Thread: AmCab: of yesterday and today

This is really a spin-off from Brea Morgiana's thread regarding "Vintage Oriental."

Here's a snippet of one of her posts: "I am wondering if I am a vintage Oriental dancer (in the sense described, the nightclubs of the 60s and 70s)...perhaps? What I'm trying to do here is define a particular style for myself in order to pursue that, generally based on the way my body apparently likes to move around. :) My teachers taught AmCab (of today), classic Egyptian, and folkloric."

Another poster or two to that thread also mentioned, in effect, "yesterday's" versus "today's" vintage oriental, both called AmCab.

Can someone define for me the difference(s) between the 1960's/1970's/1980's AmCab and the AmCab being performed in 2008?

As I mentioned in one of my posts on Brea Morgiana's thread, my AmCab has changed over the past 30 years a bit: it is much more upright and a bit "tighter" in execution; it is, of course, also better dancing in 2008 than it was in 1978!

So, what's the scoop? Inquiring minds want to know . . .

Deborah

there is no diff in fresno ca!
actually, it should be called "green card cab".because the people who taught us what they wanted us to do, so their establishment would feel like home, WERE NOT AMERICAN!

From talking to dancers who've been on the scene longer, it seems like the long 7-part (I think it's 7-part) routines performed in the clubs have gone away because audiences have changed and have shorter attention spans.

we do 5 and 7 section routenes.
this week end alone, i have a shamadom/floor/veil/drumsolo/audience ,wedding set i am doing for persians.arien is dancing for a party of hyes, opening, veil, sword, fire tray, drum, tables.
z

going a bit further, we still do "sections", but what has changed is one might use a more updated traditional song (like a techno azziza ), especially for younger partys.the older ones still want 1 or 2 old songs to remember thing of their homeland.....but older partys are currant too.hakim or faris karam gets asked for.
but the dances are still sections....3 to 7, depending on how long we have been hired to be there.

Has the dancing style changed significantly?

Deborah

I strongly suspect that overall, the posture would have been influenced by all the Egyptian that's around, not to mention developments in tribal which, hello, is based on old school Am Cab. Attitudes towards the body are different now than they were in, say, 1970 - there is a lot more emphasis on strength, control and appropriate use of appropriate muscles etc, in all dance and fitness activities, as a result of the way the fitness industry developed through the 80s and 90s.

Vintage Orientale or even Vintage American Belly Dance sounds so much better than AmCab. <sighs wistfully> PLEASE don't call it AmCab..w.:

As someone who has been doing vintage American style (by the way Dunyah, I agree!) since 1981 (and still does), here are my observations. Some of these have to do with movement, and others with how the dance is taught.

1. Abandonment of the Turkish leaning-back posture. Yay! Reduced back pain is a GOOD change!

2. Increased knowledge/education among the dancers who do this style. I used to have teachers who couldn't tell me the titles of the songs the musicians were playing for us in student shows (and didn't care), nor could they tell me which countries given songs were from. The dancers of today are more likely to know song titles and which countries they come from.

3. More of a conscious choice involved in embracing the style. In other words, they're aware that other styles such as Egyptian and tribal exist, and they choose to continue what they're doing because they feel passion for it. Back in the 1980's, there really wasn't much awareness among these dancers that what they were doing was distinctly different from what dancers were doing in Egypt. They just did what they had been taught and didn't question it.

4. More likely to use layering today.

5. Differences in music, because some of the old vinyl albums we used to use are difficult to find on CD and therefore not highly visible to today's students when they're buying music. Musicians we used who are no longer widely available include Chris Kalogerson, Feenjon Group, Anestos Athenasiou, Jalelledin Takesh, Sultans, and Ozel Turkbas. Today's dancers in this style use newer recordings such as those found on Stella's Bellydance for Fame and Fortune, Mirage, and Pangia. (Of course, some of the vintage albums are readily available on CD, such as John Bilezikjian, George Abdo, and Eddie Kochak.) I'm seeing dancers use less Greek music than they used to.

6. More likely to incorporate elements of formal dance training such as ballet or jazz. By "elements", I mean posture, arm carriage, use of space, etc.

7. Less likely to collect tips stuffed into the costume

8. Nowadays likely to wear Egyptian- or Turkish-made costumes, which means the style/profile of the costume is different from back when we made our own. The dance looks different in a fringeless Pharaonics lycra bra/belt/skirt set than it does in a self-made bra/belt set decorated with costume jewelry from the 1950's and bugle bead fringe teamed with a pair of blousey harem pants or circle skirt with the front panel arranged to show a lot of leg on both sides.

9. Less likely to do floor work. This is due to fewer restaurants having separate raised stages for the dancer to perform on, the lycra skirts not being conducive to it, and unwillingness of the dancer to drag an expensive skirt through the dirt.

Originally Posted by dunyah

Vintage Orientale or even Vintage American Belly Dance sounds so much better than AmCab. <sighs wistfully> PLEASE don't call it AmCab..w.:

Based on the confusion and uncertainty with the term "vintage oriental" evident in BreaMorgiana's original post, I decided to use the term AmCab so we would all know what we were discussing. ..c:: ..g.:

Deborah

Good stuff, everybody! Thank you!

How about meters? Are students of [American] Vintage Orientale (formerly known as AmCab ) still getting taught 6/8 and 9/8 in classes?

Deborah

I know that I am studying Vintage Orientale, and yes, I have done 9/8 in class. (and would love the opportunity to study it more!)

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Good stuff, everybody! Thank you!

How about meters? Are students of [American] Vintage Orientale (formerly known as AmCab ) still getting taught 6/8 and 9/8 in classes?

Deborah

Although I'm not currently teaching 9/8 and 6/8, it's something I *would*. I tend to do my classes in 7 week sessions, and each session I have a different "theme". Could be veil work, could be balancing, could be 9/8 - whatever suits my mood as I'm preparing for the next session.

I remain interested in 'vintage oriental'. I wish there were teachers closer to my area in this. I have noticed my own costume choices are heavy on the fringe, but that's just an aesthetic preference. I like big skirts as well. I am interested to learn more about this style.

. Less likely to collect tips stuffed into the costume

8. Nowadays likely to wear Egyptian- or Turkish-made costumes, which means the style/profile of the costume is different from back when we made our own. The dance looks different in a fringeless Pharaonics lycra bra/belt/skirt set than it does in a self-made bra/belt set decorated with costume jewelry from the 1950's and bugle bead fringe teamed with a pair of blousey harem pants or circle skirt with the front panel arranged to show a lot of leg on both sides.

9. Less likely to do floor work. This is due to fewer restaurants having separate raised stages for the dancer to perform on, the lycra skirts not being conducive to it, and unwillingness of the dancer to drag an expensive skirt through the dirt.
*******we still do all 3 of these "points".in fact, 2 of us will be doing all this at gigs tonight!**********

all of our costumes are made by us, or bayla zena....circle skirts and all!
i do all my own beading...gues fresno should be set up as a historical site!

It's hard to explain the differences, and I think it might be different for each geographic area. From what I remember, the style of dancing done in California back in the 80's is more like the modern version of American Caberet that we see today. More ballet and jazz type movements and use of less traditional music.

In Detroit, the style was performed in the Greek clubs with mostly Greek music, but we borrowed from Egyptian music, Turkish music, Aremenian music. Veil, cymbals, floorwork were mandatory. We wore full circle skirts and showed a lot of leg. We also would tuck up the sides in hip poofs to show more leg and to accent hip movements. Chiffon trimmed in sequins was standard, persian lace was a metallic fabric that was popular for awhile. Costumes were hand made so we would frequently mix and match different skirts with the same bra and belt set. Fringe was very popular but short since it had to be handbeaded. Long fringe came into style in the late 80's and 90's.

Most of the dancers who worked in the Greek clubs also performed in the Arabic clubs so they were used to adapting their steps and styles to the music that was being played. In Greektown you might end your show with Karsilama but in an Arabic club do khaleegy or ayoub. We didn't really think of it so much as a style difference. We just were dancing to different music. In the Arabic clubs they didn't play music for veil (other than chiftelli)so we rarely used it. Floorwork and going through the audience was frowned upon if not forbidden. Most dancers still played cymbals but it might be only during the beledi and not the entire song. We did do 7 part sets lasting anywhere from 1/2 hour (Greektown) to 1 hour (Arabic Clubs).

Hello Ladies: I'm of the old time Vintage Cabaret == started in 1973 and the last time I performed was in 1993 after performing for someone in their teens. I was 43 years old then and decided to concentrate on my flower shop instead of running around doing belly grams.

I was totally shocked to find out how much the dance has changed! In the olden days, we didn't have chest lifts, drops, pelvic locks, shoulder thrusts, shoulder circles, sidewinders, ballet movements etc. and all. I love the new silk veils and the circle veils.

Like I had read, the routines have changed. Dancers come out with their veils flying in the wind....in the olden days, we completely covered up with our veils. Our veil dance was done to beautiful slow melodies, not to the fast songs.

I loved the tribal fusion and learned a lot of it, but it is totally different from the old timey cabaret. The 9/8 kashlimar we worked our butts off to keep the 9/8 's timing right, and now dancers are doing like a 4 count dance and holding for the next 5 counts.

It's amazing to see the changes in 30 years for I know I'm from the old school of dance. I was taught the taxim putting my heart and soul into it, using my slow arm movements, ribs etc. and floorwork into it. Now the figure 8 movement is called the taxim.

The costumes, bras and belts all have changed dramatically. I do love the Turkish long fringey belts and bras, our bras and belts did not have that style in the olden days.

I'm 58 years old and internet was not available back then. I love all the new styles of whatever dance there is....ATS, fusion, and cabaret..but I kind of miss the old traditional vintage style of dance.

This is from an oldster dancer who was born and raised in San Francisco, but have lived in the bible belt of the south for a long long time! We live in a small town of 70,000 and have restarted belly dance classes again at the college here.

I'm pretty disabled now but want the art to keep on for the belly dance community have left when I retired from it. So, here I am keeping our dance going in our town. I love the new form of belly dance and still love the old cabaret.

oh yes!! love this style too!! ...unfortunately here in italy there're not any teachers or dancers does it...sigh!!
who are the most important current vintage oriental style teachers in the world???

Ansuya is very similar in style to vintage orientale if you can't find any live teachers in your area. Dahlena, Mesmera, Veda Sereem and Delilah are other long time dancers with dvds.

if you saw ansuyas mother,JENAENI RATHOR, you would see the real deal! i have 2 vhs tapers of her with raja....i think from 1989.i can feel what i felt when i watch and studied under her.
it is very odd to us, sitting here discussing this thread...all is still done here...not just because we do it, but because the cultures here demand a certain "knowledge".the people who hire from this establishment expect a certain look and abilities.most of which are being discussed as if they are long gone.
glad i am where i am ! i love it here.i love my job!

Hi Liying, welcome to bhuz!

In the olden days, we didn't have chest lifts, drops, pelvic locks, shoulder thrusts, shoulder circles, sidewinders, ballet movements etc. and all. [snip]

Dancers come out with their veils flying in the wind....in the olden days, we completely covered up with our veils. Our veil dance was done to beautiful slow melodies, not to the fast songs.

I'm a big fan of vintage American Oriental, but I feel it is worth pointing out that many of these "modern" changes just reflect 1) better understanding of the authentic ethnic styles, 2) increasing popularity of the Egyptian style, and 3)at least in some cases, the desire to keep them separate rather than always mixing them as American vintage oriental does. Shoulder thrusts? Check out Samia Gamal films from the 1940's. Sharp pelvic locks? Naima Akef in Tamra Henna 1952 or thereabouts. Ballet movements? Check out Samia Gamal again, or Aida Nour, or any Reda-infuenced oriental dancer. Veil as part of fast entrance? Check out any Egyptian dancer -- they invented the use of the veil as an oriental dance prop and that's how they used it -- enter, swish, swish, drop.

I loved the tribal fusion and learned a lot of it, but it is totally different from the old timey cabaret.

Yep. Stick around. We have lots of lively threads about stuff like that.

The 9/8 kashlimar we worked our butts off to keep the 9/8 's timing right, and now dancers are doing like a 4 count dance and holding for the next 5 counts.

As Artemis Mourat will tell you, the "9/8" rythm evolved once it got to America. Those dancers that hit only some beats and then hold may really be following the more authentic Turkish Rroma rhythm.

Now the figure 8 movement is called the taxim.

Only in the tribal style, and I think it is a poor choice of terminology. Taqsim really refers to an improvised solo in a particular maqam. Alot of us relative newcomers know this stuff

The costumes, bras and belts all have changed dramatically.

Yes, the costumes have changed, a change that follows trends in Cairo and Istanbul, in most cases. So, some of these changes are evolutions taking place in the cultures from which the dances originate, and we're just following along.

I'm 58 years old and internet was not available back then.

I cannot even imagine learning what I have learned about this dance without the internet!! When I started in 1997, I cut my teeth on posts by Morocco, Laurel Grey, Aziza Said, and many others whose expertise I soaked up like a sponge.

..but I kind of miss the old traditional vintage style of dance.

I think we are seeing an upswing in interest in American vintage oriental! And now is the best time to also see dancers doing the tradition, unmixed forms of Turkish, Egyptian, and Lebanese dance.

Sedonia

I have personal difficulty doing anything the same for more than a certain period of time so my dancing is completely different now than it was when I first started but I'm happy to have been schooled early on in the style of dance of which you are now speaking (I don't feel like calling it anything but it's whatever we're discussing here!! how's that for a run-on sentence).

I am so appreciative of the education because the way it was taught to me emphasized a dancer's ability to do everything, as Zamora has mentioned; being a well-rounded dancer who got jobs meant you had to learn how to play finger cymbals, come in wrapped in a veil, know how to remove that veil and work with it gracefully, do floor work, work with various props, do a drum solo, know how to interact with the audience, and work the finale, not to mention, know that music.

And the live band with whom I performed subsequently for about 9 years reinforced that style and the 3- to 7-part routine because they played all of that great music (Turkish, Persian, Arab, Armenian, Lebanese, Egyptian). The musicians always appreciate when you know the songs they are playing. People would think you rehearsed with the band but it was just a matter of knowing the music because you knew when the breaks and accents were.

A dancer in NJ, Alia Saleem, is a wonderful proponent of this style of dancing in our area (I'm still saying "our area"! haha...Philly is still home I guess).

So while I may not dance this way anymore or wear the same costumes, I will select my routines based on this format, modifying it a bit, depending on the client and event, etc.

There is a place for everyone in this whole range of styles available today. It is good to remember how things had been done before and that many modern dancers choose to employ this as their standard in 2008.

Hey, we did shoulder shimmies, not the shoulder thrust, like they do now in my past life. Even the shoulder circling front and to the back on the tribal dvd's where not done in the old timey vintage dance. When I learned from one of the coolest dancer in S.F. we did not do pelvic locks, etc.. Whatever you want to say that I did not study with Samia Gamal, Tamra Henna back in the 50's or 40's and watch their dancing. I guess I'm not a TV person, but do watch the newer dvds that are out now. In fact when I'm watching and studying a belly dancing dvd, it lulls me to sleep half the time. I studied with Kathryn Rabanne, Bert Balladine, Mira from Dallas who taught it in the 70's but we were not taught to do a lot of the chest pops, drops, the pelvic locks, etc..

I know you are voicing your opinions like I'm voicing mine. Normally I keep my mouth shut, but wanted to talk about what I've learned in the past 35 years since I was 23 years old, now I'm 58!

Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut since you are an expert. I was giving my opinion of how much it has changed in the last 30 years. I'm not a historical expert on the dancers in the 40's and 50's or 60's. My takeoff was from my side of the dancing that I have learned in the past.

I guess I have an ADD mind, I don't concentrate well on historic pasts even the history of the U.S. You must have a great mind to be able to focus on the past, the present and the future, and I might need to take Ritalin. If Ritalin was available when I was in school I might have obtain a great profession. Oh well, the past is gone and we all need to enjoy what dance we love !

I think all the new dance movements are great and wished I was able to do all of it! My hips have been out of whack for this fall since I started teaching again, due to having radiation in my hips and back. Ouch! I loved the floorwork and was great at it, but now I literally have to have a chair to push up to get up off the floor. I can't even get down on the ground gracefully to play with my granbaby!

Originally Posted by ssipes

Shoulder thrusts? Check out Samia Gamal films from the 1940's. Sharp pelvic locks? Naima Akef in Tamra Henna 1952 or thereabouts. Ballet movements? Check out Samia Gamal again, or Aida Nour, or any Reda-infuenced oriental dancer. Veil as part of fast entrance? Check out any Egyptian dancer -- they invented the use of the veil as an oriental dance prop and that's how they used it -- enter, swish, swish, drop.

Sedonia, speaking as someone who started belly dancing in 1981, I have to say that the names Samia Gamal, Aida Nour, Naima Akef, and others were never mentioned in my classes. The style of belly dance that we were taught more closely resembled Turkish Oriental than anything Egyptian.

Egyptian style started to influence us over the course of the 1980's, as dancers traveled to Egypt, saw the performers, and came home wanting to copy what they had seen there. Also in the 1980's we first started seeing some home videos of Egyptian dancers - but that too was a new influence. At this time, a lot of dancers abandoned the based-on-Turkish style that we had learned and moved in an increasingly Egyptian direction. I saw a lot of things change over the 1980's and then start to stabilize in the 1990's.

Liying, I think you took my message the wrong way. I wasn't disrespecting your opinion, and I'm not setting myself up as an expert, I am just offering a slightly different perspective on some of your (totally accurate) observations of how belly dance has changed in the US over the last few decades. The "why's" behind the "hows" if you will.

Also, I have found everything Shira has said to be true also. She started 15 years before I so she has seen even more of this revolution.

In the US in the 50's - 80's, there was a lack of reliable resources available to dancers. Dance students sometimes went from beginners to professional dancers with only American teachers, without ever actually seeing the dance as it was done in its countries of origin. And many of these teachers, even the famous ones, were teaching an American form of the dance, not a particular ethnic style (there are exceptions - Morocco and A'isha Ali come to mind immediately). Most dancers in that era never saw the native dancers that really created "belly dance" as we know it such as Samia Gamal from Egypt, etc. or dancers from Turkey or Lebanon. There was much misinformation floating around about the dance (and still is, but there is less excuse for it now IMO)

And now, well its the best of times and the worst of times.

Worst of times because we see all kinds of ignorant hodgepodge mixing and fusion that is done without cultural respect. Much of this inaccurately lumped under the term "belly dance" which gets used as a label for *all kinds* of wierd stuff, to the point where the term is almost meaningless. Also it is the worst of times because we have blurred the lines between hobbyist and pro dancer, undercut the market for pro dancers, and flooded the market with inadequately-trained teachers/performers. Liying, you would probably be shocked to know what dancers get paid to perform in clubs and restaurants these days -- even the best paid of them probably get paid far far less that what the going rate was when you were dancing.

And it is the best of time because there are resources to learn accurate information about the dance: a much more easily available videography from the Middle East (especially Egypt and Lebanon) so that even if one can't go "over there", everyone can see the real deal dance from its native cultures. Opportunities to go on dance-oriented trips to Egypt/Turkey, to study with teachers who've trained in these countries and who do authentic ethnic forms. Innovative fusion forms that have developed, by responsible artists that fuse out of knowledge, not ignorance, and properly label what they do. There are practitioners of the American vintage oriental who know exactly where it came from (the American melting pot) and present it proudly as such, not claiming that it is the exact same dance done in ancient Mesopotamia or similar drivel.

I did take your opinions kind of negative, but I did see your wink as you were quoting. It's okay.

The lady that I learned so much from was from Khadijah Rabanne and she lived in the Middle East, I don't remember and she learned so much of it there. She was married to a tattoo artist and I heard that he abused her and she was hurt pretty badly and left. Khadijah didn't hold back, she was so honest and forthright with her knowledge.

I took from a dance teacher here in Texarkana, and she learned it from a teacher name Meara from Dallas. I'm not sure what the style was Turkish/Greek and Meara came to our town and taught a workshop and then I drove to Dallas to take privately.

Later on when I went to visit my mom and dad, I found Khadijah. The style of dance was so different, that I was in culture shock. I learned from her, her styles and then put together a little of the other. Workshops were finally offered in Dallas etc.. and off I went .

Thanks Shira for your opinion for I don't think it was Egyptian that I learned. A lot of belly dancers danced at North Beach Restaurants in S.F.

I did belly grams in the 80's starting at 30.00 for 20 minutes carrying my whole house, it seemed. Later in the years, I charged 75.00 for 10 minutes and after 9:00 pm, I charged 10.00, 15, etc more as the time darkened. My life was not my own for all those years, though I worked full time at a corporation. I wouldn't eat all night for I didn't want a big belly back then. Now I don't even have to eat to have a belly!

When I married my last husband, he became a keystone cop to open up my shows, we started doing costume characters to add to my belly dance. Finding a job for him in Texarkana was so hard....that we decided to open up a gift shop and book our costume characters in our store. I invented the Playgirl Bunny, and the stripping gorilla for him. I had fixed him strip away clothes and he was still in his furry clothes. I also did Wonder Women, Darling Domination, The Hussy, Mickey and Minnie Mouse and clowns. We asked 50.00 and had a toy chest, and made a lot of balloon bouquets.

I danced a lot in the restaurants, home parties etc.. and gave it up when I turned 43 years to concentrate on my flower shop. After 17 years of having a flower shop I finally sold it due to my bad health, uterine cancer stage 4.

In my last stage of this life, I wanted to give back the ladies in Texarkana a legacy that they can carry on. No one had enough guts to teach it or dance after I left....so here I am older, wiser and more decrepit to give back - it comes full circle.

I wished I had your brain capacity to deal with the older dancers in the past, but I'm glad you are well informed. Wshed I could be too.

Thanks all for sharing. Got to go pick up my 3 year old grandgirl, it's about to storm here.

Ah . . . the "specialities" of American Orientale: floor work, balancing, veil and cymbals.

I have never performed floor work and will never do it -- because I simply cannot. I can, however, teach it.

My mom did wonderful, powerful floor work, and my daughter's not too shabby at it, either -- and both know how to do it properly -- that is, in good taste.

Balancing is something I have done in performance, but only with a basket. Mom was a wonderful balancer of the sword (on and off the floor); I think my daughter could do it, too -- we'll have to give that a try pretty soon! I should try the sword again; maybe my head and neck aren't as sensitive to concentrated extra weight as they once were . . .

My veil is more my friend now than it was when I started out, but I am so jealous of my child who, it seems, was born with a veil in her hands . . . <sigh> And, back in the day, you left your finger cymbals on to do your veil!

Finger cymbals were a real challenge for me -- I have tremendous empathy for those that don't "get it" right away; heck, I couldn't even sustain any sort of pattern for more than 8-12 counts -- sitting down! Once I got the hang of it, though, I got good at it and have been playing the usual meters of 2/4, 4/4/, 6/8 and 9/8 for decades.

It really is interesting to try to list all the things that make one style what it is. I'm actually going to perform in "vintage" style -- coin costume, veil, finger cymbals and all -- at MECDA's BD Carnival/Festival/whatever-it's-called; I'll be dancing to 6 minutes of Eddie "the Shiek" Kochak! Yay!

Deborah

Liying, it sounds like you have had a really interesting career! And I mean interesting in a fun way (not in the "hmm...interesting" way). I enjoyed reading your contribution to this thread.

Guess life wasn't easy on me leaving home at 18 1/2 and moving to a complete total different environment!

I have an autobiography written on Shimmy Bliss website, but it was far too long and so personal.

Working as a secretary for an Iranian boss was not fun for seven years either.
He was a tryant and also doing belly grams was not an easy thing for the people I worked around either. I would have an engagement at 5:00 and get dressed in our bathroom and would cover up with a long coat trying not to hide the fact I was going to perform.

My love was belly dancing at 23 years old, making costumes, teaching and just loving the art of Middle Eastern Dance! When I received money for my dancing, it no longer was my passion any more!

Guess that's enough for now and loved to go to the Bhuz groups to learn and try to absorb a lot of stuff written to pass it on to my students.