more heavily influenced by so many non-ME factors that the term "Oriental" doesn't really apply as much (if at all, in some instances).

Not sure about the poll thing...

When I was a Rakkasah, someone said to me, Teach the people in the UK how to dance Vintage Oriental. They do beautiful Egyptian, but. . .

She4 was refering to AmCab as "Oriental", so I am thinking that in general, people feel that AmCab falls under the umbrella. But by her definition, Egyptian, doesn't. So it's all pooint of view.

That having been said, I agree that Tribal, and Fusion because of their stylings and that fact that, epecially in Fusion, many of the elements which make up "Oreintal" have been left behind in many, not all, cases, it is more difficult to place the "Oreintal" label on them.

{{{HUGS}}}

This is interesting and Tahira, you have raised a good point.

If it is called American Caberet then why is it Oriental... if it is Oriental then why is it called American cabaret? why would Uk dancers learn American cabaret? we have Uk cabaret! ha ha... but we dont have UK tribal do we? as far as I know, this was brought to us by Fat Chance. We have tribal fusion just to add the already complex mix.

Caroline -

American Cab is the original fusion! As Shira so elequently says, American Dancers went into the different ethnic neighborhoods and learned what ever the aunties were willing ot teach. This is where the very none authentic but well loved use of things such as sword and heavy use of Zills comes from. And AmCad does have it's own sense of movvement oragins. It tends to be more externally driven, closer to Lebonese and Turkish than Classic Egyptian. AND there is a heavier use of Greek influenced music.

As for WHY the UK dancers would want to learn AmCab, well, who knows. If someone is interested, I'd be happy to brush up my AmCab skills, otherwise I have two Egyptian teachers!

BTW - is there an UK equivalent of AmCab?

{{{HUGS}}}

we get REAL tired of so called american cab getting put on these lists.those of you to young to know, or anyone not into MF dance in the 60's,70's....what we did/do, was taught to us by ME immergrants who owned the venues we worked in.so, even if you call it"M E with green card taught", whatever, but there is a very non "white" aspect to all this, and if you were not part of this scene, ....be quiet! you do not get it!

ooops, ment M E dance in 60's, 70's
...OT...anyone have a quick fix for letters wearing off the keypad?

I know usage varies a lot, but in my experience and in my area, "oriental" often means "Middle Eastern Dance (for performance) that is not folkloric."

So raqs sharqi/beledi or the equivalent from Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, etc. = oriental, while
assaya/haggalah/Nubian/debke/etc. = folkloric
and tribal and most of what currently falls under the fusion umbrella are neither.

I hate to have to include a disclaimer, but just to be extra-careful and perfectly clear: this isn't a value judgment and I am not "dissing" tribal or fusion, much of which I LOVE. They just don't fit into these two categories the way I understand them.

Originally Posted by Zana

I hate to have to include a disclaimer, but just to be extra-careful and perfectly clear: this isn't a value judgment and I am not "dissing" tribal or fusion, much of which I LOVE. They just don't fit into these two categories the way I understand them.

Yes, it feels really loaded when we're trying to define things by saying what they're 'not.' And a convoluted way to go about categorizing.

I'm not sure I understand the point of this poll? It seems like it's bound to ruffle feathers, and I don't understand what it's meant to clarify.

I wondered, too. Seems very fuzzy to me, but perhaps that's partly a language -- as opposed to terminology -- issue?

(Oh, shoot. Now I need another disclaimer.)

I "do" languages for a living, so I'm programmed to think in those terms. No insult to native speakers of languages other than English in its many varieties is intended or implied.

Ah that could be it.

here, oriental refers to hmong, thai,cambodian all things asian.

And then there was the Parsee, in "How the Rhinoceros Got His Skin" . . . . "who lived on the shores of the Red Sea, and from whose hat the rays of the sun were reflected in more-than-Oriental splendor." Now can we say that was an authentic Middle Eastern hat?
Sorry.
Couldn't resist.
Naughty Rosette

I agree with Cory on this one.

I personally don't like the term "cabaret" being used for any form of belly dance because in Egypt cabarets were often fronts for prostitution, and in Europe they are strip clubs. So I prefer the term "American Classic", and I also like Artemis' term "Vintage Oriental".

Anyway, the American Classic style was created by immigrants who taught what they knew to Americans. Americans learned bits and pieces from Turkish dancers, Armenians, Lebanese, Egyptians, and others, and synthesized it into the dance style that was commonly done in the U.S. in the 1960's and 1970's. Although some American bits were added to it (such as extended veil work), the core movement vocabulary of American Classic comes from the Middle East and North Africa, and the music used to dance this style is traditional music from the region. The costuming also strongly resembles what was being worn over there, with the occasional American innovations (such as coin bra/belt sets).

So, I would say that American Classic *is* Oriental.

As for the other styles in the poll, I'll leave others to comment.

wow shira, thanks ! i learned not only from the family members who owed the venues, but the bands too!they would tell you what was done when, and with what rythem.they were bringing a part of the old country to their new home "hood".
a lot of these dances had already shared along the silk road, all the way to the east european caberets.
in los angles where i am from, the communities are still there somewhat .....persian jews are in westwood.european jews in the farefax.there is little ethopia, little saigon, little india and so on.
when people came here, they still wanted to be together in "little " villiages.

Originally Posted by Michaela

American Cabaret
American Tribal
Tribal
Fusion

not sure how to define these dances.

Can we describe them as non-oriental ?
My reason is that they do not come from ME, were not created there.

The term "Oriental" does not actually mean "of the (Middle) East" when used in this dance but rather refers to a sub-genre (from "danse orientale"). In its narrow definition this refers to dance as performed in the Egyptian Golden Age with full orchestrated music and the dance included a certain posture and quality of movement - arms lifted, well isolated, good use of floor space. It is also used as a broad term to mean what the public perceive as "belly dance" rather than other folkloric forms.

So I'd say AmCab would be "oriental" in at least the broader definition. And for some dancers and places also the narrower one.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

When I was a Rakkasah, someone said to me, Teach the people in the UK how to dance Vintage Oriental. They do beautiful Egyptian, but. . .

She4 was refering to AmCab as "Oriental", so I am thinking that in general, people feel that AmCab falls under the umbrella. But by her definition, Egyptian, doesn't.

I suspect she may have meant "Hilal style" rather than Egyptian style

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Caroline -

American Cab is the original fusion! As Shira so elequently says, American Dancers went into the different ethnic neighborhoods and learned what ever the aunties were willing ot teach. This is where the very none authentic but well loved use of things such as sword and heavy use of Zills comes from. And AmCad does have it's own sense of movvement oragins. It tends to be more externally driven, closer to Lebonese and Turkish than Classic Egyptian. AND there is a heavier use of Greek influenced music.

As for WHY the UK dancers would want to learn AmCab, well, who knows. If someone is interested, I'd be happy to brush up my AmCab skills, otherwise I have two Egyptian teachers!

BTW - is there an UK equivalent of AmCab?{{{HUGS}}}

I suppose years ago there was a kind of Middle Eastern interpretation which is still around which was just called belly dance. I say interpretation because it is a sort of mish mash of different moves assembled to Middle Eastern music.
Is this the same as Am cab? these days, we have access to more visiting teachers etc. and styles are becoming more defined and less fantasy based.

Classical here is based on the old style music and dances of the Egyptian golden era. Perhaps this is what is reffered to as Vintage Oriental?

Who is well known for am cab these days? i would be interested to take a look.
It is hard for me to work out what it is from just reading.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I suspect she may have meant "Hilal style" rather than Egyptian style

Don't get this, why "hilal style"? Yes I know who Soraya Hilal is but the UK is not full of dancers in this style.

Originally Posted by Candi

Don't get this, why "hilal style"? Yes I know who Soraya Hilal is but the UK is not full of dancers in this style.

Yes, far from it. They are few and far between these days!
Hilal is definately contemporary these days too.

Originally Posted by Candi

Don't get this, why "hilal style"? Yes I know who Soraya Hilal is but the UK is not full of dancers in this style.

Depends on what the person had seen - people do get stuck in pockets - and I have heard some Hilal style dancers refer to what they do as "Egyptian". Otherwise, her comment actually makes little sense.

OK, here's the deal as I see it based on my fairly extensive reading over the last year or so.

"Oriental" means "of the east", which is really meaningless. But the term carries with it profound implications of "easternness", and particularly Middle Easternness/North Africanness because of what "orient" meant at the time "oriental" and "dance" were put together.

Danse orientale/danse du ventre/oriental dance/belly dance as they've developed over the 20th century are transnational hybrid dance forms which *are representative of the Middle East and/or fantasies thereof*. They have a good chunk of Middle Eastern folk/dance in them. The music is largely Middle Eastern and has a ME sound to it. They evoke the Orient and/or *are directly from* the ME. (This is where it gets difficult!).

Thus, I say that Am Cab/Vintage Oriental and traditional ATS are definitely "oriental" in the broad sense of being ME dance infused performance styles that evoke the Orient through movement, music and costuming. ATS is less so, and I wouldn't personally call it oriental because it's group dance/evokes folk rather than sharqi. But it is definitely belly dance.

All local-style dance, professional and non, out of the ME/North Africa is "oriental" in the broad sense.

Some tribal fusion could be classed as oriental in the broad sense.

Most tribal fusion and contemporary tribal to western music is not oriental in any sense and in my view is also not really belly dance (though trad ATS/Gypsy Caravan still has more of a belly dance "look" to it and is more likely to be belly dance than, say, Urban Tribal are).

To confuse matters more, we just recently held a workshop with Tamra-henna of LA (who lived and danced in the Middle East for like 7 years) called Beledi vs. Oriental. We went over the same combinations using the different stylings for each...which to me indicates that folkloric dances are possibly not considered "Oriental" within in the ME?

ETA this is somewhat in accordance with Kashmir's definition, yes?

We went over the same combinations using the different stylings for each...which to me indicates that folkloric dances are possibly not considered "Oriental" within in the ME?

Yup, this boils down, I think, to the fact that Badia Masabni et al called what they offered raqs sharqi, ie oriental dance, to distinguish it from boring old beledi. Ironically, it was more westernised, to make it more "sophisticated". Oh, the confusion. So among Egyptian-style BDers we are much more likely to refer to oriental as lifted-posture, elegant, smaller, more downward movements, classical with veil etc, compared to beledi which is looser, earthier, less "refined".

Originally Posted by zamora

...OT...anyone have a quick fix for letters wearing off the keypad?

How about those little alphabet stickers? My daughter sticks those on all the piano keys to help her remember which is which.

Not only in Egypt. In Latin America as well, cabarets are considered sleazy clubs that feature sexual entertainment. The term "cabaretera" in spanish (which basically means, woman from a cabaret) is used to describe prostitutes or loose women.
Vintage Oriental sounds so much better, because in spanish we sometimes say Cabaret Americano as well, I wish there were a word for "vintage" in spanish.


Regards
Priscilla

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I personally don't like the term "cabaret" being used for any form of belly dance because in Egypt cabarets were often fronts for prostitution, and in Europe they are strip clubs. So I prefer the term "American Classic", and I also like Artemis' term "Vintage Oriental".

"Who is well known for am cab these days? i would be interested to take a look.
It is hard for me to work out what it is from just reading"
****your question really struck me...ah, so ladies....answer?********

Artemis Mourat is one, for sure.

Anaheed

Fahteim

Mesmera

Some would put Aunt Rocky there.

Ansuya

I'll have to look through my IAMED vids and see who I can identify there.

{{{HUGS}}}

Delilah.