Thread: origins of tambourine bellydance..

gypsy? or what?
any genuine tambourine bellydance video?
thank youuu

I don't know. At my school we do a tambourine dance, and it's very fast and folkloric. Maybe Roma, maybe Greek. I think it's folkloric, and many traditions do it.

I believe I read repeatedly that adding a tambourine to bellydance is a purely theatrical, Western invention.

The dance in the clip I posted recently was inspired somewhat by both Dalia Carella's Dunyavi Gypsy and Alessandra Belloni's Southern Italian tambourine style, plus the fact that I am a riqq (Arabic tambourine) player. Mostly the influence was West Coast American-style belly dance, with its use of props and ethnic costuming. That's why I call it an interpretive dance, I don't like to use the term Gypsy for something that isn't authentic. However, a Roma woman at that performance gave me a very great compliment on the dance, she loved it.

Once you start messing around with a tambourine and belly dance steps, it kind of just happens, there are certain things you do that fit with the tambourine. I just went with what worked. I'm still developing the repertoire of steps for this dance, this was only the third time I've performed with the tambourine.

edited to add: One of my goals for the dance was to actually play the tambourine as a musical instrument during the dance.

I would be interested in any information or clips about "real ethnic" tambourine dancing, too.

A google search yields dozens of Christian "praise" dances with tambourines, who knew? I also found this, which I like a lot but doesn't "prove" anything. Her "costume" looks vaguely Turkish to me. The title is Dancing Girl with Tambourine, by August Renoir, painted in 1909 and considered by him an important work. There is a companion painting of a dancing girl with castanets. Could it be a Spanish dance?

I've been noodling around on Google, found references to tambourine dancing in the Old Testament (Exodus, Miriam and the women danced with tambourines), and this: history6, an article about history of belly dance. An excerpt:

There is no "Gypsy tambourine dance". The last category particularly upsets Morocco (Carolina Dinicu Varga) who is a full-blooded Roma. Having seen the persecution of her people first-hand, she is vehement on the subject: "I've never (and probably never will) dance with a tambourine. We don't do it. It's an instrument, played by a part of the band. On those rare occasions when we do use one, it's almost always a mazhar and in Egypt or some other Near/mideastern venue, and it might be used to collect money/tips, as it is onstage in Egypt and by all the non-Gypsy dancers."

So while there is historical precedent for dancing with tambourines (of course, it's a natural), it's not Rom. It may well be Jewish (Sephardic Jews lived in Spain), Spanish, or Italian, though. And definitely vaudevillian.

Creative belly dancers added it to their routines at some point.

Please note that I used Sephardic music and contemporary original music for my piece, not Rom music, because I did not want to offend any Roma people.

This is a great clip of the Lebanese dancer Amani dancing with a tambourine. She is hypnotizing.
[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=rDsuJ4XNxcI]YouTube - Amani from Lebanon**Tambourine**[/ame]

I have done quite a bit of research about this when I created a tambourine choreography. In short:

- The tambourine is a very ancient Middle Eastern instrument. As mentioned before there are several references linking tambourines and dancing in the bible. But it's not always written clearly if the women danced and played the tambourine at the same time or seperately.

- Nope, not "Gypsy" dances with tambourines. There are some Turkish Rom who dance with a bell ring - don't know what exactly it's called in English, kind of like a tambourine without the skin. But there's no real Gypsy tambourine dance (also confirmed by Laurel Grey).

- The inspiration for the tambourine dances we do nowadays (for example also in ballett) comes most likely from the Italian Tarantella. Google for pictures of Tarantella and you will see what I mean.

- So there is no authentic bellydance with a tambourine but it's a combination that makes a lot of sense from a geographical or musical point of view.

It's a great prop to play around with, so have fun with it! Just announce it properly as a fantasy dance.

MEISSOUN

Amani´s "El Hob Koulou" probably inspired Viktoriya to make this choreo:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nolLaUhx_SM&feature=PlayList&p=A6AD296AAEA 8B99E&index=3]YouTube - Gypsy Belly Dance w/ Tambourine by Viktoriya Bellydance[/ame]

Tambourine to Oum Kalthoum,same-same?;)

Thanks for posting the Amani clip, Melania, that is awesome! I like her costume, too.

Originally Posted by meissoun

I have done quite a bit of research about this when I created a tambourine choreography. In short:

- The tambourine is a very ancient Middle Eastern instrument. As mentioned before there are several references linking tambourines and dancing in the bible. But it's not always written clearly if the women danced and played the tambourine at the same time or seperately.

- Nope, not "Gypsy" dances with tambourines. There are some Turkish Rom who dance with a bell ring - don't know what exactly it's called in English, kind of like a tambourine without the skin. But there's no real Gypsy tambourine dance (also confirmed by Laurel Grey).

- The inspiration for the tambourine dances we do nowadays (for example also in ballett) comes most likely from the Italian Tarantella. Google for pictures of Tarantella and you will see what I mean.

- So there is no authentic bellydance with a tambourine but it's a combination that makes a lot of sense from a geographical or musical point of view.

It's a great prop to play around with, so have fun with it! Just announce it properly as a fantasy dance.

MEISSOUN

I think most English speakers would call the "bell ring" a tambourine. Is it a wooden circle with metal jingles placed around it? Like a tambourine in every way except there is no drum head on it? If so, then that could be the origin of the stereotype of Gypsy tambourine dancing.

Originally Posted by heneras

gypsy? or what?
any genuine tambourine bellydance video?
thank youuu

I believe you can see the dancers/musicians on Egyptian pharaonic-era wall paintings are using tambourines.

Originally Posted by emma-bessa

Amani´s "El Hob Koulou" probably inspired Viktoriya to make this choreo:

YouTube - Gypsy Belly Dance w/ Tambourine by Viktoriya Bellydance

Tambourine to Oum Kalthoum,same-same?;)

Actually, I would desagree. I've seen a lot of Russian dancers use tambourine, in fact I've asked to dance with it at a few Russian weddings. I've seen a few Russian Gypsy dancers that used tambourines in their performances, they of course had no connection with belly dance. So I think that Viktoriya's insiration may be Russian gypsy dancers, at least I see a lot of it in her moves and jumps.

Thank you for the input Kateryna!

I thought it looked similar in style,and I have only seen Amani&Viktoriya dance with a tambourine to Oum Kalthoum.

So Russian romas dance with tambourines,do you think they do it because of stereotypes?Do they smack the hips with the tambourine?

Emma

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

I believe you can see the dancers/musicians on Egyptian pharaonic-era wall paintings are using tambourines.

I'm pretty sure Sahra Saeeda said they were frequently played by the Awalam women, and it was a tradition carried on by the Ghawazee decendents of the Awalam after they were banned from Cairo. Many Orientalist paintings picture dancing women with tambourines...

Harem paintings

Originally Posted by emma-bessa

Thank you for the input Kateryna!

I thought it looked similar in style,and I have only seen Amani&Viktoriya dance with a tambourine to Oum Kalthoum.

So Russian romas dance with tambourines,do you think they do it because of stereotypes?Do they smack the hips with the tambourine?

Emma

It is possible that it's a stereotype. I actually just went through my moms library of old movies and found some old Russian movies depicting Roma culture. Don't see any tambourines. Beautiful dancing though and a lot of hair tossing and shoulder shimmies. Perhaps when they bring it on-stage they feel the need to appeal to GP sort of like we do.
I was more commenting on the inspirational source earlier though. Viktoriya's dance just looked familiar to me the first time I saw it. And I hadn't seen Amani's dance by then.

I thought it would be time to dig out old e-mails

Laurel Victoria Gray (I think on the MED dance list):

"Over the years in America, bellydancers have occasionally performed dances mistakenly labeled as `Gypsy`. Many of these dancers had all the good intentions in the world, but unfortunately were ignorant of what `real` Gypsy dance is. For example, the use of tambourines during these fantasy Gypsy dances. Nowhere in my research have I ever encountered evidence that `real` Gypsies ever danced w/ tambourines. It has been postulated that this was a misinterpretation of glamour photos that were posed shots taken by and for Europeans. Because the members of the band often played tambourines, it is surmised that the photogs simply had the dancers pose w/ the instruments to make a more interesting photo. This is only one example of many that have caused a
misinterpretation of what `real` Gypsy dance is in America."

I also remember her writing that she asked Russian Roma about tambourine dances and they just laughed at the idea.

Artemisia Mourat wrote to me:
"Americans think there is a "Turkish Gypsy Tambourine
Dance" but this was made up by Americans who imitated
what they thought the Romany (Gypsy) dances were like.
They copied the stereotypic illustrations and the
movies. There is no such thing in Turkey but Turkish
Roma play Tambourine with the band. There is one
reference of a dancer who finishes her dance and ends
with a pose that involves holding a tambourine. I
can't conclude she was dancing with it. This was a
court dancer in a wealthy Turkish harem and the
observer walked in on the ending pose. The Russian
Roma do have a dance they do with tambourines and
Laurel knows about it. I heard of a possible lead
among the Serbian Roma but this is very vague thus far
and unsubstantiated."
*****a second message*****

"I think it is fine to do a "fantasy"
tambourine dance. As for the Russian dance, I have
seen video footage of them dancing with tambourines in
a tourist show. This may have been made up for the
tourists. I would certainly bow to Laurel's expertise."

MEISSOUN

Video :: Nour-Orientaldance.com

This is a short cut of Nour''s dance with tambourine.
Lena

Oh, that clip of Nour is too short!
Here's another tambourine belllydance clipfrom Bellysema:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjqRSDGplAI]YouTube - BellySema @ Rakkasah 2008 (1) Tambourine Longa 3-16-2008[/ame]

this from Sahra:

"About the tambourines: Awalem played them, but as instruments, not as dance accessories. Sometimes I would see them be played like a tablah - held with the left hand and hit with tecs and dums with the right. Also I have seen Awalem play them more delicately; the tambourine is held upright, often somewhat high, even overhead. Both hands (with thumbs and forefingers) hold the tambourine at it's lower edge, so that the little cymbals of the tambourine are played and are the main sound. Sometimes a subtle dum is played with the right hand, but then back to only cymbal sound. She may also dance under this. But it is not swung around and hit on the hips, etc."

I think she's describing a riqq, yes?

Originally Posted by nasila

this from Sahra:

"About the tambourines: Awalem played them, but as instruments, not as dance accessories. Sometimes I would see them be played like a tablah - held with the left hand and hit with tecs and dums with the right. Also I have seen Awalem play them more delicately; the tambourine is held upright, often somewhat high, even overhead. Both hands (with thumbs and forefingers) hold the tambourine at it's lower edge, so that the little cymbals of the tambourine are played and are the main sound. Sometimes a subtle dum is played with the right hand, but then back to only cymbal sound. "

I think she's describing a riqq, yes?

Sounds like the riqq, yes. Also, sounds like the same technique for playing it that I learned from Mary Ellen Donald when I went to her for instruction in how to play the riqq as a musical instrument rather than just waving it around as a dance prop.

and how Souhail taught it in Riqq class. :)

Ozgen teaches dance with tambourine. I shall try to find out more. He's Turkish, so maybe there is something in the Turkish theory, but I have no idea if he's teaching something authentic or something theatrical a la Reda.

Interesting for lots of reasons, but for restaurant dancers in the UK it could be very useful and if I were still doing restaurants I would be doing a tambourine slot at the end of my set (not if I was doing something like an Egyptian wedding). I am going to go a bit off topic now but ...

In the UK the currency is pounds. The smallest note we have is the £5 note (pretty much ten dollars). Our actual pounds are heavy chunky little coins. Tipping isn't, as I understand it, as widespread here as it is in places where smaller amounts come in notes. Tipping does happen, but not as widely as over in the US, but perhaps the currency isn't the reason. I'm interested to know actually what sort of denominations you US gals and guys are tipped with.

Anyway tambourines hold lots of pound coins and rattle irritatingly until the dancer goes away .... and it works, I've done it at a charity do.