Thread: shimmies: tight or loose

I've searched this forum about this and could not find any threads about it. Do you do your standard shimmies with tight glutes or relaxed "buns of jello" as it was explained to me. Just letting it all jiggle. Also are all shimmies supposed to be fast, to look like a vibration or can you slow them down to a steady hum?

Mine look more dramatic when I relax my glute muscles, but again, I don't want to form a bad habit if that's not correct.

And since I am asking: when it comes to all the movements you learn, do you stick with the exact technique or do you adapt it to your body to get it to look how you want? Example, lifting your feet a bit on figure 8's to get a more dramatic looking move. I was told not to lift feet, keep them planted, make hip and oblique do the work. When I do that my movement is barely perceptible, so I lift my heel off the floor a bit to make the move bigger.

My buns are relaxed and along for the ride! Some folks use their glutes to generate the shimmy, but I just use them for accents. I generate my shimmies from my legs or hips. I think they can definitely have speed variances. Your blender does, why not your shimmy? It's more important to match them to the music. An oud shimmy looks different than a drum shimmy.

For technique, I say do whatever works. As for the figure 8 example, most beginners who lift their feet can't keep the hip level. If the goal is a level hip, then keeping the heel on the floor can help with that. Of course, you can also lift the heel and focus on a level hip. Since there are multiple ways to achieve the same look, if it's not hurting you then it's OK. Some people will tell you a move is strictly muscular, then the next person to come along says that it's skeletal. They can't both be right, so do what you can. In no way am I suggesting that you should never work or be challenged, though. I think you should try something the way it's presented and make an informed choice. Don't just dismiss it saying "I can't do it."

Originally Posted by Andrea2

My buns are relaxed and along for the ride! Some folks use their glutes to generate the shimmy, but I just use them for accents. I generate my shimmies from my legs or hips. I think they can definitely have speed variances. Your blender does, why not your shimmy? It's more important to match them to the music. An oud shimmy looks different than a drum shimmy.

What Andrea said!! ..g.:

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

Do you do your standard shimmies with tight glutes or relaxed "buns of jello" as it was explained to me. Just letting it all jiggle. Also are all shimmies supposed to be fast, to look like a vibration or can you slow them down to a steady hum?

Yes (to all).

Heels lifted or heels flat manifest in different looking figure 8s on every body. As long as your technique is sound, you're protecting your joints, vertebrae, and lower back, do what you intend for the effect you intend.

you can also try doing intensified stretches for hip articulation.
perhaps you can improve by increasing your range of motion and flexibility. that might prevent your feet from trying to come up on the fig. 8

Sabrina: Can you describe the "intensified stretches?" My mayas are pretty small and I still have trouble sinking downward, which is a move I particularly love to watch. And flatfooted mayas feel virtually impossible!

What Andrea said. The shimmy tempo should match the music. If you are dancing to the beat, each hip movement should correspond to a 1/16 beat, which is generally too fast to count, but would be one-ee-and-a-two-ee-and-a-three-ee-and-a-four-ee-and-a etc.

If you are dancing to a strummed instrument as in an oud taqsim, you should match the strums, and the tempo may be changing if it is not metered.

It is a good thing to be able to shimmy across a wide range of tempos. If all you have got is reaalllly slow or reaaallly fast (vibration) you can't really match the music as well. It is normal, though, to have tempos that are harder for you, but keep working on them.

You can generate shimmies with relatively different engagement of different muscle groups: some may be more hip driven, some may be more thigh driven.

I try to keep some weight distributed on both the balls and heels of my feet, and for an Egyptian look, I keep my upper body lifted and slightly forward of my hips. I don't lift my heels off the ground unless I'm shimmying in releve, then I try to stay high up on the balls of my feet. If you have balance and core to shimmy in releve, it can create some fabulous powerful large shimmies.

I dislike shimmies done in a leaning back posture where the knees are deeply bent, the weight is all on the heels, and the upper body is back from the hips.

Originally Posted by ssipes

It is a good thing to be able to shimmy across a wide range of tempos. If all you have got is reaalllly slow or reaaallly fast (vibration) you can't really match the music as well. It is normal, though, to have tempos that are harder for you, but keep working on them.

You can generate shimmies with relatively different engagement of different muscle groups: some may be more hip driven, some may be more thigh driven.

I'm ITA with ssipes and Andrea2. Being able to do different types of shimmies and vary the tempo of them can give you a very large movement vocabulary to respond to different music. My "default" shimmy is an up-and-down, where the knees pump but I'm also doing a lot of pulling up with my obliques as well, and it's what it'd consider a medium sized shimmy. But depending on the music, I'll do anything from a tiny vibration (like for a kanoon taqsim) to a big juicy choo-choo shimmy (like at the end of a drum solo where the drumming builds up to the finale).

This also brings up something I've been meaning to post but it slipped my mind. Does anyone else have the experience of being able to execute or sustain a certain shimmy or layer only when the music is "right"? For example, one of the things I'm working on layering is a down hip (Suhair Zaki-style) with a shimmy on releve. When drilling, it's hit or miss getting it sputtering to life, and sustaining it is a pickle too. However, I've noticed when improv-ing that for certain song parts (like where the music speeds up near the end of Entel Hob), I can start and sustain the movement with little to no problem. It's so weird!

I love this topic! There are many different types of shimmies. If you are interested in a DVD that shows you some various styles, Leyla Jovana's video, "21 Shimmies and 1001 variations" is very helpful. My "default" shimmy is a very fast 3/4 shimmy--I find it incredibly easy to move around, modify, and layer with. I'd say my second fallback is what I call "up-and-down" or a loose, butt-flab shimmy. My least favorite is what I've called "Raya Hassan" shimmy (I think I spelled that wrong). That would be the straight-legged shimmy, but it is good for layering. As for how best to do your figure 8s, that would depend on the effect you want. Foot position can change depending on what you are trying to do. Again, for at-home study, I recommend the DVD by Michelle, "Drills, Drills, Drills" where she shows figure 8s and mayas with feet in various positions, and practices drilling those positions. Very helpful for developing the confidence to move around.

I would say that the most important thing in either case (shimmies or figure 8s) is sound posture and good arm placement. Lose either of those, and your technique will be poor and you will look sloppy, regardless of how your feet are planted. Shoulders back and down, tail-end tucked, spine elongated, and arms lifted with "strength" but not tension--in other words, no duck flappy wing-arms--extend your energy to your fingertips. those are some of the most important drills my instructor has beat into my brain!!!

PM me if you want some more reviews on those or other videos--I have about 30 (I love at-home study in addition to my rehearsals, class time & privates!!)

Originally Posted by laura 2

This also brings up something I've been meaning to post but it slipped my mind. Does anyone else have the experience of being able to execute or sustain a certain shimmy or layer only when the music is "right"? For example, one of the things I'm working on layering is a down hip (Suhair Zaki-style) with a shimmy on releve. When drilling, it's hit or miss getting it sputtering to life, and sustaining it is a pickle too. However, I've noticed when improv-ing that for certain song parts (like where the music speeds up near the end of Entel Hob), I can start and sustain the movement with little to no problem. It's so weird!

I have this experience too. I think it is an issue of relaxation...when I am really into my music and not thinking too much, I can "relax" into a shimmy, sustain it longer, and layer it more effectively. I am also more successful at creating looser shimmies when I am relaxed. I had major stagefright at a show back in April and my shimmies looked like crap because my whole body felt locked up.

Nisaa

[QUOTE=Sonja2;185374]I love this topic! There are many different types of Again, for at-home study, I recommend the DVD by Michelle, "Drills, Drills, Drills" where she shows figure 8s and mayas with feet in various positions, and practices drilling those positions.


I have Drills, Drills, Drills, and I like it but Michelle is adamant about not lifting your feet and to let your abs to the work. If this is the case, when I try a Maya, it looks like my hip is spasming (she says most beginners make the mistake of lifting their feet..l;, )

And as for 3/4 shimmy, I can do it then I lose it. Not in my muscle memory yet. That's good to know about the 1001 shimmy dvd. Tell me could a beginner follow it?

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

Do you do your standard shimmies with tight glutes or relaxed "buns of jello" as it was explained to me. Just letting it all jiggle. Also are all shimmies supposed to be fast, to look like a vibration or can you slow them down to a steady hum?

Mine look more dramatic when I relax my glute muscles, but again, I don't want to form a bad habit if that's not correct.

Yes, as the others have said, shimmies should be loose - but not a "jiggle" they should be in time to the music. There are lots of ways to generate a shimmy - popular ways include using the legs to bend the knees (gives an up & down hip shimmy), using the lateral flexors (also gives an up & down hip shimmy), using the quads (gives a more forward and back shimmy). Each shimmy has its own uses and strengths.

I'm not convinced the tight glute method actually gives a "shimmy". Ones I've seen generated this way look more like a shiver or a vibration - which have the repetition but also a tight look and feel.

Speed should match the music. As should texture.

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

And since I am asking: when it comes to all the movements you learn, do you stick with the exact technique or do you adapt it to your body to get it to look how you want? Example, lifting your feet a bit on figure 8's to get a more dramatic looking move. I was told not to lift feet, keep them planted, make hip and oblique do the work. When I do that my movement is barely perceptible, so I lift my heel off the floor a bit to make the move bigger.

Generally stick with the technique your teacher is teaching. For instance, it you start learning vertical eights lifting your feet you'll never develop the flexibilty and control needed to do them without lifting your heels. However, there may be occasions when performing a little "cheating" for effect can be justified. Always drill and practice with the best possible technique.

I personally start out teaching looser shimmies, but yes there is a variety!

Wow I am learning a lot here. I think I became obsessed with doing it right and underestimated the importance of fitting the move with the music tempo. Thanks everyone.

PS anymore opionions about the 1001 shimmy dvd?

[quote=HOOKEDNOVICE;185825]

Originally Posted by Sonja2

I love this topic! There are many different types of Again, for at-home study, I recommend the DVD by Michelle, "Drills, Drills, Drills" where she shows figure 8s and mayas with feet in various positions, and practices drilling those positions.


I have Drills, Drills, Drills, and I like it but Michelle is adamant about not lifting your feet and to let your abs to the work. If this is the case, when I try a Maya, it looks like my hip is spasming (she says most beginners make the mistake of lifting their feet..l;, )

And as for 3/4 shimmy, I can do it then I lose it. Not in my muscle memory yet. That's good to know about the 1001 shimmy dvd. Tell me could a beginner follow it?

I have that DVD and I kinda whinced at that statement because the figure 8 with the heels lifted is a move in hula called the leva. She made it sound like lifting the heels was in bad form. I think keeping the heels down gives you a small movement, while lifting thw heels gives you a bigger juicy movement. I do both depening on the music and style I'm doing. I think we should not be to strict on movements because you could end up looking robotic and stiff when dancing.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I'm not convinced the tight glute method actually gives a "shimmy". Ones I've seen generated this way look more like a shiver or a vibration - which have the repetition but also a tight look and feel.

I've never been convinced of this either. To me "shimmy" implies a clearly defined alternating movement that is connected either to the rhythm or the instrumentation (e.g. the oud strumming as Sedonia mentioned) of the piece. I don't believe the glutes can create this by themselves.

Nisaa

This is interesting, as I've always wondered about that (glute-driven shimmies).

[quote=toria_dances;186040]

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

I have that DVD and I kinda whinced at that statement because the figure 8 with the heels lifted is a move in hula called the kaholo. She made it sound like lifting the heels was in bad form. I think keeping the heels down gives you a small movement, while lifting thw heels gives you a bigger juicy movement. I do both depening on the music and style I'm doing. I think we should not be to strict on movements because you could end up looking robotic and stiff when dancing.

well, i too have been trained, especially in LEARNING it, to keep your heels on the ground.......it reminds you to use the ab and connecting muscles in the hip, as opposed to pushing up with your feet. it's the best way to get correct form, then lift your heels to ENHANCE the movement(making it bigger), instead of driving it......especially in the beginning, it's easy to forget to use the correct muscles, so i assume that's why she insists on heels down, more to reinforce the technique until it's solid......

or, i could be totally full of it..l;, , just my take on it

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I've never been convinced of this either. To me "shimmy" implies a clearly defined alternating movement that is connected either to the rhythm or the instrumentation (e.g. the oud strumming as Sedonia mentioned) of the piece. I don't believe the glutes can create this by themselves.

Nisaa

Glutes can, but it takes lots and lots of practice. It's basically double time, alternating glute squeezes done in time to the music. Same alternating hip movement as in an oblique shimmy, just a different muscle group. It's *not* just squeezing your glutes as hard as you can to make a vibration. Actually, one of the things I don't like about them is that some dancers make them too big & jiggly and they look out of control.
I used to do them, but they gave me hip problems. They do make it a bit easier to layer things, but aren't really necessary for layering; plus I'm not a huge fan of the "look I can layer 98755435668875564 things at once!!!" craze.

Hey there again... I think learning a variety of methods for a variety of shimmies is fine... I don't actually think there is just one "right" way to do shimmies--as long as your posture is correct and your arms are correct, and you present a lovely line. I like to train with some of Suhaila's glute DVDs just to tone up and help strengthen my shimmies--but my primary style is the knee driven shimmy look--it is easier for me to master, I guess. I guess I didn't pay enough attention to Michele's advice about the heels--I tend to skip some of the talk and go straight to the movements (should I be embarassed about that?)... I get the technique in class, the DVDs just give me different ideas of what to drill on. I think that 21 shimmies & 1001 variations could be helpful for a beginner, Hooked, as long as you start with one and master it, them move to the next (and I recommend NOT starting with the first one she has on the DVD). I also like "The Heartbeat of Bellydance" for learning rhythms and learning the 3/4 shimmy and drilling with it. I wore that one out as a beginner.

My beginner class starts with flat footed vertical 8s both on the up and the down. Dancing it and drilling it for strength are 2 different objectives. They will be small at first when done flat, but as you build strength and flexibility, the movement will get bigger. Always drill it the "hard" way and you will see results (control) a lot faster.

[quote=toria_dances;186040]

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

I have that DVD and I kinda whinced at that statement because the figure 8 with the heels lifted is a move in hula called the kaholo. She made it sound like lifting the heels was in bad form. I think keeping the heels down gives you a small movement, while lifting thw heels gives you a bigger juicy movement. I do both depening on the music and style I'm doing. I think we should not be to strict on movements because you could end up looking robotic and stiff when dancing.

I totally agree with this and want to add that venue may also play a part in your movements. If the audience is up close you can do smaller movements but if you're removed from the audience up on a stage, then bigger movements may be needed.

My Egyptian teacher and ex-dancer does heel lift Mayas. I guess it's up to you and what you want to achieve

I use several different shimmies. My fall back is the loose up & down but I have a pretty great glute shimmy too that does not look tight & out of control (my first instructor taught Suhaila's technique) of course, I worked my but off to get it..l;, . I wouldn't give it up for the world; it's a crowd pleaser! The shimmy you use depends on the effect/texture you want and on the rhythm/texture of the music as others have said; a tight Raqia Hassan shimmy (slightly pitched forward with knees alternating back) is great for freezes while a loose up & down (driven by obliques and a bit by quads) is perfect for travelling...

When drilling your 8's remember that your hip range will grow the more you practice... I agree with the others who said stick with the technique you're being taught then alter for effect later during specific choreo & performances.

Oh, and since you asked I love--love Leyla's Jouvana's 21 Shimmies & 1001 Variations DVD also ! Highly recommend!!

Regarding the Mayas: Practising/drilling them flatfooted will help to isolate the movement better (no leg use, just obliques) and will give you more of a stretch/muscle workout because you can't "cheat" with the legs. The extra challenge will make them look bigger and more fluid over time AND you'll be able to layer the movement easier with other movements or level changes.

While performing you can still use the heel lift to change the effect, but for practise I recommend relaxing the legs as much as possible.

Ooh, forgot to add: I took Leylas 1001 shimmy workshop a few years ago, very informative!! She explains really well. Still want to buy the DVD sometime, but keep forgetting to. Bozenkas new shimmy DVD should also be really good. And loved her shimmy WS as well, less variations but good explanations and lots of individual attention. Anyone have her shimmy DVD?

Here's the other bhuz disscussion about the different types of shimmies. It's got some great instruction... http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...24-shimmi.html

Also with the figure 8s...do you mean vertical or horizontal figure 8s? For vertical, bend your knees more to keep your feet flat. But do not bend past the toes.

For horizontal 8s, you can actually pivot the balls of your feet and change weight. Do this ever so slightly so that your heels barely come up off the floor. I've heard some teachers suggest that this protects the knees. Also for the horizontal 8, really work on your twists and slides in different directions to get a large range of movement.

Par exemple, Twist one hip forward as far as you can (which sends the other one back, but concentrate on front hip), slide out and come back to center. Twist same hip forward again, but don't go as far, slide and return. Keep on doing this at tiny increments until you've gone all the way to the back and then try the other hip. Imagine a clock face...out to 1:00, then 1:30, then 2:00, 2:30, 3:00, 3:30, 4:00 etc. It's a great drill that will give you more range of movement with your hips. (You can do this on the vertical plane too, but it is slightly different). So that when you are doing a figure 8 you will have control over how large or small you make your hips.

PS The Heartbeat of belly dance with Jenna has good shimmy drills. And once you get more advanced, try Aziza's ultimate practice companion.

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

Wow I am learning a lot here. I think I became obsessed with doing it right and underestimated the importance of fitting the move with the music tempo. Thanks everyone.

PS anymore opionions about the 1001 shimmy dvd?

I am a little late jumping in on this but the 1001 Shimmy DVD is great. I got it after only dancing for a year and I was able to follow most of it. The rest just takes practice. She does emphasize that you might not get up to "speed" right away and that it will come with practice. It is realllly long so I would only do an hour at a time. Get it, it is well worth the price!

You've sold me. I am going onto the swap meet to search for a second hand copy of the shimmy dvd haha I am learning so much between this and the Egyptian code thread my head is going to blow right off my neck. Now-off to practice....

Hey Ladies,

fyi...a Hawaiian Hula movement "kaholo" ( our standard and basic movement for both Kahiko - ancient and Awana -modern Hula style) is a traveling side to side movement consisting or 4 steps, of 8 if it's a double.

a up figure 8, with a lifted heel (some call the fish) is called a "ka'o".

a rotational hip circle (on hip joints) is called an UMI.

there's NO WAY a kaholo could be confused with a ka'o!!!!!

just wanna help.... aloha, miss willow