Thread: On the beat?

Following the thread about Princess Madiha, I was intrigued to find this on her website.

<What is the difference between American dancers and Arabic dancers?
You see, the Arabic dancer - not all of them, I'm talking about the real artists, the ones born with talent - when she is dancing, she is preparing her body for the next sentence of the music. She knows when this part of the music is going to end and when the next part will begin. The American girl does not know the music as well, and does not know when [the sentence] begins and when it ends, so she will be behind a split second>

Now, didn't we just have a thread about how western dancers hit the beat too early whilst the laid back Arabic dancers dance slightly behind the beat, implying that the latter is the correct way?

Confused,

Originally Posted by jahbie

Following the thread about Princess Madiha, I was intrigued to find this on her website.

<What is the difference between American dancers and Arabic dancers?
You see, the Arabic dancer - not all of them, I'm talking about the real artists, the ones born with talent - when she is dancing, she is preparing her body for the next sentence of the music. She knows when this part of the music is going to end and when the next part will begin. The American girl does not know the music as well, and does not know when [the sentence] begins and when it ends, so she will be behind a split second>

Now, didn't we just have a thread about how western dancers hit the beat too early whilst the laid back Arabic dancers dance slightly behind the beat, implying that the latter is the correct way?

Confused,

You know, to be honest, I get tired of all this $@#! about western dancers not being able to connect with the music, or successfully express the emotion of a piece, or be able to dance as well as any Arab woman or man, period. If I know what the singer is singing about, I can portray the emotions in my dancing. Maybe I have not had the same exact experience, for example, of suffering, as an Arab man or woman, but we are all human afterall, and who hasn't experienced sadness, hardship, or heartache? Most of the songs I have danced to seem to center around love, lost love, or unrequited love. I have been there, and done that. And, I am a rhythmically-abled (I think I just made up a new PC term!), so I can dance to music in a way that reflects what the musicians are playing, and how they are playing it. It seems to me that some Arab dancers like to make an issue of the whole native-born Arab culture thing to try to imply that they offer some superior level of knowledge, skill and insight, in order to discredit the western competition. I love seeing Mona Said dance. She is wonderful. But, I don't believe that an Arab dancer is necessarily going to always be the better dancer just because she grew up with the music and the culture. An Arab woman, for example, may have been hip-dropping since she was a small child, but if I put her up against a trained western dancer who has studied the music and the technique for 10 years, I can't say that I will find the Arab woman a better, or more entertaining and emotionally "authentic", dancer.

I agree with your comments on this. On another note, I think it's one thing to be proud of your heritage but to say someone can't do something well because of their nationality can be dangerous.

we all know some "western" dancers don't have rhythm. i'm not gonna say it's always a color thing because- like me my mom is black- and she has no rhythm. she can't clap on beat. while i think some white dancers have great rhythm. but we all know some people have none and we've all seen dancers dance all around the beat and never actually hit it. i'm sure there are Arabs with no rhythm either but then again they aren't professional dancers either.

Originally Posted by gotraqs

You know, to be honest, I get tired of all this $@#! about western dancers not being able to connect with the music, or successfully express the emotion of a piece, or be able to dance as well as any Arab woman or man, period. If I know what the singer is singing about, I can portray the emotions in my dancing. Maybe I have not had the same exact experience, for example, of suffering, as an Arab man or woman, but we are all human afterall, and who hasn't experienced sadness, hardship, or heartache? Most of the songs I have danced to seem to center around love, lost love, or unrequited love. I have been there, and done that. And, I am a rhythmically-abled (I think I just made up a new PC term!), so I can dance to music in a way that reflects what the musicians are playing, and how they are playing it. It seems to me that some Arab dancers like to make an issue of the whole native-born Arab culture thing to try to imply that they offer some superior level of knowledge, skill and insight, in order to discredit the western competition. I love seeing Mona Said dance. She is wonderful. But, I don't believe that an Arab dancer is necessarily going to always be the better dancer just because she grew up with the music and the culture. An Arab woman, for example, may have been hip-dropping since she was a small child, but if I put her up against a trained western dancer who has studied the music and the technique for 10 years, I can't say that I will find the Arab woman a better, or more entertaining and emotionally "authentic", dancer.

Personally, I do see a difference in the level of connection to the music -- I'm a big music nerd, and I can tell the difference between someone who has grown up with a song and has memories attached to it vs. someone who just sees it from a technical perspective. Granted, some American dancers can pull off the "omg they're playing my song" thing that the great Arabic dancers have, but in my experience they're generally Americans who've lived in the Middle East, like Tamra-henna or Yasmin.

Granted I am nothing special in terms of raqs sharqi, but as much as I have loved Arabic music for ages, and might know and strongly relate to the lyrics of a song like Daret al-Ayam, it's not going to be the same for me as how I react to a song by Patti Smith, that I have really strong cultural and personal ties to.

I don't think it has anything to do with rhythm, though. There are plenty of American dancers who are brilliant at working with rhythm.

I agree with you Asimatiyat.

I had a funny experience last week - I was talking to my weight counselor - a Lebanese girl and she informed me that she "bought a tribal bellydance dvd because, well after all it's her culture." LOL!!! ..g.: :zillevil:

I just smiled and said, "oh...uh-huh...interesting."

How come no one told me tribal was lebanese?

That's pretty funny, Dani..... =)

Both non-Arabic and Arabic women can be guilty of dancing off their music from time to time! In fact, believe it or not, I actually have an old video of Dina in which is off her music for several counts!!

For the most part, what you said is correct, from my understanding, when Arabic women are off their music, they do tend to be more slow than fast. But its hard to make these generalities because all dancers from all countries are capable of dancing on the beat, off the beat, behind the beat, ahead of the beat!!!

I agree with both Gotraqs and Asimatiyat. I'm tired of all comments about "we can't do it like they can" when the bottom line is either you can dance or you can't, and not all ME'ers are naturally talented dancers anymore than all Westerners are.

On the other hand, like Asimatiyat, I do think ME'ers are naturally going to have more of a connection to the music they grew up with than we are. Music evokes memories and emotions from our past. Led Zeppelin does the same for me ..g.: ! But memories can be made at any time and there are some ME numbers that put me in mind of my prime dancing days 20 years ago, so they can become a part of who you are.

As for the dancing before or after the beat, I think that's more about moving the body to music in a relaxed and natural way as opposed to over anticipating. I think that when you are used to moving to music, it's not really an issue you even consciously think about, which is the case with people that have danced most of their lives as many of the ME greats have.

Beat? There's a beat? I'm supposed to be dancing to a beat?

So one observer thinks we dance too early on the beat, another thinks we dance too late. *shrug* People disagree all the time.

For me, the biggest thing lacking when I watch Western dancers is that relaxed joy, the almost trance-like enjoyment of the music, the movement, the moment. Western dancers seem to be in their heads instead of dancing from their spirit. (I include myself).

For me personally, as an audience member, any technical differences are totally secondary to that one major difference.

Actually dancing is like singing. imagine a jazz song. we imporvise! And what makes the song tense, waving, what gives accents to it? if we are behind the rhythm and then at some parts get back to it on purpose all the time! If you can do thi s in dance you are a dance artist if not, a dancer who has some things to develop. me as a dancer - I have not yet improved this ability but am aware of it as I sing. and arabic music IS jazz - it is folk impro, and that is jazz...
Lauren you are so,so, so right when saying westerners are still in their heads not the spirit. remeber in arab countries the centre of human spirit is not hte heart but the belly.
dance with the energy centres activated in the belly (for those who do yoga it is obvious. if you do not care about it - it is still true!)
sorry if I sound strange but english is my second language.

The lady who is going to be my supervisor, who is Lebanese, made an intriguing comment when I first talked to her about belly dancing. I had to pick it apart to comprehend properly. She said Kiwis shouldn't even try to dance like ME people because they can't - but it's not about us being inferior, it's about us having such a vastly different culturally constructed sense of self that why we dance and why they dance are two wildly different things. She commented that ME women are not in charge of their own desire. They can't act as independently as we can. My understanding is that when they dance (socially), they're responding to emotional frustrations and limitations that we simply don't experience. It's their safety valve in a different way than it is for us. It's hard to put into words but I think I understand what she was getting at.

Interesting thread. I like what everyone has said. My two cents: we Westerners may "speak" the language of raqs sharqi with an accent and we may never lose that accent. But hearing your native language spoken with an accent, such as a French or Spanish accent in English, can be extremely charming and refreshing, like appreciating your own language in a new way. So I think we should not be ashamed of having an accent when we dance, or try to deny that we have one. We should keep learning and growing in the dance, and like someone said, try to get to the place where we can dance with our spirits more than our minds.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

For me, the biggest thing lacking when I watch Western dancers is that relaxed joy, the almost trance-like enjoyment of the music, the movement, the moment. Western dancers seem to be in their heads instead of dancing from their spirit. (I include myself).

It depends a bit, I think on where and when we dance. In the regular weekly classes, and in more traditional recital-style events, the head is probably more driving. I think when it comes to the average amateur dancer, many dancers don't have a chance to loose their head.

What has made a difference for me is dancing for long hours, especially at Pennsic. After a couple of hours of dancing around fires, to use Dunyah's wonderful metaphor, you start losing that accent - not completely, but you start speaking more naturally.

The human eye cannot catch a split second difference in movement. That is why they evented stop watches. So whats the point a split second early or late.... Now seconds early or late is different. That you can see with the naked eye....

If you have the lyrics and know your music you can draw on your own lifes experience to match that emotion. Not every arabic person has the same experience that the song writer wrote. So they do not really know what the depth of meaning that the song writer has or does so they can only interpret that same meaning as us. Some Arabs are rich never worked a day in their life others are poor and suffer. They have wars we have ours what country didn't. The experiences ARE the same..... Just as their blood runs red like ours..... WE ALL ARE THE SAME.....

This total statement is lame and is nothing more than a put downof American dancers. Any trained dancer who KNOWs her music WELL will know what the next sentence or measure is going to be... unless they, like I did last week never heard the song and got stuck dancing to it and just faked it a best I could. But when I have my choice of music. I know what the next fraze is going to be.

Another example would be my competition music. I've been listening to it for the last three months even in my sleep as the stereo plays in repeat mode. You could turn that music on in any part of the song I will know what comes next. Heck my body knows what is coming next. and I'm truely sick of listening to it.

sorry for the yelling... I'm out of here.. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,m::

Zumarrad - that is really intriguing and buyable IMO.

Lucinia, culturally we are not all the same and our cultures influence our output, whether that is dance, art, cooking or whatever. There's nothing pejorative in that - we're just not all the same. thank god.

Originally Posted by danidance

Zumarrad - that is really intriguing and buyable IMO.

Lucinia, culturally we are not all the same and our cultures influence our output, whether that is dance, art, cooking or whatever. There's nothing pejorative in that - we're just not all the same. thank god.

Cyulture no emotion yes.... dance is emotion.... in that we all are the same... human

Yeah, it may not *look* objectively different if a Western-born dancer who is gifted, skilled, understands Arabic language and gesture and reeaaallly knows her music performs to Om Kholsoum or Fairouz or Warda. But it is likely to come from a slightly different place in the heart. Maybe that's the "indefinable difference" serious viewers of the dance detect, who knows.

As a Western dancer I used to think the same. I had been dancing 13 years before I game to Egypt and had a very Egyptian background. I thought it it to false and not fair to say that foreigners can't dance like Egyptians, can't have the feeling. We have so many good teachers outside of Egypt and teachers from Egypt travel all the time. (I'm not talking about other styles now at all. And I talk about mostly professional dancers. Not all Egyptians can dance.)

Now, after actually working and dancing in Egypt, I agree. Only a few Western dancer get the Egyptian feeling and that's usually after actually living - or even better yet - dancing in Egypt. And it's not something dancer picks up in a month or two. First year is for learning.

This not only in oriental dance. I saw some second generation Canadian-whats the word for Cyprus people. Their parents left Cyprus and moved to Canada and their children were doing different kinds of folk dances. For a one week I had been watching children from Cyprus to do their performance almost daily. After the week I saw same dances done by these other children, who had very strong roots to the culture. It didn't look the same. The steps were right and same. I can't say what was the difference, but it was there. The feeling was missing in the latter performance. Interestingly they had more show feeling. Like "I can do all these tricks". Just like what many Western oriental dancer have.

On this subject I can go both ways I suppose.

In my expierence, the Egyptian, Turkish and Arabs I have met are; how should I say this without hurting feelings? They tend to be VERY proud of their culture and found it puzzling that I would know something of their culture. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, oh, you know what that means, or your American, how do you know that? They spoke it with such surprise like their culture was theirs and the rest of the world would never know or understand. So, to their surprise, some Americans can dance, speak and know about Egyptian and Arab culture and language. It's just hard for them to accept b/c some have such pride in their culture.
I'm proud of my American heritage but I would never say someone who isn't American could NEVER dance square dancing the same or the jitterbug, or dance the shag from the south like an American. It's just ridiculous to say something like that.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Michelle

Hmmm. Are you sure their surprise was due to their "pride in their culture", and not that an American would take interest in it? I think we have a (pretty well-deserved, imo) reputation for being insular, and incurious about other cultures.

Exactly, Taj.

Originally Posted by Taj

Hmmm. Are you sure their surprise was due to their "pride in their culture", and not that an American would take interest in it? I think we have a (pretty well-deserved, imo) reputation for being insular, and incurious about other cultures.

I did see once Chinese students dance ballroom dances. They did it very well. The timing and everything was perfect. Asian people they work really hard when they study anything so as usual they had worked really hard. But the soul was missing. For my eyes (and other dance enthusiastic) it didn't look same.

For example Finnish made some Broadway musical type of show in Helsinki. It had professional dancers, professional choreographers and directors, but it didn't look the same. We Finnish are not same like Americans. They looked more like poor cousins than actual stars. It was well done, but result was not the same.

I think that the simpler the contexts of the dance, the steps and everything else, the easier it is to learn as an outsider from the culture. Oriental dance is not simple in any way.

That's what I was thinking too, square dancing is pretty easy. Just stay on the beat and step in time. You can't really compare it to oriental dance which involves so much more than knowing a rhythm by heart or anticipating a change in beat.
I once sent some video clips to a friend in Egypt who doesn't know much about bellydancing, and much less about who's who.
He was able to pick out the Egyptian dancer EVERY time. And he was just as accurate about the foreign dancers, he didn't know where they were from but he'd just say.."She's not Egyptian." When I asked him how he could possibly know this, he didn't seem to have a concrete answer. He said "I don't know, it's just different."

Regards
Priscilla

Originally Posted by outi

I think that the simpler the contexts of the dance, the steps and everything else, the easier it is to learn as an outsider from the culture. Oriental dance is not simple in any way.

Originally Posted by jessedan

I once sent some video clips to a friend in Egypt who doesn't know much about bellydancing, and much less about who's who.
He was able to pick out the Egyptian dancer EVERY time. And he was just as accurate about the foreign dancers, he didn't know where they were from but he'd just say.."She's not Egyptian." When I asked him how he could possibly know this, he didn't seem to have a concrete answer. He said "I don't know, it's just different."

Regards
Priscilla

When I attended Ahlan wa Sahlan in 2000, I heard variations of the same thing over and over: "Yes, Western dancers try hard, but they can never dance like Egyptians." At first it made me mad, but then I started thinking about it and really watching the dancers, especially Dina, and I can see their point. The shared culture aspect of an Egyptian dancer is *very* hard for non-Egyptians to replicate. And my musings on the shared culture phenomenon led to research, analysis, and a workshop: The Secret Element of Egyptian Dance.

Part of the "secret" is the hidden subtext of language -- the way that Egyptian dancers dance to the lyrics, even if there aren't any vocals. But it goes beyond that, which is why we only scratch the surfance when we learn the lyrics to a particular song.

And now I will don my asbestos galabiya and wait to be flamed, for agreeing with the Egyptians on this....

Ok. I do see both sides of the issue. And, I really liked Zumarrad's story about the Lebanese co-worker. I think it is not really an issue of technical ability, or the ability to express oneself, but rather a question of how well the dancer portrays the "typical" Egyptian person's response to the music/lyrics. But to me, that all is subjective. Sure, an Egyptian may better express how an average Egyptian (whatever that is) may feel about the lyrics, coming from the culture, but an American can still be good at expressing the lyrics through the eyes of a Westerner. I guess if you just want to dance like an Egyptian, then a westerner would be at a disadvantage. I don't try to dance like anyone but myself though. I express what I feel through my dancing, not what anyone else, much less an American, or an Egyptian feels. It's not my goal to dance like an Egyptian in every aspect, including my personality and emotion.

Now the question is- do you just have to grow up in an Arab culture to be able to authentically express the music through dance, according to Arab people? Or, to express Egyptian sentiment with authenticity, do you have to be Egyptian? Can a Lebanese person adequately do the job? Egypt and Lebanon are not exactly the same in culture or shared experiences.

I guess it depends on who you ask. According to Arab people, yes.
As for Lebanese dancers, it depends on the dancer and if she indeed IS a dancer. Most of the girls you see on the Lebanese video clips are not dancers and it´s obvious. So you can´t really use them as examples of oriental dance.
Lebs (at least, those who are dancers) dance like Lebs, and Egyptians like Egyptians. They're different cultures. But they ALL dance like arabs.
I see Suha Azar dance quite often, and although I can see what she's doing and how she does it, I sure as heck can't do it myself. She just dances...well like an arab.
Regards
Priscilla

Originally Posted by gotraqs

Now the question is- do you just have to grow up in an Arab culture to be able to authentically express the music through dance, according to Arab people? Or, to express Egyptian sentiment with authenticity, do you have to be Egyptian? Can a Lebanese person adequately do the job? Egypt and Lebanon are not exactly the same in culture or shared experiences.

At the Friday night show at Fifi, I saw a lot of GREAT dancing. But only two dancers who I thought really captured the feeling of oriental dance -- and they both turned out to be of the culture. Some, like Lotus Niraja, were great precisely because they embraced their American-ness!

Egyptians seem to really value being relaxed, patient. They remind me of the people I would encounter at a yoga retreat in that way. But they also live -- and dance -- from their hearts, very in touch with emotion & don't value controlling emotion in daily life as we do. We're Vulcans compared to them. When the music starts, the Egyptian dancer wafts off into a trance and shares that state with her audience. It's different. Not necessarily 'better,' but very different.

Turkish dancers are also different in feeling from Egyptians, and so are Lebanese dancers. Latina dancers have a different flavor to their dance than Americans, and so do Russians. Nour and Soraya don't dance like Fifi. And that's what makes them great.

I don't want to be the stereotypical American robot, blasting off rapid-fire tricks during a drum solo. (well...not all the time, anyway) But if I try to dance as someone besides myself, I will look ridiculous.

I hadn't meant to put the cat among the pigeons with this post, I don't think the lady was putting down Western dancers. She just said we dance differently, not worse. The thing that interested me is the point about dancing behind the beat. I can't find the thread that we had about that recently, but the gist of it was that we think it is the Egyptians who dance slightly behind the beat, so I was interested to see that an Arabic dancer sees it the other way round.

As a student who studied with Princess Madiha for over 15 years I feel obligated to speak. If you are not familar with her style and you have not studied from her you truly have no idea what an amazing artist she is. This woman was born with music for blood. I come from a musical family myself and I'm constantly in awe of her ability to hear and feel the music. She only teaches really complex Arabic music. And she believes that a trained dancer is required to follow each and every instrument and each and every beat. You can't ignore the what's there because that beat, that rhythm, that instrument has meaning and was put there for a purpose. A lot of dancers tend to ignore phrasing and don't complete the sentence. They either stop too soon, or they change the step in the middle.

I used to get so frustrated when I first started with her because I always thought I was dancing to the beat yet she would constantly tell me I was out of beat! It took me years of studying music with her to realize she was right! As a westerner I was trained to hear: 1,2,3 4, If I saw her do a shimmy twist my eye translated 2 shakes on one side, and 2 shakes on the other. In reality, she'd be doing something more like, shake, tatatata shake.

And you notice she said not all Arabic dancers, just the ones who are real artists. There are plenty of Arabic dancers who don't have a rhythmic bone in their body just as there are dancers of other nationalities who do.

If you read the full article in context she goes on to say that no matter what type of music you are dancing to it's important to really listen to the music. I personally don't consider myself knowing the music until I can sing the melody and all the different dums and tuks and stops and goes.

Madiha's style is very difficult to learn because it can't be confined to Step A to this part and step B to this part. All her steps are directly related to the music, so while step A may be a hip drop, it won't be up down, up down, but takkka takka ta or taka taka taka ta. The physical movement is up and down but once you follow the actual beat the instrument is playing it looks like a different step.

As far as hitting the beat to early or too late, neither is correct. You should hit the beat exactly on. Usually in class when we follow her we are a split second late because we are waiting to hear the beat and see what she's doing. The same if you perform with a live band and aren't very familar with a song. You are late. Many dancers do the opposite and anticipate the beat before it actually arrives and then they are rushed and ahead of the beat.

But an artist knows exactly when and where the beat will strike and she hits it dead on.

Originally Posted by jahbie

Following the thread about Princess Madiha, I was intrigued to find this on her website.

<What is the difference between American dancers and Arabic dancers?
You see, the Arabic dancer - not all of them, I'm talking about the real artists, the ones born with talent - when she is dancing, she is preparing her body for the next sentence of the music. She knows when this part of the music is going to end and when the next part will begin. The American girl does not know the music as well, and does not know when [the sentence] begins and when it ends, so she will be behind a split second>

Now, didn't we just have a thread about how western dancers hit the beat too early whilst the laid back Arabic dancers dance slightly behind the beat, implying that the latter is the correct way?

Confused,