Thread: Shaabi or Pop?

I liked that Shaabi clip, love the attitude! I'm taking notes from this thread, I want to ask some other dancers in my area about what they think about the subject.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Jeel indeed means "generation". If I understand correctly, it has become associated with pop music in the sense of meaning "younger generation" music - ie, music that the younger generation would use when social dancing.

Thanks, Shira!

Originally Posted by Mark Balahadia

Hahahahahha...this is very true! Polite weddings are no fun anyway ..g.:

Yeah, we should try to avoid the polite ones as much as possible. Should we make a pact only to attend street weddings and raucous indoor ones?

ok, then what defines "rye", ri, rhi ?..was that "the " term before shaabi?

Originally Posted by jencUK

Subsequent searches for Shaabi have alas only found routines in bedlah sans attitude

Here's Tarik's sha'bi routine, the one he taught some of us in Boston a couple of weeks ago:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giGSeb1Hgfs]YouTube - Egyptian Dance-Shabbi Choreog: Sa'ad il Sughir Abd lelah[/ame]

He told us the words were a man telling the boys that they have to be upright men, real servants of Allah. Anybody can go to the gym and get muscles (you can tell where that part is ..g.: ) but you have to strive to be a good man. So some sha'bi has a straightforward, positive message. In Tarik's opinion, this would be a fine song for dancing to at parties.

Originally Posted by zamora

ok, then what defines "rye", ri, rhi ?..was that "the " term before shaabi?

The way I understand it, rai arose out of Algeria, whereas the flavor of shaabi done in Egypt arose within Egypt. (I'm not familiar with what sort of shaabi might be in other parts of North Africa.)

Originally Posted by Mark Balahadia

At least with Egyptian sha3bi, there is a tendency to use car honking. Karim Nagi explained to me that it's common after soccer games for people to honk their cars while blasting their music.

Nancy Ajram is not Al-jeel really. Although a lot of her music is in Egyptian dialect she has this odd tendency to us retro 80's type sounds in her music.

What would Nancy be? I mean, didn't Al-Jeel start in the 80s anyway?

now I thought balady and shaabi were inextricably connected. Actually I heard that Shaabi basically is Balady, but with singers. Now it seems like some see a separation? Like Balady is traditional folk music and Shaabi is gritty ghetto music?

Originally Posted by arielarielariel

interesting thread, I've been wondering about this myself...

curious though...How do Arab audiences feel about dancers dancing to chaabi vs. al jeel songs? Are different songs/singers appropriate/inappropriate for certain venues? (are those questions worth asking?)

Well, I've used both despite my confusion over definitions and genre names.

It totally comes down to knowing your crowd. Al Jeel is a little more safe, but Shaabi is a huge hit when you match the right song to the right crowd. It is important to know what a song is about one way or the other. Some shaabi is more raunchy than others.

well, if we're posting Shaabi dance clips, I learned this one from Tito:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khgm3QSfj1Q]YouTube - Tito @ the Las Vegas IBDC 2007-4[/ame]

When I was in Egypt during holiday festivals and celebrations, shaabi (Hakim, LOTS OF Saad) blasted through the streets, parks, and on the falucia boats and at the wedding parties I saw. Nancy, Amr, and lots of Elissa and others were played at more discos and hangout areas. I like Shaabi a lot better.

Originally Posted by shems

now I thought balady and shaabi were inextricably connected. Actually I heard that Shaabi basically is Balady, but with singers. Now it seems like some see a separation? Like Balady is traditional folk music and Shaabi is gritty ghetto music?

While I wouldn't argue that they *aren't* connected, it is my understanding that they follow two different paths of development and intent

This is interesting timing as I was just pondering this the other day. Shaabi, Rai, Jeel?

It reminds me of how certain extreme forms of music stayed out of the mainstream for an amount of time here in the west, such as rap or punk rock. Sooner or later elements from that genre work there way into mainstream music, then less extreme examples actually cross over onto the charts. This can happen in either order.

I wonder if a similar scenario exists in the Middle East and North Africa.

spiced

I'm reading all this and trying to apply it to American music, something like Shaabi=Eminem/ Ice-T(rap), Nirvana/U2(alternative), AC/DC/ Alice Cooper(Rock) and pop or al jeel would be MC Hammer/Will Smith (rap), Dave Matthews/The Smiths(alternative), Van Halen/Rolling Stones (rock) does that make sense? Being that I don't live in that culture on a daily basis, I can only apply it to my culture. Not speaking the language makes it even harder to determine the difference

Originally Posted by zamora

ok, then what defines "rye", ri, rhi ?..was that "the " term before shaabi?

Does anyone know what, if any, connection there is between Rai and West Indies Reggae are? I'd heard that there was some connection.

spiced

So if I were trolling Ebay for compilation albums and video clip VCDs, and was looking for sha'abi, what artists should I be looking out for?

I've already got both of the Saad albums and the Hoda album that were released in the US, so I'm really looking for music that's not available on US domestic CD's.

Originally Posted by antimony

So if I were trolling Ebay for compilation albums and video clip VCDs, and was looking for sha'abi, what artists should I be looking out for?

I've already got both of the Saad albums and the Hoda album that were released in the US, so I'm really looking for music that's not available on US domestic CD's.

Rather than looking for a specific Artist, I think you would have better luck doing a sha'abi or sha3bi search and usually a mix CD may pop up. The only two Artists that you may be able to search for that I know of are Mohamed Sa3d and Shabaan (ETA in addition to the 2 you already mentioned), but there are probably some others. Most of them aren't "known" in mainstream Egyptian music industry so unless you know someone in Egypt that can send you a few CD's it's gonna be very difficult. Dee Dee of Little Egypt is also a really good source. She always has some of the latest mix Sha3bi CD's.

They usually are unsigned artists and don't have distributors so it's kind of the same thing as the local artists we have here in the Bay area that are locally famous and sell their CD's on the streets, thru local music stores, by getting a song on a mix CD with a artist that does have a distributer or online like myspace Also you may try contacting some of the music stores directly like Rashid's to see if he can get something for you.....

Originally Posted by Shaunte

Most of them aren't "known" in mainstream Egyptian music industry so unless you know someone in Egypt that can send you a few CD's it's gonna be very difficult.

That's why I was hoping Ebay might be a good source. When I've bought compilations on Ebay before, they've been very dodgy home-burned CD's - obvious bootlegs. I was hoping that some of the non-mainstream sold-on-the-street type compilations might turn up on there occasionally, but it sounds like from what you're saying that maybe not? That's a shame. Well, at least there's still plenty of fun stuff to buy, even if it's all just mainstream pop. :Abiggrin:

Originally Posted by shems

now I thought balady and shaabi were inextricably connected. Actually I heard that Shaabi basically is Balady, but with singers. Now it seems like some see a separation? Like Balady is traditional folk music and Shaabi is gritty ghetto music?

As I see it, shaabi is a type of beledi. All shaabi is beledi - but not all beledi is shaabi.

Originally Posted by antimony

That's why I was hoping Ebay might be a good source. When I've bought compilations on Ebay before, they've been very dodgy home-burned CD's - obvious bootlegs. I was hoping that some of the non-mainstream sold-on-the-street type compilations might turn up on there occasionally, but it sounds like from what you're saying that maybe not? That's a shame. Well, at least there's still plenty of fun stuff to buy, even if it's all just mainstream pop. :Abiggrin:

I was saying in the beginning of that post you can try putting in Egyptian Shaabi, Sha'abi, or sha3bi (which usually yields better results for my in general) and you may find something. If you're using specific artist names to search for you may not have as much luck.

Originally Posted by kashmir

As I see it, shaabi is a type of beledi. All shaabi is beledi - but not all beledi is shaabi.

Yes, that's how I understand it too

Originally Posted by kashmir

As I see it, shaabi is a type of beledi. All shaabi is beledi - but not all beledi is shaabi.

Well yeah, in the sense that it's All baladi. If it's Egypt then it's baladi... baladi is Egypt and so forth.

Originally Posted by spicedjellybeans

Does anyone know what, if any, connection there is between Rai and West Indies Reggae are? I'd heard that there was some connection.

spiced

Rai kind of grew out of Algerian shaabi styles, but it drew on influences from Julio Iglesias to Frank Sinatra and everything in between for a modern edge. I researched rai a few years ago, and I don't remember anything specifically about reggae at the moment, but that's not saying much

However, I know many songs have a definite reggae sound. Knowing that reggae became very popular around the same time rai was being introduced to French airwaves, I'm not surprised that Algerian artists would use a trendy sound for their own music. Additionally, reggae and rai have very similar lyrical themes, so I wouldn't be surprised if rai artists paid homage to or drew from a comparable musical movement.

I've listened to many African songs that feel completely reggae / dance hall in the tempo and rhythms played. The cross cultural polination would not be hard to connect, I think.

France colonized parts of the Caribbean as well as North Africa, so in Paris for example it's not unusual to see collaboration between musicians from the former colonies.

Great points on Rai and Reggae!

What a great thread!

Originally Posted by Aradia

I'm reading all this and trying to apply it to American music, something like Shaabi=Eminem/ Ice-T(rap), Nirvana/U2(alternative), AC/DC/ Alice Cooper(Rock) and pop or al jeel would be MC Hammer/Will Smith (rap), Dave Matthews/The Smiths(alternative), Van Halen/Rolling Stones (rock) does that make sense? Being that I don't live in that culture on a daily basis, I can only apply it to my culture. Not speaking the language makes it even harder to determine the difference

To me it's like the difference between Ella Fitzgerald and Etta James. Ella can swing but she's a proper lady. Etta might be classy in her own way but she is raunchy and gritty (if you've ever seen her live, you know what I mean about raunchy). Their music comes from the same roots and they can sing the same songs sometimes but there's a world of difference in how they'll sing them.

One thing I've noticed about shaabi is that *some* upper-class Egyptians think that the music of this genre is beneath them. Ie, they view Hakim and other shaabi musicians as being low-class and uncouth. I think it's *partly* because some shaabi songs are indeed uncouth and gritty, but I also think Egypt's class system is contributing to this. Ie, the preference that the upper classes have of avoiding mingling with the lower classes.