Thread: Sections in the Music: Turkish vs Egyptian

I've gotten more into Turkish music and especially Turkish Rrom style dancing in the last year. I've been spending a lot of time listening and learning what little I can about different stylistic approaches.

So here's a dumb question:

In Turkish style dancing are there different approaches to sections in the music from Egyptian?

When I listen to the music I can 'see' an Egyptian approach to entrances, exits, rhythmic and takasim sections but that's an Egyptian 'headset'. I'd like to know more about the Turkish approach to these musical sections and phrases. What are the key differences if any?

Given that Romani-style dancing is more of a social dance, you won't find too many epic pieces composed with entrance and finale and some such. Instead, a lot of music are folk tunes, with a taxim about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way.

Given that Romani-style dancing is more of a social dance, you won't find too many epic pieces composed with entrance and finale and some such

This is an excellent point, though I presume that dancers would still acknowledge/respond to changes in the music in a certain way.

How about Turkish Oriental? Are there differences there?

From my understanding, a turkish show includes several songs, with specific elements in each different song.....

For example in a typical show that I do....
1 song veil the entire time
1 song taxim with floor work
1 up beat song typicaly a karshlima(mix)
1 song drum solo

Here is me doing some dancing to turkish music this is not pure turkish I have influences from all sorts of dance....I also have a romani karshlima that I will have to post later, It isnt uploaded yet.....Hope this helps

p.s also wearing zills is a must.....but I dont I hate them....

p.p.s. From my uderstanding there is also things like omis, alternating hip lifts, arabesques etc that are NOT used in turkish at all, replace them with hops and skips....crap i have more, the down and up pelvis are also not used in egyptian but is a key element

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv_sHOdfgHk]YouTube - Annwyn with veil[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78hLVb5Yb0&feature=related]YouTube - Annwyn Belly Dancing to the Karsilama[/ame]

Also for the karshilma you dance on the 1347...89 for orienatal
for the romani 13578 so the emphasis in on those beats rather than just flowing through the song

Originally Posted by annwyn

From my understanding, a turkish show includes several songs, with specific elements in each different song.....

For example in a typical show that I do....
1 song veil the entire time
1 song taxim with floor work
1 up beat song typicaly a karshlima(mix)
1 song drum solo

Here is me doing some dancing to turkish music this is not pure turkish I have influences from all sorts of dance....I also have a romani karshlima that I will have to post later, It isnt uploaded yet.....Hope this helps

p.s also wearing zills is a must.....but I dont I hate them....

p.p.s. From my uderstanding there is also things like omis, alternating hip lifts, arabesques etc that are NOT used in turkish at all, replace them with hops and skips....crap i have more, the down and up pelvis are also not used in egyptian but is a key element

I like your karlsima(sp)

OOPS I see i spelled it worng too.....It is spelled Karsilama

Ok here is the Roma, to a karsilama..........Again it isnt pure, but a good example of dancing to the music and the 9/8 rythm, you can also see the difference in the 2 karsilamas one roma and the other turkish cab (my versions).....I hope it helps you.......Let me know
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHx2tEXNIcU]YouTube - Annwyn Turkish Romani Inspiration[/ame]

Thanks for all your kind help Annwyn.
I'm going to inspect all of these very closely when I have a good opportunity. I only have internet access at work and I'd like time to watch these at leisure.

I'd add, though, that not all Turkish music is in a 9/8 meter. There is a whole lot of 2s/4s/8s, including many chiftis.

Another difference in the music is the instrumentation, and how the instruments are played. I am not an expert drummer, but from what I know, there is quite a bit of difference in Turkish-style vs. Egyptian drumming, including the so-called split-finger technique. You won't find a cumbus or a clarinet too often in Egypt, either ;-)

My recommendation is - listen to the music, a lot. Istanbul Oriental Ensemble is great, great, great. Ensemble Turkmenler has lots of CDs - they ain't my cuppa, but they have a best-of CD on emusic which could be a useful choice.

Originally Posted by steffib

I'd add, though, that not all Turkish music is in a 9/8 meter. There is a whole lot of 2s/4s/8s, including many chiftis.

Another difference in the music is the instrumentation, and how the instruments are played. I am not an expert drummer, but from what I know, there is quite a bit of difference in Turkish-style vs. Egyptian drumming, including the so-called split-finger technique. You won't find a cumbus or a clarinet too often in Egypt, either ;-)

My recommendation is - listen to the music, a lot. Istanbul Oriental Ensemble is great, great, great. Ensemble Turkmenler has lots of CDs - they ain't my cuppa, but they have a best-of CD on emusic which could be a useful choice.

Now this is above me, Im not an expert on the chiftis....the karsilma is more my field

Now this is above me, I'm not an expert on the chiftis....the karsilma is more my field

Karsilama is the one I can get my head around at the moment. I'm just discovering chifitis and I haven't got a good feel for them yet. I just keep telling myself that its like a skewed version of the wadi kabira.

Elizabeth Artemis Mourat is a wealth of information on Turkish style. Her website is Artemis home page

Also, Eva Cernik is an amazing Turkish style dancer, I haven't seen much from her in quite some time, but I think she'd be a must for someone studying the style. Eva Cernik, Oriental Dance Performer, Teacher, & Tour Guide to Turkey & Egypt

There is a tribe on, well, tribe that is dedicated to Turkish style: !Turkish Style! - tribe.net
They truly do dissect the movements etc of Turkish style, plus the most comprehensive discussion of karsilama I've seen on line to date.

The closest i come to doing Turkish style is the remakes of the Arabic classics that are currently popular, like those on Asena's cd's. I was originally trained in American Caberet which draws heavily on Turkish style, but no longer trust much of what I was taught as being "original" as in fact being Turkish in origin.

However, the sets seem to consist of songs, not so much one song with sweeping rhythm changes etc. However, taksims are still a part of it. Chiftetelli which I apparently can't write out is an important part of the set, at least here. Dunno about in Turkey.

Originally Posted by khadiya

Karsilama is the one I can get my head around at the moment. I'm just discovering chifitis and I haven't got a good feel for them yet. I just keep telling myself that its like a skewed version of the wadi kabira.

Well, it is and it isn't. They are the same base rhythm, but are used completely differently. In Turkish music, the chiftetelli can be an entire song, where in Arabic music it's used more as an accent rhythm, in my experience. Maybe it's more the modern use of the rhythm?

In Turkish, chiftetlli can be fast ( as in Asena's cd, Tatli Ciftetelli) or slow as in Ahlam Dhosa in the Wash Ya Wash Vol IV. My students groan when I put this on, I make them drill to this.

Khadiya - I don't know if this is of any help, but I stumbled across this info whilst watching Taktaba: Episode 2: Long-Term Repetition (Finally!) The presenter Nadira Jamal (who I think is on Bhuz??), says that the structure of Turkish, Greek and Armenian music often follows a "verse, chorus, taqsim structure" (about 51m into the episode). I would assume and intro and finale as well.

I'm not expert, so can't judge whether this is accurate, or not, but it seemed relevant to this thread!

BTW - Taktaba is a great resource!

If one listens to a lot of Turkish folk tunes, the musicians often repeat the basic song (chorus-verse) twice, taksim, and then go back to the basic song. If the basic song part is short, or if the song has many chapters, they may not follow that pattern. Or they may have a shorter section after the taksim. Or they may have two taksims, or they may throw in a chorus before the taksim, or ....

The best thing to do is to listen to the music a lot, because that's a good way to get a hang of what's gonna happen in the taksim, and you also start getting the hang of when and how the musicians are gonna wrap up.

Originally Posted by deelybopper

Khadiya - I don't know if this is of any help, but I stumbled across this info whilst watching Taktaba: Episode 2: Long-Term Repetition (Finally!) The presenter Nadira Jamal (who I think is on Bhuz??), says that the structure of Turkish, Greek and Armenian music often follows a "verse, chorus, taqsim structure" (about 51m into the episode). I would assume and intro and finale as well.

I'm not expert, so can't judge whether this is accurate, or not, but it seemed relevant to this thread!

BTW - Taktaba is a great resource!

Turkish is one of my favourite styles, but I am also no expert, there is always more to learn. I'm having fun getting my own head round the 7/8 at the moment.

Some of my students first thought Turkish music was a bit "waily" or out of tune, but they soon got used to it. That's probably because the Turks use microtones (not just the quarter tones that the rest of the Arab world seems to use). Fell free to refute me on this btw, as I say, I'm no expert, and that goes for music too.

For those getting heads round the karsilama, I would refer straight to Artemis Mourat for her excellent explanation of the rhythm in her DVD. It's performed/danced in a few different ways - Morocco is running a workshop at Celebrating Dance in Torquay later this year if anyone wants to find out the differences. I'm going!

Deelybopper, ta for posting that link, will have a nosey xx

Thanks D and Kathy ..g.:

Will check out the link when I have a bit more time. I think I phrased my original question badly though because my main worry wasn't so much getting a handle on the music or how to approach the rhythm which I am learning more about every day. There are so many excellent resources for this.

What was preoccupying me was how a dancer would respond in terms of tone/style moves for each section. I can 'see' how an Egyptian style dancer would approach the entrance section of an individual song but I wanted to know what, if anything, a Turkish style dancer would/would not do in comparison.