Thread: On the beat?

I think it all depends on the person who is watching and is subject to the way that person views the dancer.

Remember the western dancers who have middle eastern people come up to them after a performance raving about their dancing, convinced they are middle eastern?

Perhaps it's not just a westerners dancing, but also the way they look. If they look middle eastern .. dark hair, dark eyes.. middle easterners assume they are middle eastern. If you look western, you are viewed as western from the start.

I think assuming we can dance like Egyptians is rude and self centered. I mean if for instance, you did not grow up with hip hop, you can take all the hip hop classes you want but it will never look authentic. that's just a reality. maybe if you study for 20 years you can be passable but no one will assume you are frome brooklyn and have been dancing to hip hop since you were a child. that's because that natural feeling will not be there. sometimes too much training can be a detriment. i also salsa dance and i prefer to watch native dancers who haven't taken classes and are just good. you can always tell who's taken a bunch of lessons and is showing off their spinning technique. i guess that's what you guys mean about Western dancers during drum solos showing off every trick they know. but in reality in many Arabic cultures, women are dancing together and only around other women. it's not a mermaid type costume on a stage. So they will be much more relaxed and into the music and enjoying the moment than me on stage under lights, with make up and recorded music.

I think assuming we can dance like Egyptians is rude and self centered. I mean if for instance, you did not grow up with hip hop, you can take all the hip hop classes you want but it will never look authentic. that's just a reality. maybe if you study for 20 years you can be passable but no one will assume you are frome brooklyn and have been dancing to hip hop since you were a child.

Hi Rakgirl and everyone else in this thread, big smile.

I just can't rap my mind around someone being a better dancer b/c it's in their culture. We can tell ourselves this all we want to make us feel better when we aren't dancing well BUT it all boils down to the fact that dancing is an emotional and physical interepration of music and it would be very boring if we all danced the exact same way. Everyone dances differently not every latin person can dance samba, salsa, tango, etc.... not every lebanese, arab, egyptian can dance raqs sharqi. So to me, for anyone to say someone can't dance better b/c they didn't grow up with it is a cop out and a way to make oneself feel better than others.
As dancers we shouldn't worry ourselves with what other people think of our dancing. If you feel it and hear it and your body displays the music than you are dancing and that is what matters.

I guess I just have a very hard time excepting what others feel to be the truth.

In an issue of ...I believe it was Zaghareet, Hossam Ramzy was answering a question posed to him regarding the difference in Turkish and Egyptian dancers. He said that Egyptian dancers always start down on the beat so therefore anyone who starts up on the beat is considered off from the music.

Do you think that this may be why some feel that Westerners are not technically on the beat? Has anyone else heard of this or has anyone else seen the article I am referring to?

.w.:

Originally Posted by rakgirl

I think assuming we can dance like Egyptians is rude and self centered. I mean if for instance, you did not grow up with hip hop, you can take all the hip hop classes you want but it will never look authentic. that's just a reality. maybe if you study for 20 years you can be passable but no one will assume you are frome brooklyn and have been dancing to hip hop since you were a child. that's because that natural feeling will not be there. sometimes too much training can be a detriment. i also salsa dance and i prefer to watch native dancers who haven't taken classes and are just good. you can always tell who's taken a bunch of lessons and is showing off their spinning technique. i guess that's what you guys mean about Western dancers during drum solos showing off every trick they know. but in reality in many Arabic cultures, women are dancing together and only around other women. it's not a mermaid type costume on a stage. So they will be much more relaxed and into the music and enjoying the moment than me on stage under lights, with make up and recorded music.

I can relate to this. Hmm, maybe this analogy will work for people.

If you watch Patrick Swayze in dirty dancing teaching Baby to dance, you see people moving to the music, learning something new, and eventually becoming very good at it.

They still don't salsa like you would in PR. They might be very good at it, but it's not the same. That's not a criticism, it's just different.

Dominicans dance salsa, and dance it very well. They still don't dance like they are in/from PR.

Cubans also dance salsa, very well. Still not the same.

Ditto Colombians and all the other latino's who dance salsa.

Can I tell who is Fred Astair competition trained -v- a native dancer? yes.

Can I tell where someone learned to dance salsa (or from where) yes.

Whose technique is better? Depends. The FA trained dancer, who has been training for 15 years will probably have better physical technique, will have a competition worthy repertoire and will probably look fantastic in their salsa clothes. Will someone who grew up dancing salsa mistake them for a native dancer? Probably not, irrespective of whether they are pro's or not, they will know that people don't move like that when they are at the local nightclub or when they are in the kitchen and Mami's favorite song came on the radio and she grabbed you to express it.

I think that's what is being expressed. It's not that Westerner's dance poorly, it's that there is absolutely a difference.

And I can tell you, as a professional dancer, when an FA trained dancer told me that I wasn't dancing salsa properly, I laughed at her, and pitied her. She completely missed out on the joy and fun of this cultural expression, and because it didn't fit into her narrow definition of salsa, it wasn't salsa to her.
She clearly had no clue and in her arrogance, she was judging others by her narrow point of view.

I think that we, the dance community, often do this as well, especially when we are first falling for this dance form. We become so immersed in the expression, in the joy, in the acceptance into ourselves, into the glittering dream that is this dance, and forget: it was here before we found it.

It's akin to saying Christopher Columbus "discovered" America. It's not like it wasn't here before he landed.

Originally Posted by kina

Whose technique is better? Depends. The FA trained dancer, who has been training for 15 years will probably have better physical technique, will have a competition worthy repertoire and will probably look fantastic in their salsa clothes. Will someone who grew up dancing salsa mistake them for a native dancer? Probably not, irrespective of whether they are pro's or not, they will know that people don't move like that when they are at the local nightclub or when they are in the kitchen and Mami's favorite song came on the radio and she grabbed you to express it.

I think that's what is being expressed. It's not that Westerner's dance poorly, it's that there is absolutely a difference.

I think that we, the dance community, often do this as well, especially when we are first falling for this dance form. We become so immersed in the expression, in the joy, in the acceptance into ourselves, into the glittering dream that is this dance, and forget: it was here before we found it.

It's akin to saying Christopher Columbus "discovered" America. It's not like it wasn't here before he landed.

Thank you Kina. That's what I mean. Now don't get me wrong, I love Aziza, Jillina, etc. etc. But none of them are confused with Egyptian natives. I think I dance pretty well but I don't think anyone thinks i'm from Egypt. That doesn't mean I don't love Egypt anyway and won't keep on dancing.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

I just can't rap my mind around someone being a better dancer b/c it's in their culture.

I don't know if anyone is making that judgement. No one's said one dances 'better' than another -- that would be meaningless, anyway, a judgement call in the eye of the beholder, like saying Dina is 'better' than Randa.

We can tell ourselves this all we want to make us feel better when we aren't dancing well

No. Not dancing well is a completely separate issue from not dancing like an Egyptian. Aziza & Suhaila & Rachel Brice don't dance like an Egyptian at all, but they dance damned fine!

BUT it all boils down to the fact that dancing is an emotional and physical interepration of music and it would be very boring if we all danced the exact same way.

Exactly! That's the point. Not better or worse. Different!

I love how Dunyah expressed the difference- that we Americans dance with an American accent. I absolutely think that is true, and I absolutely love watching egyptians dance because they have that ineffable quality that so far I have not heard described in any technique class. It is much for subtle than lifting your chest on the beat, stepping on the beat, repeating moves more...

I went to Fifi, and for ONE beautiful night, I felt like I had some of that egyptian thang flowing in my blood, but already it is fading! *sniff*

My delight in their quality of dance increases as I dance more. I love many, many american dancers as well, but for me to compare the two is like comparing passionfruit and mangoes.

shimmies,

Alimah

Yes. It happens to me all the time. My teacher will begin a split second before me, or else in the middle of a coreography I will look out of the corner of my eye and notice that she's a split second BEHIND me. Ocasionally she'll yell out.."Stay on the beat!" and I'll think to myself, I AM on the beat d@@mmit! grrrrr But what I hear as the beat is different to what she hears.
It's frustrating because I have no trouble dancing in perfect rhythm when it comes to any type of latin music, so at times it's confusing for me to "find" the beat that she's referring to.

Regards
Priscilla

Originally Posted by helenasdance

In an issue of ...I believe it was Zaghareet, Hossam Ramzy was answering a question posed to him regarding the difference in Turkish and Egyptian dancers. He said that Egyptian dancers always start down on the beat so therefore anyone who starts up on the beat is considered off from the music.

Do you think that this may be why some feel that Westerners are not technically on the beat? Has anyone else heard of this or has anyone else seen the article I am referring to?

.w.:

This thread came up in a conversation I had yesterday with some friends. We were talking about Christina Aguilera and her recent forays into blues-style singing, and how she sounds good but it sort of seems like an exercise in imitation rather than real blues. My brother mentioned something he'd read about Iggy Pop -- that he'd really loved the blues, but after living and studying with old bluesmen in Mississippi for a long time, he realized that he'd never be them, and it was pointless to keep trying. He went back to Detroit to form The Stooges and make what he called "my blues," because the music was a raw, honest outpouring of his emotions and experiences, which was what he'd really learned in Mississippi.

That's not to say that I don't think that Americans should try to do raqs sharqi, just that for me it is always the most affecting when the dancer is performing from her heart rather than imitating someone else. That holds true for me for both hardcore purists and fusionistas -- the best performers are the ones who have something of their own to say.

Originally Posted by asimatiyat

This thread came up in a conversation I had yesterday with some friends. We were talking about Christina Aguilera and her recent forays into blues-style singing, and how she sounds good but it sort of seems like an exercise in imitation rather than real blues. My brother mentioned something he'd read about Iggy Pop -- that he'd really loved the blues, but after living and studying with old bluesmen in Mississippi for a long time, he realized that he'd never be them, and it was pointless to keep trying. He went back to Detroit to form The Stooges and make what he called "my blues," because the music was a raw, honest outpouring of his emotions and experiences, which was what he'd really learned in Mississippi.

That's not to say that I don't think that Americans should try to do raqs sharqi, just that for me it is always the most affecting when the dancer is performing from her heart rather than imitating someone else. That holds true for me for both hardcore purists and fusionistas -- the best performers are the ones who have something of their own to say.

Just to add another musical point here--Amy Winehouse, a young Jewish woman from England, sings late 60s Etta James style blues. She's got a British accent and all the cultural references in her songs come from a modern UK context, and although her music contains classic blues horns and so on, there's also modern tech tricks going on. But when she sings, to me there is absolutely no disputing that she is part of the ever-evolving blues tradition because she is taking the form and singing from the heart with it. That's what I want to strive for as a dancer. No, I'll never be the same as an Egyptian dancer, but if I can do something with Egyptian style dance to Egyptian music that expresses something authentically from my heart, then I've done what I want to do.

(while you lot were all off seeing Fifi, I had the substantial consolation prize of a workshop and show with Faten Salama, so these thoughts have been very much in my mind the last week or so)

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

Just to add another musical point here--Amy Winehouse, a young Jewish woman from England, sings late 60s Etta James style blues. She's got a British accent and all the cultural references in her songs come from a modern UK context, and although her music contains classic blues horns and so on, there's also modern tech tricks going on. But when she sings, to me there is absolutely no disputing that she is part of the ever-evolving blues tradition because she is taking the form and singing from the heart with it. That's what I want to strive for as a dancer. No, I'll never be the same as an Egyptian dancer, but if I can do something with Egyptian style dance to Egyptian music that expresses something authentically from my heart, then I've done what I want to do.

(while you lot were all off seeing Fifi, I had the substantial consolation prize of a workshop and show with Faten Salama, so these thoughts have been very much in my mind the last week or so)

Exactly... Amy really sings from her own gin-soaked heart. :D

Were you in the DC area? I wish I'd seen you. Faten is pretty awesome.

I think there's nothing wrong with dancing like an American (whatever that may mean). You're taught a certain set of skills and you can do with it as you like. It like cloth or wood; you can take the base and work it to your advantage.

I think there's also something wrong with the idea of culture and how it affects one's dancing; I think it is a component, but I question how much of it is an influence. I grew with parents who listened to country and 1950s rock and roll; I couldn't dance to either to save my life. I had a bharatanatyam teacher who is as white as snow (or as she described herself, a German Jew) and somehow, she connected strongly with the music and culture, despite having been a ballet dancer for many years of her life. She said something within the music and danceform just clicked with her. She's been invited to dance in India, runs a very successful school, etc. I think there are exceptions to the rule when it comes to music and culture.

Back more on this topic. I don't want to dance and "pass" as an Egyptian. Physically, I know that's impossible. Perhaps what we should strive for is really connecting with the music and dance in our own ways.

One thing keeps popping into my head when reading the comments on this thread:

If there's no difference, why is everyone so excited when an arabic audience member says, "Are you Egyptian/Lebanese/Arabic? You dance like you are!"

Seriously, it's funny how we all just glom onto that comment as the highest order of compliment when someone says it. (We suspend the knowledge, of course, that belly dancers aren't necessarily held in the highest regard by said cultures). Personally, having had that comment a few times, I've got a bit of a cynical view of it. I think people are being gracious - which is lovely - but I also think they (men in particular) know what say to dancers and say it whether it's true or not. That's not to diminish their being as kind and appreciative as they know how...it's sweet. But, there are too many times the compliment and the "complimentee" just don't compute.

You have a point Dani, in my case, i think it's because I'm often mistaken for being ME, even when not dancing, mainly dark hair & eyes.

My point though (not that you're disputing it) is that people can dance well, no matter what their background is, but there are inherent differences when you grow up having learned something that is done socially -v- what you have learned as a performance art.

Yeah, Kina, I think the dark appearance does it for me too...it happens to me wherever I go in the mediterranean - "Are you______?"

I wasn't responding to your post which I thought was right on - more the earlier ones...g.:

This late to the beat discussion grew from the "Aida Noor" thread when she was misquoted so dreadfully and it was tied into to earlier discussion.
I was always encouraged not to "jump right onto the beat" but I think it is really about trying to "get" the Egyptian look which when you watch their good dancers is all about their relaxed way of making it look easy, almost as if great dancing were effortless. I would contrast luscious Randa Kamal in the Farha tour to the shiny showmanship of BDSS, which gave me the impression dancers are saying "Look how hard we have worked for you".
That doesn't make the US dancers bad or lesser dancers - just different!
I have to say I would chose the first concert over the second any time but that is my personal preference and some of my students go for BDSS all the way.
I , personally enjoy watching the best Egyptian dancers but no way would I not enjoy a performance by those who have soaked up the Egyptian culture and way of life such as Asmahan of Argentina, Soraya of Brazil and Yasmina of England.
The important thing is, again for me personally is that the dancers I have enjoyed the most live : Randa, Bozenka, Khaled Mahmoud , Sara Farouk and more locally Photo of Bhuz and Houda of Leeds all bring that extra factor to great technique and dedication , a great big dollop of themselves. On , off or just behind the beat they are very very good to watch.

I think the differences become more and more muted as the world becomes more informed. Internet really has changed things a lot, I'm sure.

Now, I've never been to the Middle East, but from the videos and dancers I've seen who are from there or have lived there for a portion of their lives - there IS a difference. That's not to say there aren't exceptions... but when I see an Egyptian dancer, what I get from their dancing is an appreciation for their small, subtle movements. Somehow, with those little nuances, they manage to express the music in a very dramatic way, packed with emotion and feeling. When overcome with emotion, I think dancers not from the Middle East tend to "overact" with big, dramatic movements. Plus, our society over-analyzes things, which can lead to really predictable choreographies.

But then, I also think there are a lot of exceptions so making generalizations isn't really very fair.

Oh, and I was taught (by Denise Enan, a Canadian teacher and native Egyptian) that in regards to being on the beat... Egyptian style is sweet when you take your sweet time getting there. No rushing... not too busy...

If anything, I think "we" (non-Middle Eastern) jump the beat too often - particularly during choreographies. (Guilty of this one, myself)!

The choreography and over choreography aspect is an important one, Adi.

I was talking to Roxanne and Carolynn last night about the fact that it suprises me that on the "Fifi Weekend" thread - everyone seems to have some kind of revelation about things that are completely NOT new discussions here on bhuz - in fact, we've discussed these things ad nauseum - taking your time, not over working the music, being IN the music not ON it. But, their point - I think - and an important one in terms of the whole "difference" question was seeing it truly embodied and having it click in the mind in a different way.

"She commented that ME women are not in charge of their own desire. They can't act as independently as we can. My understanding is that when they dance (socially), they're responding to emotional frustrations and limitations that we simply don't experience. It's their safety valve in a different way than it is for us. It's hard to put into words but I think I understand what she was getting at."

Interesting idea...do you think then that women who have experienced a culture of controlled desires would perhaps dance more like ME natives? I am thinking in particular of a girl I knew last year who came from a very religiously strict family...at the time I knew her she hadn't told her family that she was taking classes (she was only 19). I am curious to see how this would show in her dancing (she was wonderful to watch, even as a beginner!).
Nikki