Thread: Talk to Me About Saidi Fallahin?

Talk to me about Saidi Fallahin, folks?

I've fallen in love with a piece by the Upper Egypt Ensemble entitled "Wahad Bas". It is listed on the album as a Fallahin piece, but the rhythm is very clearly Saidi.

Can I use this for Raks Assaya? Why or why not?

Fallahin just means farmers. We dancers tend to associate the term with the delta (I believe due to Mahmoud Reda), but there are farmers everywhere (I read a statistic that fellahin make up 65% of Egypt's population). So here saiidi is likely the adjective (farmers from the saiid region).

That would be my guess, not having heard the song. I think you are just fine to dance saiidi style to it, stick/cane included.

Heck, with that title you could even add a ruffle to your dress! ;)

I'm not an expert, but the following is my opinion:

yes you can do assaya to Fallahi music. Fallahin are just farmers, you know, country music. And I know that brings visions of those big mumu farmer dresses we all love so much and the various water jug carrying dances and nubian dances we associate with them, but if it's obviously Saidi music... The Said is a region of Egypt, upper Egypt, it consists of Qina , Luxor , Asyut and Suhaj, right? There are fellahin in these regions for sure, so it makes sense that a song labeled fallahi can also be Saidi.

Regardless of how the locals dance to it, you are an artist and you can make an artistic decision. I don't think there is an Egyptian out there who would be at all surprised or offended if you did assaya to a Saidi peice of music with a Saidi beat, even though it is officially categorized as Fallahi. You often see the same piece of music utilized for different purposes, even by Egyptians.

Wasn't there a thread recently showing a man doing Tahtib to the same Egyptian song a woman did something entirely different to?

If it calls to you, do it.

Was it Ya Ma Daget, Shems? Mohamed Shahin dances Tahtib to it, and Hadia dances Beledi to it. The song has a beledi feel to it, but uses the Saidi rhythm.

The songs screams Saidi to me which is why I was a little thrown by the Fallahin label. So, I know the Fallahin are the urban peasants/farmers scattered along the Nile, but other than perhaps where (or from whom) the song originated - what makes it Fallahin?

It totally calls me to dance Saidi, but aside from some limited reading online on Fallahin and a few dance moves.... that's all I know, so I don't particularly trust my judgment.

A clip of the song can be found here:
Egypt: A Musical Voyage mp3s, Egypt: A Musical Voyage music downloads, Egypt: A Musical Voyage songs from eMusic.com

I can't answer your questions, but I think the instrumentation is quite different between this piece and the one on the same album that's called Saidi...anyone care to elaborate?

I know that Fallahin songs always have lyrics/singing, which is often not true of Saidi songs. There is so much overlap in stage presentations anyways...maybe incorporate some Reda Fellahi steps into your Saidi presentation to give a feel for both?

In the eyes of Egyptians, "fellahin" is not thought of as an identifiable music style or dance style. Reda originally created choreographies to represent "the delta part of Egypt where agriculture is the dominant way that people earn a living" but he never intended to imply to us or anyone else that the farmers of the delta are Egypt's only farmers. Somewhere along the line all of us drew the wrong conclusion that fellahin = ruffled dresses and dancing with pots to a certain rhythm. It doesn't. Fellahin = farmers. If you were to do a dance wearing a ruffled dress and carrying a pot using Reda-style choreography and music with the rhythm that we have come to call fellahi, the Egyptians wouldn't view you as doing "the farmer dance", they would view you as doing "the dance Reda invented to represent the people who live in the delta."

Fellahin means simply "farmers". Some Egyptian farmers work the Nile part of the delta, some the Said, some what's left of Nubia. I'm sure that the creators of the album were just using the song to mean "people who live in a rural area and work as farmers" as opposed to "people who live in cities and sell crap to tourists".

So when you see "fellahin" as a song title, just think of it as representing a rural lifestyle. Listen to the song itself, and make choices that suit the music. If the song has a strong Saidi flavor, then of course it would be fine to do raqs al assaya to it.

Originally Posted by nasila

I can't answer your questions, but I think the instrumentation is quite different between this piece and the one on the same album that's called Saidi...anyone care to elaborate?

I know that Fallahin songs always have lyrics/singing, which is often not true of Saidi songs. There is so much overlap in stage presentations anyways...maybe incorporate some Reda Fellahi steps into your Saidi presentation to give a feel for both?

The Saidi has mizmar and it sounds to me like the main instrument in Wahad Bas is the rebab...

Originally Posted by banatsusan

it sounds to me like the main instrument in Wahad Bas is the rebab...

Indeed!

Love it! (But don't want to make a fool out of myself dancing to it)

ah, rebab! thank you! So is doing Saidi to a song with no mizmar kosher? ;)

btw, when was the album released? Was this by any chance the soundtrack for Leila Haddad's tour?

Originally Posted by nasila

ah, rebab! thank you! So is doing Saidi to a song with no mizmar kosher?

Oh yes, it's perfectly fine to do raqs al-assaya and other Saidi-style dancing to rebaba. Quite definitely.

I am most familiar with the music of Metkal Kenawi...this is what I call the water jug dance and it has rabab in it and I have seen a lot of people do cane to this:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMbpQmLTI0s]YouTube - Hala El Safy & Metkal Kenawy[/ame]

Do you have the VHS Arabian Nights Dance, it's the older tape with Najwa Fouad performing to Princess of Cairo and also includes performances by Sohair Zaki, Zizi Mustapha, and others? I'm not sure if it's out on DVD? At any rate, Metkal Kenawi sings Walla Zaman and in the this clip, I was told the dancer was Halla El Soffi, she picks up the cane and dances for part of the piece and there are two rabab players playing in the back ground. In the second clipMetkal Kenawi also sings and the rabab players are playing, during the intro two tahtib dancers come out and do their thing. So if you need "proof" that cane dance is done to rabab and/or fellahin you will find it on this tape. Much of the upper egypt music has rabab and/or mizmar-I think their is some information about this on Aisha Ali's tape too...

I've heard the snippet on iTunes. You are right it does use the Saidi rhythm. I don't see why you can't use the stick with it. Fellahin probably is a reference to the farmers in the Saidi region, the a particular style. Same name could have easily being given to a Baladi progression piece.

BanatSusan, thanks for that clip. I've never seen a dancer "wear" a ballas like a shamedan!

You guys are the best.

I just love Bhuz, and that clips was great! Thank you Susan. Thanks everyone!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Oh yes, it's perfectly fine to do raqs al-assaya and other Saidi-style dancing to rebaba. Quite definitely.

I agree. Rebaba is actually the typical, commonly used saidi instrument more so than mizmar.

I was going to post saying that the rebeba gave it away as saidi. But like Monica said the term saidi in this instance is used as an adjective. Fellahin and saidi are not necessarily mutually exclusive, the fellahin of the said region are still saidi.

I just wanted to poke my head in and say how much I've loved reading this thread, and am filling the info away for the future. Fascinating!

Just got an email back from Hadia on the subject and I thought y'all might want to see what she had to say.

"Fellahin are all over the place, as they are farmers. The delta fellahin are more often called fellahin because they don’t have a term for people from the delta, while upper Egyptians are usually referred to as Saidis. This is definitely Saidi music.

This is a maksoum, but you are free to use a cane or stick to music other than the saidi (as did the Mazin girls), although it is more typical to use a Saidi piece."

Craziness! I consider myself to be decently aware of my rhythms, but I TOTALLY heard Saidi here!!! Goes to show how easily swayed we are by all the other variables in a song.

I'm feeling inspired by more than just the music now. Next, to find the lyrics. Gonna have fun with this one!

Thanks again, ladies!

Originally Posted by Adishakti

Just got an email back from Hadia on the subject and I thought y'all might want to see what she had to say.

"Fellahin are all over the place, as they are farmers. The delta fellahin are more often called fellahin because they don’t have a term for people from the delta, while upper Egyptians are usually referred to as Saidis. This is definitely Saidi music.

This is a maksoum, but you are free to use a cane or stick to music other than the saidi (as did the Mazin girls), although it is more typical to use a Saidi piece."

Craziness! I consider myself to be decently aware of my rhythms, but I TOTALLY heard Saidi here!!! Goes to show how easily swayed we are by all the other variables in a song.

I'm feeling inspired by more than just the music now. Next, to find the lyrics. Gonna have fun with this one!

Thanks again, ladies!

The snippet I heard on iTunes is definitely Saidi. I don't know what the rest of the song is like.

Yeah, the little bit I listened to was definitely Saidi but I don't have the full song either. It might go back and forth between the two rythms??

Saidi is essentially a Maksoum but with a different accent. There are parts in the song where you hear "Dt tD t" and even "Dt DDD" instead of basic Saidi. I'd love to hear about the lyrics if you are able to have it translated.

Originally Posted by nasila

Saidi is essentially a Maksoum but with a different accent. There are parts in the song where you hear "Dt tD t" and even "Dt DDD" instead of basic Saidi. I'd love to hear about the lyrics if you are able to have it translated.

Yep. Me too. But I honestly wasn't initially hearing the maksoum at all before, which is quite predominant in the song now that I listen to it with fresh ears.

Gotta love Egyptians, heh? Here we are trying to analyze things and they fancy foot around the rhythms at whim. (And send us blue instead of red costumes in a B cup instead of C... because it's a better color for us and will give us better cleavage). ..l;,

I can't find anything regarding the lyrics online, but have a student who is from Egypt. I'll bring it to class on Sunday and ask her...

Just wanted to let you know I uploaded the song to the music section here on Bhuz incase anyone wanted to hear it all the way through.

another great discussion on bhuz! And I'm happy to say, thanks to Sahra, I wasn't completely lost. :)

Originally Posted by banatsusan

Yeah, the little bit I listened to was definitely Saidi but I don't have the full song either. It might go back and forth between the two rythms??

Ok, I think there are times when Maksoum is used as a one bar variation, then right at the end it changes to 2/4 fellahi before stopping.

But the whole tune is Saidi folk music.

Originally Posted by banatsusan

I am most familiar with the music of Metkal Kenawi...this is what I call the water jug dance and it has rabab in it and I have seen a lot of people do cane to this:
YouTube - Hala El Safy & Metkal Kenawy

Do you have the VHS Arabian Nights Dance, it's the older tape with Najwa Fouad performing to Princess of Cairo and also includes performances by Sohair Zaki, Zizi Mustapha, and others? I'm not sure if it's out on DVD? At any rate, Metkal Kenawi sings Walla Zaman and in the this clip, I was told the dancer was Halla El Soffi, she picks up the cane and dances for part of the piece and there are two rabab players playing in the back ground. In the second clipMetkal Kenawi also sings and the rabab players are playing, during the intro two tahtib dancers come out and do their thing. So if you need "proof" that cane dance is done to rabab and/or fellahin you will find it on this tape. Much of the upper egypt music has rabab and/or mizmar-I think their is some information about this on Aisha Ali's tape too...

unfortunately the video is unavaliable for me....


i have a question on almost same issue

here's Hala Safy and Kenawi musicians with Walla Zaman dancing n saidi style

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO69agrERuY]YouTube - Egyptian Folkloric Bellydance[/ame]



and here's Silk Road Dance Co with ghawazee dance to same piece

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGsbkUZIEjg]YouTube - Ghawazee Dance 1 - Silk Road Dance Company[/ame]


i previously thought 'walla zaman' to be purely saidi music and would not use it for ghawazee style dance. What are the relations between saidi and ghawazee style music?

And also one more question - these kenawi musicians' dynasty themselves - were they actually said people or ghawazee?

Originally Posted by *Shira*

In the eyes of Egyptians, "fellahin" is not thought of as an identifiable music style or dance style. [...] So when you see "fellahin" as a song title, just think of it as representing a rural lifestyle.

Part of the confusion may be that the word "Fellahi" can also be used to describe a primitive 2/4 folkloric rhythm, and some songs may adopt the word in their titles in that context. I am not sure how widely this naming convention is used by Egyptian musicians. I know Hossam Ramzy uses it, but that does not preclude it from being a dance convention, because I think he occasionally indulges dancers in the "'Beledi' rhythm" business. Personally, I have a difficult time telling filled Ayoub from filled Fellahi, and would be interested in hearing an explanation of how you tell two variations of "dum-tek, dum-tek" apart.

Originally Posted by nuringa

i previously thought 'walla zaman' to be purely saidi music and would not use it for ghawazee style dance. What are the relations between saidi and ghawazee style music?

And also one more question - these kenawi musicians' dynasty themselves - were they actually said people or ghawazee?

RE: The Kenawe family, I am pretty sure they are sa'idi, but somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

RE: sa'idi and ghawazee music, I am not sure the differences are so cut and dry that we could say it's inappropriate to use sa'idi music for ghawazee dance. I'm anxious to hear others' perspectives on this, though; it's an interesting question.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Personally, I have a difficult time telling filled Ayoub from filled Fellahi, and would be interested in hearing an explanation of how you tell two variations of "dum-tek, dum-tek" apart.

They actually have a different structure. Ayoub sound like DUM ka-DUM tek, while Fellahi sounds like a really fast maqsoum - DUM tek tek DUM tek.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

They actually have a different structure. Ayoub sound like DUM ka-DUM tek, while Fellahi sounds like a really fast maqsoum - DUM tek tek DUM tek.

This is getting OT, but when you play fast and start filling in extra beats, you can end up with very similar rhythms. You often hear "dum-a-tek-a, dum-tek" in 2/4 songs, and both Ayoub and Fellahi could accommodate this fill. The only thing separating them is how you accent the "a" sixteenths of the first count, and if you start filling in 32nd embellishments, then it becomes even more difficult to tell the two rhythms apart. I guess, IMO, as a dancer, the important thing to identify is the dominant, regularly spaced dums.

Aha! - referring to (and trying to decipher) my JtE1 notes....

Fellahin from Delta region do have assaya dances, however they dance with a higher center (i.e. not as heavily weighted) and they use the sticks differently, the stick is up high and away from the body - generally, everything is lifted and lighter.

Ghawazee simply means "public performer". Its more of a class distinction as opposed to a type or style of dance - ghawazee being the "lowest" class of dancer, as opposed to "Awalim" which are considered more respectable and higher class. There are (well, were) lots of different styles of Ghawazee dancers, with a wide variety of movement styles, so I'd assume there was a variety of music styles as well. Considering ghawazee were found all up and down the Nile, there were definitely ghawazee dancers from the Said region, so my best guess is 1) one could be both saidi and ghawazee at the same time, and 2) it would be okay to use saidi music for "ghawazee" dance.

Hope I'm reading my notes correctly. ..c::

If Roxanne is here, she'll know for sure.