Thread: The Egyptian Dance Code on G.S.

Originally Posted by kina

Where's the line? Is it what you think is abhorrent? The mother I wrote about thought it was abhorrent to NOT do this with her children as it would permanently make them ineligible for marriage in her culture. Which she considered a right to protect for her children.

Kina, it's what any rational thinking person can clearly see as abhorrent.

I just don't see the slippery slope you are trying to show between baptism and genital mutiliation.

And if you look at what underlies this abhorrent custom as well as its counterparts in western culture, you'll see it is irrational belief systems, which need to be eliminated.

We may not have a right to forcibly stop it in other cultures, but I think we have a right to do anything else we can to pursuasively stop it, up to and including international political pressures and sanctions and campaigns. One of the things that keeps genital mutilation going is the secrecy surrounding it and the ignorance that maintains the irrational beliefs the custom is based on. The people that do this don't like to talk about it. I think we should talk about it often, loudly, and publicly and ceaselessly. If this custom was externally visible violence, the rest of the world would be in outrage. If Chinese families suddenly decided that binding their daughters' feet was again necessary to make them marriageable, the rest of the world would boycott the whole country.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Kina, it's what any rational thinking person can clearly see as abhorrent.

I just don't see the slippery slope you are trying to show between baptism and genital mutiliation.

And if you look at what underlies this abhorrent custom as well as its counterparts in western culture, you'll see it is irrational belief systems, which need to be eliminated.

We may not have a right to forcibly stop it in other cultures, but I think we have a right to do anything else we can to pursuasively stop it, up to and including international political pressures and sanctions and campaigns. One of the things that keeps genital mutilation going is the secrecy surrounding it and the ignorance that maintains the irrational beliefs the custom is based on. The people that do this don't like to talk about it. I think we should talk about it often, loudly, and publicly and ceaselessly. If this custom was externally visible violence, the rest of the world would be in outrage. If Chinese families suddenly decided that binding their daughters' feet was again necessary to make them marriageable, the rest of the world would boycott the whole country.

OK, try baptism and male circumsion in the Jewish religion. I'm sure you're up to it.

It's not that difficult, it's parental choice.

And I resent the implication that I'm trying to justify FGM.

Originally Posted by kina

OK, try baptism and male circumsion in the Jewish religion. I'm sure you're up to it.

It's not that difficult, it's parental choice.

But one is an irreversible removal of body parts and the other is a harmless ceremony. If you grow up and decide you're not a Christian, how is having been sprinkled with water as an infant going to impact your life in any way? The ceremony only has meaning if you chose for it to have meaning.

And I resent the implication that I'm trying to justify FGM.

I'm not implying that, but you do seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't take agressive action against it.

Originally Posted by ssipes

But one is an irreversible removal of body parts and the other is a harmless ceremony. If you grow up and decide you're not a Christian, how is having been sprinkled with water as an infant going to impact your life in any way? The ceremony only has meaning if you chose for it to have meaning.



I'm not implying that, but you do seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't take agressive action against it.

No, I'm not, but I also don't believe that I get to impose my belief's on others.

What an odd course this thread has taken. Well, apparently it took something as grave as FGM to kill the EDC once and for all...

That's a difference, I agree, and I don't want to say it isn't a significant one-- but I'm not sure I want to say that mutilating our children by cutting off *some* bits is OK, depending on the function of the bit.

Death by alphabet. fecgm'd if you do -fecgm'd if you dont!

Sorry, I'll comment on the 'code' since I haven't done so yet.

All this talk of beats one and three feels irrelevant to me unless we first specify which rhythm we're talking about. Maksoum? Masmoudi? Makes a big difference.

Talk of accenting up, down, in or out on the dum is very oversimplified. In my observation, it seems that Egyptian dancers on the whole are more inclined to use downward accents than, say, AmCab dancers -- but not all dancers are inclined to always accent in any particular direction, and I certainly don't think it's a 'code.'

I think each Egyptian dancer STRIVES to have her own unique style -- her own shimmy, her own big hip circle, her signature steps and accents (up, down, in or out). Generalizations can certainly be drawn, and it's useful to look at tendencies. But to call it a 'code' is just marketing hype and extreme oversimplification, IMO.

Originally Posted by kina

No, I'm not, but I also don't believe that I get to impose my belief's on others.

Then what, would you say, is the proper course of action?

No..I am sorry..just trying to inject some rather juvi humor into a thread that got dead serious there for a while.

I am going to suspend any more discussion on this issue untill I complete my study of the materials at hand. But....I'll be back!

IMO, the FGM debate needs to be taken to another thread. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that the oversimplification of Egyptian dance via the "EDC" is in the same league as FGM. In the end, no one loses a clit because Sausan says she thinks we must emphasize up or down on the one.

Regarding the ongoing discussion of "the code," one thing I have to say for us "westerners" - we can talk the enjoyment out of anything, but most especially that which is the most beautiful and ephemeral, such as dance and music.

I, for one, proudly say "Shut Up & Shimmy" - we'd all be better dancers if we intellectualized less and danced more. Dance from your heart and your soul, and not from your head - that's what your audience wants to see most of all.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

IMO, the FGM debate needs to be taken to another thread. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that the oversimplification of Egyptian dance via the "EDC" is in the same league as FGM. "

LOL... I wasn't even thinking of one related to the other at this point... just got caught up in an interesting discussion of FGM! Oh how threads can go on tangents... just like conversations...

I am also of the "don't overanalyze" inclination, in relation to the actual topic of this thread. I think that watching the Golden Age greats is excellent for inspiration, but the inspiration I get from it is enjoying the artistry, expressiveness and naturalness of those dancers. Sometimes technique is not even what is so great about them. It's something far less tangible, as is usually the case with great artists in any art form.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Regarding the ongoing discussion of "the code," one thing I have to say for us "westerners" - we can talk the enjoyment out of anything, but most especially that which is the most beautiful and ephemeral, such as dance and music.

I, for one, proudly say "Shut Up & Shimmy" - we'd all be better dancers if we intellectualized less and danced more. Dance from your heart and your soul, and not from your head - that's what your audience wants to see most of all.

I agree. When I watch the clips of the Egyptian biggies, my impression has been more of a difference in feel, emotion, some what relaxed, simple (or seemingly so) movement. I never thought to start counting beats to see if it was up or down, left or right. Once you put that much thought and math into it, it looses its original aura of loveliness. But I am a baby so my thoughts may be off track.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Then what, would you say, is the proper course of action?

see response #358

If this custom was externally visible violence, the rest of the world would be in outrage. If Chinese families suddenly decided that binding their daughters' feet was again necessary to make them marriageable, the rest of the world would boycott the whole country.

Please. Like hell. I know it's not quite comparable, but when the Taliban were forcing all women indoors, barring them from education and freedom of movement without a male escort, and making them wear burqa whether they wanted to or not, and stoning them to death for minor infractions, the "rest of the world" was merrily going "oh tra la la" because the "rest of the world" was too busy trying to build a certain oil pipe. Only when someone drove a plane into a building did saving the poor Afghan women become a political necessity.

Originally Posted by Linnyg

I agree. When I watch the clips of the Egyptian biggies, my impression has been more of a difference in feel, emotion, some what relaxed, simple (or seemingly so) movement. I never thought to start counting beats to see if it was up or down, left or right. Once you put that much thought and math into it, it looses its original aura of loveliness. But I am a baby so my thoughts may be off track.

No, you're not off track at all!

Actually, you don't really need to count beats if you can hear it in the music.

Hearing the music is probably the trickiest part for most learners. Why? Because most persons don't really listen to much music beyond that which is of the "popular" variety of their youth/early adulthood. Most people don't take music lessons or sing in a group. Most people can't hear changes/phrases/sections in music, except that maybe they've noticed there are verses (words change) and refrains (words remain the same) in songs.

Does this make most of us incapable of learning to hear, really hear, the complexities, sometimes subtle, sometimes glaring, in music? Of course not!

I would venture to say that most of our beloved Egyptian stars of yesterday and today grew up with the music of Egypt, in whatever form it took at the time they were coming up. It's the same for Europeans, Americans of both hemispheres, non-ME Asians, Africans and Australians (did I get all the continents??? -- nobody permanently lives in Antarctica, so I didn't include it). Because they grew up with the music of their culture, they might have a better nearly-intrinsic "feel" for it, but it doesn't preclude non-ME people from getting a good feel for it. Heck, growing up with the music doesn't guarantee that a person of ME birth has any more "feeling" for ME music than any random person in the US has for his/her own cultural music. Not everyone is musical, after all!

I think it's a dancer's experience with the music -- and the movements associated with it --that often gives audiences this feeling of "relaxed" performance, of that special loveliness so many of us enjoy.

Knowing our music, knowing our moves better than the back of our hands, and probably many of us will be feeling -- and exhibiting -- a bit of that "relaxed" state, too!

Deborah

Originally Posted by Lilladancer

I am also of the "don't overanalyze" inclination, in relation to the actual topic of this thread. I think that watching the Golden Age greats is excellent for inspiration, but the inspiration I get from it is enjoying the artistry, expressiveness and naturalness of those dancers. Sometimes technique is not even what is so great about them. It's something far less tangible, as is usually the case with great artists in any art form.

I'm in complete agreement. It's that "something special" that can make all the difference!

Deborah

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Regarding the ongoing discussion of "the code," one thing I have to say for us "westerners" - we can talk the enjoyment out of anything, but most especially that which is the most beautiful and ephemeral, such as dance and music.

I, for one, proudly say "Shut Up & Shimmy" - we'd all be better dancers if we intellectualized less and danced more. Dance from your heart and your soul, and not from your head - that's what your audience wants to see most of all.

WOOO WHOOO!!!!! Another convert to my side!

Oh, and if I may make a suggestion too those who want to learn to 'hear' the music? get an iPod Shuffle. Second gen is only$49. Fill it with 15 + hours of ME music of all types. Put it in shuffle and listen to it and only it for one month. No rock, no jazz, no NPR. Trust me, at the end of the month, you may not know the name of the songs, but you will understand the rhythms. and traditions. You might also be comfortable enough to *gasp* improv!

{{{HUGS}}}

Oh, and if you want to know more about FMG from the POV of someone who has experienced it, try either Fire Eyes, or On their own. Both Documentaries are very good.

{{{HUGS}}}

I am so late in the game for this thread....But I wonder: has anyone studied music theory? Ethnomusicology? I took music theory for the western scale, mostly, but we dabbled into Middle Eastern and Asian...nothing I can really remember, but i feel as though the confusion can be somewhat relieved with a good music theory reference....no worries, I'm not gonna drag it out just wanted to put my two cents in...*clink*

Originally Posted by taobellydancer

I am so late in the game for this thread....But I wonder: has anyone studied music theory? Ethnomusicology? I took music theory for the western scale, mostly, but we dabbled into Middle Eastern and Asian...nothing I can really remember, but i feel as though the confusion can be somewhat relieved with a good music theory reference....no worries, I'm not gonna drag it out just wanted to put my two cents in...*clink*

I took a class on Middle Eastern music in my campus' music department, but am definitely not an ethnomusicologist. The textbooks we used were:
* "Music in Egypt: Experiencing Music, Expressing Culture" by Scott Marcus
* "Popular Music and National Culture in Israel", Motti Regev and Edwin Seroussi.

The one on Egypt is wonderfully concise and it comes with a CD too. Maybe of interest to you? It is out on Oxford University Press, and costs around $25 for the paperback if memory serves. This link below goes to a table of contents:
Oxford University Press: Music in Egypt: Scott L. Marcus

Here is a link to an excellent book by Dr. Michael Bakan. Dr. Bakan is a percussionist and ethnomusicologist and worked his way through graduate school in California playing in Middle Eastern bands. The focus of the book is sort of a silk road progress of musical instruments, structure, cultural identity spanning across southeastern Asia, northern India, the Mideast, Balkans, Africa and Spain. One chapter in particular goes into the relationship between ME music and women's dance forms.

As dancers we have many resources available to us on rhythms and fewer on understanding maqams. I started with a CD entited "Maqams Made Simple" I believe it has been released under other similar titles. And then this past spring I was fortunate enough to take a workshop with Naser on Arabic music theory and choral singing which included the completely new experience for me of vocally improvising within specific maqam--like Arabic scat signing. Here is a link to his website on Myspace: MySpace.com - NASER MUSA - La Verne, California - Acoustic / Fusion / Other - www.myspace.com/naseroud

Naser doesn't toot his own horn enough. He is a Grammy winner and multiple Grammy nominee. He spoke highly of Dr. Ali Racy's work.

Souzan

Sorry for my absence!! I was without internet for a couple days..,m::
Lotus, Souzan-Thanks for the learning material suggestions! I'll look at them all (yay!) ..g.:

Also:

"Making Music in the Arab World"
Dr. Jihad Racy (UCLA)
I believe its Cambridge Press

This book CHANGED my life!!

Roxxane, thanks for that reference. I will take a look for it. I love his music and the articles his has written that I have been able to find.

A side note, in a recent issue Zaghareet, Hossam Ramsy addressed so-called "master teachers" in his regular column. It was a very frank discussion on his part. He noted that he considered Soheil Kaspar to be a master teacher and performer.

Souzan

Originally Posted by nasila

I'm still struggling with this concept too, but I find it fascinating that Sausan has identified such a fundamental difference in the way we dance. I may be wrong (and please correct my if I am) but what I'm interpreting as one of the basic ideas in the Code is this: when an Egyptian (say Fifi) does a step hip, her emphasis is on the step itself. A big bouncy joyous step on the one, and the hip accent on the two is secondary. When we (at least Americans) look at this and break it down, our focus is on the movement and we step (on the one) HIP (on two). It's the same basic movement but the emphasis is different.

Watch teeny Dina and count it out (this is also a good example of containment of movement without it being an isolation):

YouTube - Dina red dress

And Samia (count to yourself and you'll see she's almost always on toes on one)
YouTube - Samia Gamal - Ali Baba and the 40 thieves سامية جمال

Also, we tend to step on one and hip on two, whereas Egyptians more often will step on the *and* to hip on the one (or wait for the three, but the emphasis is up on 1 & 3). Does that make any sense?

See Fifi here when she turns around:

YouTube - The Egyptian Star - Fifi Abdo

Just to say...

Very good observation!

-Sausan

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

OK, I'm going to give my interpretation a shot:

(snip)

The third thing is understanding the way that Arabs accent certain beats and drum sounds. Souhail Kaspar has been teaching workshops talking about this, and I was in one of his classes last weekend. He's very big about insisting on down on the doum and up/out on the tek, and though I'm never one to like talking in absolutes, as a starting point, it's good food for thought.

Yes, Down on the doum and up/out on the tek.
But when the hip drops on "doum", the chest still lifts which allows the emotion to come out. And then when "tek" is played the movement is up/out, again with the chest lifted. Both "doum" and "tek" are on beats one and/or three whether the count is counted double time, full time, half time, or quarter time. And this is where it becomes tricky.

It is very interesting how we got math, among other things, from that part of the globe.

-Sausan

Originally Posted by anala

On the other hand, it is so ingrained in the Egyptian, albeit the Arabic culture and way of life, that the Egyptians cannot really teach it

Wait...no nappy time for you yet...this is the offending statement, yes?

If so, can anyone here say that this difference in "ear" has been addressed by a mainstrean Egyptian dancer/teacher on the circuit today...it's not that they cant...but do they? I dont get out to the big city workshops, so I doubt I will ever get a first hand view.

PS..Typo's!!!...ever notice how much I edit my posts? Dyslexic 2finger semi blind non typist who cant spell sh*t...ok, maybe that word I can!

No, no offense to anyone. In fact, I've actually posed and demonstrated this fact to Egyptians who dance. After the demonstration, I see a light come over these Egyptians...and other Arabs. They always respond with, "I never noticed that!"

So, no, I did not state that to offend anyone. I did do the research. ..g.:

-Sausan

Originally Posted by ozma

I found the article difficult to read because I felt that it played into the idea (say the O word) of the culture being other and unknowable on a certain level (and requiring foreign experts to explain) in quotes like this:

"What is most remarkable is that, since this way of hearing and keeping the beat of the music is not in our Western experience, it is virtually impossible to see it as Westerners, although we recognize that the Egyptians dance differently than the West. We simply do not hear the music like the Egyptians do to begin with; it is not part of our culture or our way of life. On the other hand, it is so ingrained in the Egyptian, albeit the Arabic culture and way of life, that the Egyptians cannot really teach it. "

(snip)

I would have been perfectly comfortable with the article had it been framed as "These are the misconceptions I feel many people have about Egyptian style dance, with the culture gap misconceptions are to be expected to some degree, but this is my observation and where I feel these misconceptions fall short of what I consider to be at the core of Egyptian dance...and, yes, I teach courses based around these principals."

Hi.

Perhaps, you have some valid points regarding how I should have worded my article. But, really, in my 35+ years of study, I have never attended a workshop (and I have attended many) that was taught by an Egyptian or other Middle Eastern born and raised dancer who could illuminate to me what it was that made the dance look different from the Western style belly dance. It seem that all they had to say was that that was just the way they did it and to follow them. In fact, the "follow-me" method is often used in their format of teaching.

I, too, teach courses in my dance class around these principals. Cultural differences can be so minute that they are usually overlooked or misunderstood. Case in point...my trip back to the USA after having lived in Thailand for nine years and in Spain for four during my formative years was a complete culture shock to me. Although I spoke the English language, I did not know the American culture to the extent that I would have known it had I lived in the USA all those years.

It is interesting what a culture can do to personality much less dance.

-Sausan

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

Hi Nisaa,

I did not need to see Sausan's dancing to criticise her EDC. Not only has she not 'got it' but she seems to think that she has deciphered ideas that even Arab instructors would welcome as a revelation. A major problem is that she provides no evidence of legitimate research to back her claims. What I am sick of is the pseudo-academic rubbish all dressed-up in quasi-technical lingo (with an Arabic word or two thrown in for good measure) that is rife in the field of belly dance.

When I prepare a lecture for my university, I have to provide the department head with a thesis and outline, bibliography, copies of written materials and visual materials from different sources. We go over the thesis and outline together, making notes, then I go off and make sure I come back with something well-argued and coherent. I do NOT go in there saying 'well, I just KNOW that to be true because I am an Arab and a third-generation dancer, yadda yadda yadda.' It's no substitute for proper research and study.

I wonder how Jazz aficionados and musicians would take it if I presented a similar 'code' for learning Jazz because I took a couple of trips to New Orleans and Chicago; asking the opinions of random denizens of the city, and 'observing' videos of great Jazz musicians. I wouldn't be surprised if I was told where to stick it.

Hello, Suha:

Just to let you know...

I am reading your posts -- with interest.
Perhaps one day we will meet and discuss this subject further...g.:

Sausan
Owner/Operator of Al-Masri Egyptian Restaurant
San Francisco, California