Thread: Teachers of vintage styles?

Hi all,

I've recently been told that I have a very 'vintage' look both in my dance style and general appearance. I was wondering where I could find teachers for this type of style (like Suheir Zaki, Golden Age type dancing), and whether it is a 'passe' style to others?

I would like to expand upon this vintage style, to learn more since it is what I've always danced, and I would like to know first of all what this style it is actually called (Egyptian? Lebanese?), and secondly, if there is anyone still teaching it. Thanks!

Check out Bahaia (I'm a student of hers). She's definitely inspired by golden era dancers, primarily Samia Gamal. And she can teach it.

If you are in the California Bay Area, take a trip over to San Rafael for lessons with Terry at World Dance Fitness. raksthome

If Golden Age is your thing, Bahaia is it. Go to her dance camp and learn. I swear, her Golden Age workshop was one of the most useful I've ever taken (that and her Oriental Woman, Baladi Girl workshop). And she kicks ass as a person, too. Love that girl.

Thanks everyone! I appreciate it. Is there anyone else? I am really thinking this is my 'style' so I would like suggestions as to what to call it, and is it possible to become a very refined dancer and a pro in this particular genre? Will people recognize it as such? It's very exciting for me because I feel like I have finally found my 'fit', after nine years of dancing. ..l;,

I don't know if you get Samasem (of Cairo & Stockholm) visiting anywhere near you. If so, try to get to her workshops, she is an amazing source of knowledge and technique from those golden age dancers. Not just Suhair Zaki, but much more obscure dancers as well. She's once of my favourite teachers and favourite dancers.

Also Shereen el Safy and Hadia teach techniques/combos from the dancers of that era and credit them as such. Shereen in particular learned at the feet of those dancers and has studied their techniques intensely.

Who are your inspirations from that era, besides Soheir?

Hi Lauren,

I think it's just the way my body chooses to move. I've been employed by and lived with people from the Middle East for the last decade and my first teacher was from Jordan. I've been told by a LOT of people from the ME that I dance the way they remember from 'back home', but I think that may be due to their influences on me.

I've had other teachers, tribal and AmCab, etc, but my basic style has remained the same. I have only recently discovered that the style that I do most closely approximates the Golden Age dancers, and I would like to pursue it. From what I can tell my style is closest to Suheir's, which was the reason I mentioned her.

What do I call it? Golden Age style? I'd really like advice on that. Thanks!

DEFINITELY go for Shareen.

In addition to being a living, breathing Encyclopedia of Egyptian dance, she is a nurturing, beautiful person with a positive, body-conscious approach to teaching. Great thing about Shareen is that she has every noteworthy Egyptian dancer's style "pegged" and teaches combinations inspired by those dancers or straight from the source.

In one workshop, we did Samia Gamal, Lucy, Randa, Dina, Soheir Zaki, Fifi....all the bases were covered.

I didn't even think Egyptian style was my cup of tea until Shareen got me hooked 100%.

*end plug now*

In addition to all of the great suggestions above, I also suggest doing some intensive independent research of your own. Watch tons of YouTube clips of the "greats," buy DVD's, watch old movies, and figure out what makes each of those dancers "tick." Fast-forward, rewind, freeze frame, and scrutinize the crap out of each and every clip, looking for nuances as you go along. Then, try it out on your own body and see how you can make it your own. There's so much to be said for this method of learning.

Good luck exploring your style, Brea!

I think I'd just call in "Brea Morgiane" style unless you choose to pursue studying which elements of your style are similar to Golden Age and which are different, know what I mean? Until you've made a deliberate attempt to study and dance in a particular style, and can discuss it thoroughly, you'll be taking a risk if you say you're dancing in that style.

I think there are two periods referred to as Golden Age or Golden Era. There's the Golden Age of Egyptian Cinema, which includes the big movie dancers (Tahia Carioca, Naima Akef, Samia Gamal, and many others) and there's the Golden Age of Egyptian Dance, which is a slightly later period and includes Mona El Said, Fifi, Nagwa Fouad, etc.

Soheir is included in both periods, she 'crossed over,' so that's why I asked which other dancers were your inspiration in the style. The two eras have slightly different costuming, music, movement vocabularies, etc.

Brea, I agree with Lauren. The youtube clips you have posted recently are very nice but I wouldn't call any of them Egyptian style -- probably world fusion. (or maybe these are not representative of your usual style?)

However, I can see why someone said you reminded them of Sohair. I can't put my finger on it, but I can see it. I think working with that is a great idea.

To start working towards golden age Egyptian (In addition to working with the teachers mentioned), I would recommend getting some of Shareen el Safy's instructional videos (pricey but worth it), and also a good collection of the music from these eras -- music by Mohammed Abdel Wahab, Abdel Halim Haifez, Oum Kalthoum, Faride el Atrache. Some of this music can be found on CDs by Jalilah's series, Cairo Caravan, Wash ya Wash series, and Oriental Fantasy series.

If you want to dance this style, immerse yourself in this music and study videography of how the old style Egyptian dancers interpret this music. Do most or better all of your dancing to this music for the next several years. I have found the total immersion method to be key in really picking up the nuance of a particular style.

Sedonia

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=uGj3evy51VE]YouTube - Brea at the Hafla[/ame]

Based on this clip, I wouldn't call your style Egyptian style either. The costuming reminds me of what dancers wore in the clubs in the 70's/80's. Your dancing in this clip reminds me more of what Shira calls Vintage Oriental (very nice term)and I refer to as American Greek Caberet as in Detroit it was the style danced in the Greek nightclubs. Cymbals, veilwork, floorwork were required. But it was a style strongly influenced by 1st generation dancers from the ME, Turkey, etc. Think George Abdo era dancers.

But if you want to study more classic Egyptian, Soheir Zaki is one of my favorites and you can't go wrong with studying her style, or Fifi's.

Well, now I am confused! ..l;,

I've been dancing nine years and continue to train but still move in this particular way (that reminded someone of Suheir/Soheir). She was the first dancer I ever saw where I felt 'oh, that's what I do!'.

What's world fusion?

I've always loved Fifi, for instance, but never felt like I was doing what she was doing. I appreciate all your help and advice!

Regarding my clips; the odd thing about them is that Wroclai (non arabic song) shows the way I move very well; the hafla video was rushed and I felt like I was moving my hands too quickly, but they're generally representative of what I do. I also do zils, veil, and floorwork more than is shown here.

My costuming is usually a large skirt and bedleh though if the 'vintage' thing is where I'm headed I'm also thinking of a costuming change...

"Vintage Oriental" I thought was another word for American Cabaret?

(Apologies if this is confusing, I have many questions!)

Vintage Oriental is another word for American Cabaret. Costuming bedlah & large skirt, check. Floorwork, zils, veil, check. All AmCab/Vintage Oriental.

So there is no difference between the 'vintage' styles and AmCab, or is AmCab vintage?

There is way more to a style than costume and props and steps.

These styles are defined by the nuance of connection between the music, the choreographic structure, the emotional component. It is hard to describe any of these styles with words alone, but do not think Brea's style looks like American Oriental to me; neither does it resemble Egyptian style.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

So there is no difference between the 'vintage' styles and AmCab, or is AmCab vintage?

I would resist calling "golden-era" dancers like Sohair "vintage" because vintage to me has become synonymous with American Cabaret. Just my 2 cents!

Hi Brea! Just got your email too, but I'm here now so here goes...

Start with the music. IMHO if you really want to capture the style, you have to have the right music. There are 2 cd's listed on my website that are a must - Farid El Atrache and Mohammed Abdel Wahab

"Belly Dance with BAHAIA - Shop"

Next is movement. I do offer a Golden Era workshop and see this as my primary influence. But you should study the old movie clips as they are the source and readily available through youtube, Sausan Academy, Hossam Ramsey and others.

Costume is the icing on the cake. Hope you like to make your own!

That's all I have time for right now but I'll try to get back to you with a little more when I can.
xoxo,
Bahaia
ps - thanks for all the kudos

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

So there is no difference between the 'vintage' styles and AmCab, or is AmCab vintage?

Hi Brea! There are different vintage styles. For example, one dancer may class classical Egyptian as vintage, but another dancer may call old-school American cabaret as vintage.

In this case, I think some dancers are using the phrase "vintage oriental" to describe what used to be referred to as 1960s/1970s American Cabaret which was influenced greatly by Turkish, Greek, Lebanese, and, of course, American dancers. In style, it generally incorporates American-style veilwork, zills, sword, candles, floorwork, larger traveling moves, and spins. Different dancers add their own preferences and style to it, making it a very diverse stylistic group.

Classical Egyptian tends to have more in place movements with traveling largely in a pretty walk/ballet feel or a folkloric/baladi shimmy travel feel. Veil is usually just held and a frame and for a few turns during the entrance. Zills were common in folkloric sections of classical Egyptian, but became less common with modern Egyptian. Floorwork has been outlawed for over 50 years in Egypt, I believe, so you won't see it often in this style. Sword and candles are unusual, but cane is common. Again - every dancer brings their own style preferences and personal preferences to their performance, so you may see more or less of these with any given dancer. There is lots of diversity among Egyptian style dancers as well.

Now - none of these are hard and fast rules, just tendencies I have seen and studied through the years :P After a while, I think every dancer "feels" styles as much as seeing them - sometimes things add up subliminally to a "feel" that you relate to as a specific style.

Originally Posted by ssipes

There is way more to a style than costume and props and steps.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by mahsati

Hi Brea! There are different vintage styles. For example, one dancer may class classical Egyptian as vintage, but another dancer may call old-school American cabaret as vintage.

In this case, I think some dancers are using the phrase "vintage oriental" to describe what used to be referred to as 1960s/1970s American Cabaret which was influenced greatly by Turkish, Greek, Lebanese, and, of course, American dancers. In style, it generally incorporates American-style veilwork, zills, sword, candles, floorwork, larger traveling moves, and spins. Different dancers add their own preferences and style to it, making it a very diverse stylistic group.

Classical Egyptian tends to have more in place movements with traveling largely in a pretty walk/ballet feel or a folkloric/baladi shimmy travel feel. Veil is usually just held and a frame and for a few turns during the entrance. Zills were common in folkloric sections of classical Egyptian, but became less common with modern Egyptian. Floorwork has been outlawed for over 50 years in Egypt, I believe, so you won't see it often in this style. Sword and candles are unusual, but cane is common. Again - every dancer brings their own style preferences and personal preferences to their performance, so you may see more or less of these with any given dancer. There is lots of diversity among Egyptian style dancers as well.

Now - none of these are hard and fast rules, just tendencies I have seen and studied through the years :P After a while, I think every dancer "feels" styles as much as seeing them - sometimes things add up subliminally to a "feel" that you relate to as a specific style.

Yes that is I would describe it too. The American Caberet or vintage oriental was different than the American Caberet style today as it was closer to the root source.

Hi everyone! Wow, thank you for all the details! Thanks for posting Bahaia, I will look into this. The music is definitely important. I'd love to take your workshop!

Sedonia: I agree that there is more to it as well. That's why I am curious about styles and the names they are given. I do feel an affinity with Suheir though. I am looking to learn. I am always learning new things!

Mahsati: these differences are very interesting! Our dance is filled with so much variety.

I am wondering if I am a vintage Oriental dancer (in the sense described, the nightclubs of the 60s and 70s)...perhaps? What I'm trying to do here is define a particular style for myself in order to pursue that, generally based on the way my body apparently likes to move around. :)

My teachers taught AmCab (of today), classic Egyptian, and folkloric. I will study the videos and see what I think.

alexandriabellydancer.com

If you are in Chicago in June. I'm teaching a mini workshop on this format.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Well, now I am confused! ..l;,

I've been dancing nine years and continue to train but still move in this particular way (that reminded someone of Suheir/Soheir). She was the first dancer I ever saw where I felt 'oh, that's what I do!'.

What's world fusion?

I've always loved Fifi, for instance, but never felt like I was doing what she was doing. I appreciate all your help and advice!

Regarding my clips; the odd thing about them is that Wroclai (non arabic song) shows the way I move very well; the hafla video was rushed and I felt like I was moving my hands too quickly, but they're generally representative of what I do. I also do zils, veil, and floorwork more than is shown here.

My costuming is usually a large skirt and bedleh though if the 'vintage' thing is where I'm headed I'm also thinking of a costuming change...

"Vintage Oriental" I thought was another word for American Cabaret?

(Apologies if this is confusing, I have many questions!)

So this is more representative? I'm sorry, but after 9 years of dancing, I would have thought your style to be more defined by now. I definitely see that you have been influenced by the old vintage style of American Caberet. However, your music choices do not allow you to express that style. So you end up being caught in a half world. You need to decide what you want. The music or the style of dancing. From what I can see so far, the 2 aren't mixing and melding.

Once you decide which you prefer you can either adapt your steps to the music you like to dance to or change your music to suit your style of dancing.

Hi Norma-

Admittedly these music choices are not my usual. The Wroclai one was just because I liked the song, the second one was because I had to perform at a hafla and was rushed. When I say 'representative' I am mainly referring to the way I move on the 'Wroclai' vid (except that I don't normally use these songs).

I will try to get better videos of my dancing up soon so you can see what I normally do and dance to. I am open to further training, as always, in both music and dance. I don't think anyone reaches a point where they stop learning (anything, really). Someone once told me that the key to immortality is endless curiosity. ..g.:

I think Norma hit upon what I couldn't express earlier. I can't define your style because I see a disconnect between you and the music. First, some what you have shown us is non-Middle Eastern or not oriental dance music. But even if this is not your usual choices, I don't see your dance using the patterns of movement and phrasing that the music seems to call for and that are characteristic of oriental dance. So there's an essential structure that's not there. The individual steps and movements may mostly be within the oriental dance vocabulary, but they're not adding up to a cohesive oriental dance.

I guess that's why I threw out the "world fusion" term.

PM'd you Sedonia! ..g.:

Brea--what kind of music do you like the best for dancing? That should really be the "base" of your style because it literally is what moves you.

For example--I like old cranky sounding arabic singers with the big arabic band sound behind them. I like the drums to sound really live. I also like whiney wheezy mizmar most of all. I like when a cabaret dancer gets her folkloric on or goes a little balady on the audience with some down home, earthy dancing--but she's still a little bit lazy, sexy and cool, too. This style is THE BEST to me. I like the costuming the best--pretty much the current styles you can find at Dahlal, Bella, etc.--sometimes kind of risque and cutting edge as opposed to big foofy foofy style.

I also like the sexy saidi dresses and the lurex folkloric outfits for cane.

What do you gravitate to? It will eventually become clear and it will help you focus and embrace what you love and leave the rest behind. I think I misunderstood--I thought you wanted to dance in the Golden Age style (40s and 50s movie belly dancer style). I didn't realize you were trying to understand your own style.

Based on your clips, I would say the Magic 8 Ball is still unclear. Your costume choices seem to be turkish style, more of an American Cabaret--sort of the 70s vintage club scene (think North Beach belly dancers in the early 70s style with the very defined eyes, big skirts, etc.). Your actual dancing...I really can't pin it down--maybe it's better not to try to do that anyway.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Hi Norma-

Admittedly these music choices are not my usual. The Wroclai one was just because I liked the song, the second one was because I had to perform at a hafla and was rushed. When I say 'representative' I am mainly referring to the way I move on the 'Wroclai' vid (except that I don't normally use these songs).

I will try to get better videos of my dancing up soon so you can see what I normally do and dance to. I am open to further training, as always, in both music and dance. I don't think anyone reaches a point where they stop learning (anything, really). Someone once told me that the key to immortality is endless curiosity. ..g.:

That will help. And yes, learning never stops. After almost 30 years I'm still learning new music, new steps, etc. Or relearn. I swear, after all these years I've forgotten more than I know!

Originally Posted by mish_mish

gets her folkloric on or goes a little balady on the audience

Mish, have I told you lately that I love you? You have the best way of putting things!