Thread: Improv Help

So I have discovered that I can not improv to save my life. I know that getting good at it does involve time and experience but what other tips can you all give me for getting into the groove of it?

Map your music

The intro to Alf Leyla looks like this to me...

/ / / @
/ / / @
/ / / @ @@
/ / / @
/ / / @

////////@@@@@@
/////////@@@@@@@@@


In other words know your music by writing it down -using whatever method and symbols work for you. I hate choreo, but am a total geek about music mapping and have been for years. How many times does a musical phrase repeat itself? Where is the verse? Where is the chorus? How many 8 counts to get from a to b to c?

The point is - if you know your music that well, you are no longer in an ocean of music with out a bouey. You have a solid landscape to use in your journey. The footpaths become more familiar as you retrace them on paper and you will be confident that you can interpet what comes next...because you will know it by heart and soul.

Pay attention to the phrasing of the music as you hear it, especially if you have a chance to listen to it before dancing to it. Understanding that a piece of music has a phrase of, say, 8 measures that gets repeated twice means you know that if you do a step that takes one measure to do, you can do that step four times going in one direction, and then another four going in the other direction (or on one side, then on the other side, or turning clockwise, then counterclockwise). I find this repetition on the other side/other direction thing to be helpful in improv because it keeps my movements symmetrical, helps me cover the floor, and prevents my dancing from looking too "busy", like a collection of random movements. My teacher is something of an improv nazi, and I'm grateful to her for making us improv a full five-part routine at the end of pretty much every class. :)

I find this repetition on the other side/other direction thing to be helpful in improv because it keeps my movements symmetrical, helps me cover the floor, and prevents my dancing from looking too "busy", like a collection of random movements.

I wish I could remember what I just did on one side!!!!

I am also a well-known 'improv nazi'...:D! Improvisation is so important to this dance. Some people from Egypt I've spoken to, in fact, think that's what this dance IS.

I tell my students to listen to a song several times until they know it well; it helps for them to pick something they like already/think is catchy. I also, occasionally, let them dance to ONE Western dance song to get the idea across that it's meant to be fluid. Improv is my 'thing'. This is where you find the beauty of the dance, in my opinion.

I am also terrible at improv. I recently had a private lesson with the head of my studio, and she gave me some advice. It may or may not help you, as you may have different issues. But heck, at least you know for sure you're not alone in this!

Here's her advice:
* Don't wear yourself out keeping in constant motion. After every 2-3 bars of music, just pose for a bit. It gives you a breather and it gives the audience time to appreciate your pretty pose.
* Don't keep trying to change up your moves every couple of beats. Try doing the same thing a few times. This allows the audience to appreciate the movement, and it gives you time to figure out what you will do next.
* Make a list of a few go-to moves, ones that you can use when you start to panic and don’t know what to do next.
* Don’t focus too inwardly when you improv, keep your head up and your eyes on the audience. (I tend to look at the floor when I’m thinking, and improv makes me think a lot!)
* Listen to the music and use it to help you determine what you need to do.
* Try to mix things up a bit – do some moves that are mobile and some that are in place, do some with turns and some with level changes, some with sharp movements and some with smooth movements.
* Practice, practice, practice. Turn on some music and just dance to it. The more you do it, the better you’ll get.

Hope that helps you as it has been helping me!

It is the last 5 minutes of class where we improv that got me thinking about this. I guess the hardest part is not knowing what the song is in advance and it changes everyweek so I have no way of "preparing" for it. I am also a natural born thinker and I find myself I guess being to inner as mentioned above. I am constantly trying to think of what move I can do next but finding myself at a loss because I don't know what rythm is coming next. I like the idea of mapping the songs because it follows the way my brain works. What exactly do the / and @ represent?

Originally Posted by khalisah

I am also terrible at improv. I recently had a private lesson with the head of my studio, and she gave me some advice. It may or may not help you, as you may have different issues. But heck, at least you know for sure you're not alone in this!

Here's her advice:
* Don't wear yourself out keeping in constant motion. After every 2-3 bars of music, just pose for a bit. It gives you a breather and it gives the audience time to appreciate your pretty pose.
* Don't keep trying to change up your moves every couple of beats. Try doing the same thing a few times. This allows the audience to appreciate the movement, and it gives you time to figure out what you will do next.
* Make a list of a few go-to moves, ones that you can use when you start to panic and don’t know what to do next.
* Don’t focus too inwardly when you improv, keep your head up and your eyes on the audience. (I tend to look at the floor when I’m thinking, and improv makes me think a lot!)
* Listen to the music and use it to help you determine what you need to do.
* Try to mix things up a bit – do some moves that are mobile and some that are in place, do some with turns and some with level changes, some with sharp movements and some with smooth movements.
* Practice, practice, practice. Turn on some music and just dance to it. The more you do it, the better you’ll get.

Hope that helps you as it has been helping me!

That is very good advice. Too many of us try to continue moving moving moving, and pauses are needed to give the audience a chance to admire and breath. It is ok to repeat things, you do not need to throw out 1 of everything immediately either. Start with something basic, then add in a variation. Vary height, speed, direction, add a pause/pose. Have something, a move or even simple combo, that you can pull out without thinking, which will give you time to consider what's next. This is a very good list, thank you for writing it up.

What ever you want them to mean. It will be your own language to work out. Since Alf is so well known, I used it as an example, hoping you could "hear/see it" The /// are the 3 violin + drum beats I use as a symbol for taking 3 steps forward and the @ is for the standing undulation where the violin sounds alone. You dont have to go into that kind of detail about the actual steps and moves, thats too much like choreo! I was just hoping you would recognize the method. It really works. Dont dance...dont move ... dont do anything till you have maped the music on paper..not just in your head. You will begin to see the song as a pttern that makes sense to you - visually. I dont like the idea of asking beginers to improv to unfamiliar music. It erodes confidence - of which you have little to spare at this point. As you become more familiar with the phrasing of ME music...it becomes easier to do this to totally unfamiliar songs, but that takes a while. I stopped listening to western music 6 years ago...and it has really made a difference. I am an old woman and I needed a really steep learning curve to get me to speed before I died of old age!

ETA: Since I didn't realize Linny's question was improv-ing during class, rather than performance, I think my question was too off-topic for the thread. I'll start a different one.

For me...the visual learner....the same solution. Knowledge is confidence and confidence is the key to relaxation and the ablity to allow the music to direct you. Improv for me is the soul and the art of Bd.

Anala - the Alf Leyla is brilliant. Like morse code for bellydance music. Thank you!

Originally Posted by Linnyg

It is the last 5 minutes of class where we improv that got me thinking about this. I guess the hardest part is not knowing what the song is in advance and it changes everyweek so I have no way of "preparing" for it. I am also a natural born thinker and I find myself I guess being to inner as mentioned above. I am constantly trying to think of what move I can do next but finding myself at a loss because I don't know what rythm is coming next. I like the idea of mapping the songs because it follows the way my brain works. What exactly do the / and @ represent?

You're not talking going on stage and improvising to a song you know, but rather dancing to music you may or may not have heard before?

I think these things will help: improve your technique, because that's the basis from which everything else builds on; listen to Arabic music as often as you can (in the car, while doing the housework, instead of TV...) because the patterns found in them are used over and over again; and, when in class, close your eyes and FEEL the music instead of trying to dance to it. Everyone else is just as self-conscious as you are at this point in class, I'm sure, so don't worry about what others are doing...just get into your own groove and see what comes out!

Please dont think I get that detailed about it. For me it will be a water color -not an oil painting. Of course you could use symbols for moves...but I like to use the symbols for the way the music "feels" to me and of couse to show the repeating patterns in the music that I just wouldnt know about just by listening. I have to see it on paper to be able to go..."oh look this phrase repeats itself 4 times thru out the song...perhaps I might try to do the same set of moves for each". Lightbulb!!!

I start beginners with a foundation in improv, because I feel that improvisation is at the heart of this dance. I teach choreography later. That's simply my method.

Originally Posted by nasila

You're not talking going on stage and improvising to a song you know, but rather dancing to music you may or may not have heard before?

I think these things will help: improve your technique, because that's the basis from which everything else builds on; listen to Arabic music as often as you can (in the car, while doing the housework, instead of TV...) because the patterns found in them are used over and over again; and, when in class, close your eyes and FEEL the music instead of trying to dance to it. Everyone else is just as self-conscious as you are at this point in class, I'm sure, so don't worry about what others are doing...just get into your own groove and see what comes out!

Love your advice, Nasila. Improv does not come out of nowhere, or out of one's butt; instead, it comes from knowing technique, patterns in music (like the music map!), patterns in movement...and all of that comes with lots and lots of practice!

Originally Posted by nasila

You're not talking going on stage and improvising to a song you know, but rather dancing to music you may or may not have heard before?

I think these things will help: improve your technique, because that's the basis from which everything else builds on;

Becoming familiar with well-known music is very important, but I think Nasila's "I-know-this-so-well-I-can-do-this-in-my-sleep" technique idea is the key, especially when working with music you don't know well. And, just to confuse the issue, the song you're dancing to tonight, even if you are familiar with it, will not be exactly the same as you've heard it before . . . it might be shorter, longer, have accents you've not heard or, conversely, not have accents you're expecting, etc. You have to really pay attention to the music, which means you can't focus nearly as much on your technique, hence the need to be well-versed in the movements you intend to use.

Dance, dance dance! Get your technique down solidly and you'll be able to hear the music better, which is what makes good improv-ers, good!

Deborah

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I start beginners with a foundation in improv, because I feel that improvisation is at the heart of this dance. I teach choreography later. That's simply my method.

Me, too, BreaMorgiane. I give them combinations (say a sassy walk into a chasse (sp) into a walking hip lift); we drill the combo with a specific number of counts, but after that, they're on their own, which scares them a whole lot (it would me, too!) When the beginners do their improv, I usually give them a simple song without a lot of changes. Then we use that same song and show how those few changes can be worked (well, after we go over the music 50 times until a few of them can recognize that there actually are changes in the music).

Deborah

Deborah: This sounds pretty close to my method as well. I also will take them through a song and call out different movements to get them accustomed to not knowing what they are going to do next. It helps them understand how to interpret the music as well as get used to fluid transitioning.

Improv is the most important part of this dance, and choreography comes second. You can always dance if you know how to improv.

Originally Posted by anala

Please dont think I get that detailed about it. For me it will be a water color -not an oil painting. Of course you could use symbols for moves...but I like to use the symbols for the way the music "feels" to me and of couse to show the repeating patterns in the music that I just wouldnt know about just by listening. I have to see it on paper to be able to go..."oh look this phrase repeats itself 4 times thru out the song...perhaps I might try to do the same set of moves for each". Lightbulb!!!

I like the mapping it out method. I am going to give this a try this weekend and see what I can get from it. I am very visual as well.

Originally Posted by nasila

You're not talking going on stage and improvising to a song you know, but rather dancing to music you may or may not have heard before?

I think these things will help: improve your technique, because that's the basis from which everything else builds on; listen to Arabic music as often as you can (in the car, while doing the housework, instead of TV...) because the patterns found in them are used over and over again; and, when in class, close your eyes and FEEL the music instead of trying to dance to it. Everyone else is just as self-conscious as you are at this point in class, I'm sure, so don't worry about what others are doing...just get into your own groove and see what comes out!

I listen to it so much my family believes I am officially addicted to it and may be just a little off center at this point! I have gotten to the point where I can just about anticipate most of the stuff on the companion CD to Soniaand Issam's (sp) "The art of the drum solo" so I can see what you are all talking about.

Thank you to all of you who said that I don't have to constantly be moving as well. Today while in class I really watched my teacher and she does pause here and there (just more gracefully than I )

You all always give me the greatest advice, thank you sooooo much!

wow...drum solo improv...you know you are asking a lot of yourself there, dont you? Perhaps finding a song with more "emotional content" to work with might be helpful.

I suck at improv too
I can do "the monkey dance" (choreo - monkey see/monkey do)
I KNOW how to move/dance - and have no prob when is just myself, but when it comes to improving in front of others, my mind just blanks...

My Fusion instructor has started our advance class each taking turns leading the class in an entrance move, a travelling move, and then a stationary move. And we are beginning a "Solo Improv & Technique" at the studio.
(Hopefully it will help me learn to just do it)

Great stuff here!!! I started out with troupe choreographies and then solo choreographies, but now I find solo semi-choreographed semi-improv so much more interesting. Taking the plunge and going for it was like a big breathe of fresh air. I think the easiest way to ease into it is in restaurant kind of setting where you can start with a choreography and morph it as you move around the room between tables. If you the choreography well you can drop in and out of it as you travel and interact with the audience.

Keep in mind that I am not a pro and don't get to dance in restaurants often, but I really find the more intimate setting very rewarding.

Souzan

Related question:

When we all go out, just dancing -- you know, bopping around the dance floor at a club -- aren't we just improv-ing, in a sense?

Maybe taking some of the stress out of practicing improv -- instead, just dancing for the sake of dancing -- might be a way to shake those scarey improv thoughts from our heads.

And when we do practice improv, maybe it means that we don't always know what to do next -- I certainly don't; heck, I've been known to stand in my living room and ask the music exactly what it thinks I ought to be doing, 'cuz nothin's comin' to mind . . . ..c:: Again, in situations like that, it really helps to have strong technique so that even if I don't know what to do, I can at least do something!

Deborah

I start teaching improv skills to my beginners the second week of class. At the beginning of class we do a structured improv with counts based on moves we've learned already (I improv, they follow me :)), and at the end of the class they improv on their own.

I ask them to turn away from the mirror, listen to the music, and shift between two moves which I or they will have decided upon earlier. I dim the lights and busy myself with admin work as I've reassured them that this is their time and I'm not watching them :) The first session is an improv to one minute of music and this is increased with each class.

As the dancers progress through the semester and onto upper levels, then they can incorporate more into their improv, i.e. more moves, transitions, traveling steps, level and directional changes, emotional and physical dynamics, and stage presence. But they all start with just getting comfy and moving to the music.

Happy improvving!


Khalida

Originally Posted by anala

Map your music

The intro to Alf Leyla looks like this to me...

/ / / @
/ / / @
/ / / @ @@
/ / / @
/ / / @

////////@@@@@@
/////////@@@@@@@@@


In other words know your music by writing it down -using whatever method and symbols work for you. I hate choreo, but am a total geek about music mapping and have been for years. How many times does a musical phrase repeat itself? Where is the verse? Where is the chorus? How many 8 counts to get from a to b to c?

The point is - if you know your music that well, you are no longer in an ocean of music with out a bouey. You have a solid landscape to use in your journey. The footpaths become more familiar as you retrace them on paper and you will be confident that you can interpet what comes next...because you will know it by heart and soul.

Great tip - we just started doing that this year in my teacher's "advanced/pro" class. I love it. I used to learn my music by listening to it obsessively, but being able to look at it on paper has been a whole new world. Not to mention, actually knowing I get 4 measures to do something before it changes.

So how does your system note? I'd love to compare notes. Does the / mean hard/staccato and the @ mean soft/round? I learned a way of doing it that doesn't distinguish between texture, but does distinguish between different segments - and I would add my own notes to the side about rhythm/feeling.
Like my Alf Leyla goes
A A A1 A1 A2 A2
B B
(for example - that's just the beginning)


Later Note: - Sorry I just realized you already explained your system. Still, that's what I got out of it without even knowing your system so I guess it's a pretty good system!

Originally Posted by anala

wow...drum solo improv...you know you are asking a lot of yourself there, dont you? Perhaps finding a song with more "emotional content" to work with might be helpful.

I started out with my first performance being a drum solo. To me, it was easier to improv to because you just had to listen to the drum, no other musical instruments to confuse me. So I can see where she's going here! I think there are definitely two types of dancers (at least) - those who think drum solos are easier and those that think melody-driven songs are easier.

Anyway, on drum solos, my teacher always used to remind our class - if you don't know what to do, remember you can go back to your basics, hip bumps, hip drops, the move she calls "Egyptian Nailed". Something about knowing that you have something to fall back on is mentally reassuring, I think.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

When we all go out, just dancing -- you know, bopping around the dance floor at a club -- aren't we just improv-ing, in a sense?

Absolutely! It's funny how some of my students are terrified at the thought of improv-ing in class, yet get up and shake their booty quite comfortably during the open dance part of haflas.

One night, I had a private lesson with my teacher where were focused a lot on making my arms and hands less stiff looking. Later that night, I went to see her dance at a restaurant, and she joined me on the dance floor for some social dancing after changing out of her costume. At one point she leaned over and said, "Look at your arms! That's what they should look like all the time!" ..l;,

I will use the keyboard a lot as I cant spell...and I cant read my own writing.

Just banging away while the music is playing and pretending the keyboard is an instrument yeilds pretty good results.