Thread: 1200s-1600s bellydance history?

Hi everybody,

I am in a summer school Renaissance and Medieval class. We have to do a research paper on anything that went on during this time in any part of the world, and I'd like to do bellydance, but is there enough information floating around on the topic to do an 8 page paper on? I'm having trouble finding bellydance history specific to this time period. Anyone?

Bellydance didn't exist then. It was invented in 1926 in its present form and is based on raqs baladi. There's a great deal of misinformation out there on the web about this. A large problem with dance history is that since we have no videos, we can't be certain how they danced back then. Zumarrad and Shira know a lot about the history, they would be wonderful resources.

I just googled 'bellydance history' and am sorry to see how many links there are to misinformation. Anyone have any ideas on what we can do to change that? Especially with all this out there, it's a lot harder to explain the real history with so many people telling stories.

Try contacting a local SCA group or try the web for people in the know. There is so much you could choose to write your paper on...and I agree it would be very difficult to write it on bellydance or any dance form for that matter.

You could always look into various aspects of the dance -- recreation/leisure activities, the role of women in a household, religion (Chrisitanity vs Islam vs Judaism), the influence exploration and trade had on bringing an Eastern perspective to the Western world...but then I love history... ..g.:

Dance is such an ephemeral art, it exists in the moment and then it is gone. And while the dance no doubt inspires artists, the Islamic religion forbids depictions of the human form in art, so unless a visiting Western artist or a Middle Eastern Christian artist made drawings, there are no pictorial records from that time period (that I am aware of). The Orientalist painters came later.

There was a very interesting period of time in the 1200-1500 period in Spain (Al Andalus) when the Moors were in power and there was a marvelous blending of Islamic, Christian, and Jewish culture. Maybe you could do some research on that? There is wonderful music that has survived from that period. Check out "Historical Perspectives on Andalusian Music" by Elena Villa, on my website: Articles by Elena Villa for more information and even a bibliography.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Bellydance didn't exist then.

Depends on how you define 'bellydance.' Raks Sharki in its modern form (arguably) was developed in the '20s, but Raks Baladi, Ouled Nail, Roman Havasi, Ghawazee and other forms recognizable as 'bellydance' might have & probably did exist.

The Edison clips predate 1926 by several decades, but are certainly recognizable as 'bellydance'.

There are VERY few reliable sources of information on Middle Eastern dance history though. And what little (mis)information exists in print is copied, reworked & rewritten so often that by sheer repetition it gets recognized as fact.

Lauren- I agree, as I said 'in its modern form' re: Masabni. It is POSSIBLE that these other dances did exist, but again, it's very hard to research dance history.

The misinformation to which I refer is the 'started as a fertility dance, goddess, oldest dance in the world' thing.

Awww! I R an authority!

BD as we know it didn't exist then, no, but there was certainly dancing and it probably looked a bit similar. The man to track down is Asim - his blog is Apostate

He is into SCA and has done a lot of research into the dances of those older time periods. He'll have resources I am sure.

Anthony Shay has also written a fair bit of stuff on historical Persian dance, but I don't know if it goes back quite that far.

Aren't you doing your thesis on bellydance history, Zum?

Bellydance in NZ as a globalised transcultural activity, so the history part only really relates to NZ history (ie from the 70s, with a nod to 20s-50s Orientalism) and how that fits into the generic post-Sol/ME diaspora into US storyline. And the history part gets smaller by the day. I have a terrible fear I might have to leave it out altogether.

I can see that as a problem. I am very interested in accurate history (well, as close as we can get). So any refutation is fine with me. I love to learn!

a paper on something with a disputed history can be very interesting, especially for a history professor who doesn't know much about the topic.

perhaps consider including the proliferation of "fake-lore" as a sub-topic in the paper.

present differing and opposing views of the dance history. part of the dance's history is the lack of reputable early sources and divergent theories as to why there is a lack of documentation...and what has been done to fill in those gaps.

some people think x, and cite 1,2,3
some scholars say y, and cite 4,5,6
etc.
will make for an interesting read, and that's part of your grade, right?

I'm very much into determining that you can only ever have "a" history or "histories" and that they're entirely subjective. The one key rationale for doing OUR history, partial (in many senses of the word) as it is, is that it expands the official popular history of BD and incorporates people other than US people, and also includes ME developments through the 20th century. Most of the popular books go "vague mystickal ancient temple fertility, awalim/ghawazee, The Amazing Sol Bloom!!!, Americans share this fabu dance that they have rescued with the rest of the world, hooray." Essentially. Even British ones.

But if word length demands, it will go away. Wah.

Most of the popular books go "vague mystickal ancient temple fertility, awalim/ghawazee, The Amazing Sol Bloom!!!, Americans share this fabu dance that they have rescued with the rest of the world, hooray."

This is why I'd love to see more accurate information out there. Pages and pages of google links say exactly this (more or less). So much so that I even begin to doubt my own knowledge.

One of the chief difficulties is that dance was not, and mostly still is not, considered an "art" to the extent that poetry and music are, in Arabic culture. Singing is, because it's got words (I gather poetry is the number one top of the pops art), but dancing is just something you do for fun, and professional dancers are just fun entertainers. I could be overextrapolating here, but I kind of get the impression that for a long time, dancing in Arab cultures was a bit like beer drinking is in mine. Obviously it will occur at any celebratory gathering, obviously most people like it and enjoy doing it, some people are incredibly talented at drinking beer and can make their own feats of drinking exciting and amusing for others, but those people are often a bit embarrassing as well so you'd rather hope it was someone *else's* husband/boyfriend/brother/son - and in any case, it's not something you take seriously or write about in history books.

I like your beer analogy. Tonight I noted an odd double standard; it was my dad's birthday party and we got on the subject of what I do for a living. I was explaining how some people view the dance as risque, and my dad said 'yeah, I watched her and her dance partner perform and these guys were sitting next to me making all these comments about them wearing less clothes, and I was thinking I'm going to punch you...' Then he suddenly started talking about how hot my dance partner was, blah blah, and saying EXACTLY the same stuff he wanted to punch the guys about (because it was me, and I'm his kid). I told him you're doing the same exact thing!! Funny how that works.

Hi, I'm asim, and it seems I got paged. :)

I'm doing ongoing research in this area:

Raqs in the Middle Ages and Rennisance - Apostate

Although I'm not quite as ready to cheerlead the term "raqs" as I was then, I must confess. To sum up: There is viable evidence for dances like modern "belly dance" in that time period, and you can, at least, do some good digging into the lives of Professional dancers.

Questions are welcome, as are critiques. If you'd like more info, I have some newer stuff, and am (slowly!) working on a revamp of the whole paper. Please feel free to ask!

Originally Posted by dunyah

There was a very interesting period of time in the 1200-1500 period in Spain (Al Andalus) when the Moors were in power and there was a marvelous blending of Islamic, Christian, and Jewish culture. Maybe you could do some research on that? There is wonderful music that has survived from that period. Check out "Historical Perspectives on Andalusian Music" by Elena Villa, on my website: Articles by Elena Villa for more information and even a bibliography.

Ah, that train of thought is similar to what I was thinking of, to consider the music, including the tunes from the late Al Andalus period. Lamma Bada comes to mind, immediately. I feel that line of research is important to bellydance, because the music is a necessary part of our dance form.

Thanks for the link, that sounds very interesting!

Habiba has also written some related articles, not sure whether her research goes that far back, though: The Habiba Studio- Articles by Habiba

There are accounts from the Crusades in the 13th century that dancing girls entertained both sides in th Holy land. What form it took of course we have no more idea than of how the dancers of Ancient Egypt and Rome. But there are resources for those times you can read and look at. A girl here in England is doing very thorough research on early dances that we publish in our mag. But of course,we can only suppose. There are lovely early paintings of Persian dancers to give clues of images.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Awww! I R an authority!

BD as we know it didn't exist then, no, but there was certainly dancing and it probably looked a bit similar. The man to track down is Asim - his blog is Apostate

He is into SCA and has done a lot of research into the dances of those older time periods. He'll have resources I am sure.

Anthony Shay has also written a fair bit of stuff on historical Persian dance, but I don't know if it goes back quite that far.

YES! glad you posted, he knows it all. And MAN he can ZILL

Originally Posted by asim1

Hi, I'm asim, and it seems I got paged. :)

I'm doing ongoing research in this area:

Raqs in the Middle Ages and Rennisance - Apostate

Although I'm not quite as ready to cheerlead the term "raqs" as I was then, I must confess. To sum up: There is viable evidence for dances like modern "belly dance" in that time period, and you can, at least, do some good digging into the lives of Professional dancers.

Questions are welcome, as are critiques. If you'd like more info, I have some newer stuff, and am (slowly!) working on a revamp of the whole paper. Please feel free to ask!

AHHH there you are, HEY!!!!!..l;,

Wow, thanks so much everyone! Feel free to keep adding info. What an intersting thread! I especially appreciated Asim's and Zumarrad's input. I think I will do the paper on Middle Eastern Dance instead of just bellydance. It'll be a fun one to write.

So Asim, you feel that the dances from that time period are the same or similar? I find that interesting, and a new thought to me. I have been under the impression that things didn't go as far back as that.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

So Asim, you feel that the dances from that time period are the same or similar? I find that interesting, and a new thought to me. I have been under the impression that things didn't go as far back as that.

There's some data, in terms of written descriptions, to support that assertion, at least for Ottoman Dance. The two examples that are strongest, in my opinion, are the 15th Century Sufi doc on Turkish Dance styles, and the Postel dancer description, both in Metin And's PICTORIAL HISTORY OF TURKISH DANCING. The descriptions are not "belly dance", obviously, but there's something of the movement that's pretty bloody close, in my opinion, in what I'm reading.
Now, there's a lot of caveats in that -- I'm more cautions now than I was when I wrote that document, part of the reason I'm re-writing it. And there's a lot of dance information that's still "stuck" out there. But I also feel like there is a history for our art form that is reflected in the European Middle Ages and Renn era, and that it's researchable like any other piece of ethnography.

Hi Asim,

I'd love it if that were the case! I'm a historian and anthropologist, and I have been having a very hard time with the prior-to-raqs-baladi stuff. So you are saying these are precursors to the modern dance, I assume?

What is your take on the fertility/goddess/oldest dance in the world idea?

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Awww! I R an authority!

*cheers zum for obtaining official bhuz authority status*

(May be that I've been watching too much spaceballs but I couldn't help this quote popping in to my brain...)

"Oh ****, there goes the planet"

..l;,..l;,..l;,

What is your take on the fertility/goddess/oldest dance in the world idea?

*jumps in*

The anthropologists on this board can probably explain this in better detail than I can, but my understanding is that this idea pretty much boils down to Curt Sachs - who gets referenced in many books and articles about BD that go back to this "oldest dance" idea. I am a bit vague on his research and the problems with it (other than that he relied on a lot of hearsay and secondary sources for his "world history of the dance"), but his view was essentially that dance evolves through cultural interconnection, except in places where people remain "primitive", I guess. And that they're all the same. BD is supposedly based on "fertility dances" and the rationale for considering it so old is that "primitive" peoples do fertility dances using their hips - eg people in the Pacific, or people in parts of Africa - ergo BD must be the same dance. I think he's part of the "dissemination" school of thought that doesn't allow for people being independently creative and just coming up with things themselves. That's why his mode of thinking feeds into the theories that ancient Egyptians travelled the world and settled in Polynesia, etc.

But Sachs' research is, quite apart from anything else, extremely old. He was writing in the 30s and apparently comes from a radically different ethnographic school than US researchers of the same period, which nonetheless hasn't prevented his work being squished alongside theirs. He was a musicologist, not a dance specialist, and as I wrote above, didn't actually do field research himself for everything in his book.

I got that impression as well, that it originates from Curt Sachs. Otherwise I see a lot of people just saying things they generally seem to like.

Where is our modern, world-travelling bellydancing archaeologist?

I second, third, etcetera all warnings about misinformation and wishful thinking out there. I think "fakelore" is a great area of study, as is the kind of Orientalist fantasizing that went into it. To take that tack, consider looking at Sol Bloom (always gotta be a groys Yiddische knacker behind these big vaudeville stories, huh?), because...didn't he invent the term "bellydance"? "Ouled Nail and Ghawazee" wouldn't have attracted the crowds at the fair. (Um, there were Ouled Nail, there, right?) Also on the fantasy end, check out Flaubert's tale of hiring Kuchuk Hanum to dance for him while traveling in Egypt as a young man. I think most bellydancers today would be well familiar with his presumptions, the dancer being something of an empty vessel for his desires. He did like the ladies of the evening, that guy. Sort of the Elliot Spitzer of the literary set.

For real historical study, Artemis Mourat is a noted expert in Turkish dance - and I think it's important to expand beyond the Arab world to study our dance history. And though there's a ban on images of human beings in some Muslim cultures, don't neglect the beautiful Persian and Ottoman miniature paintings, many of which depict dancers. And yeah, there are lots of great people to talk to about Arabic dance history. Also - it may help to look into the history and dances of what's now known as the Silk Road.

There is a very good collection of essays, published recently, called "Belly Dance: Orientalism, Transnationalism, and Harem Fantasy", edited by Anthony Shay and Barbara Sellers-Young. It's excellent for the most part, and contains a lot of great information. My only gripes about it aren't informational, they're technical: it needs some copy-editing, and the overall design isn't very good. Typographic complaints notwithstanding, it is very good.

All that goddess/fertility dance stuff makes me faintly queasy. It's such wishful thinking. There have been dancing boys and dancing girls for all of time, because people like to dance and like to watch dance, and in some times and places like to pay dancers for sex. Learning what you can about them, in any time or place, might help you.

- Leela

didn't he invent the term "bellydance"?

No, he didn't. He simply pointed out the translation of "danse du ventre" which was invented by some French people, and all the USers went "oooh salacious!!!"

Word to everything you said about Shay and Sellers-Young's book. It's a shame it looks ****ty because it is an *excellent* resource.

Ha, I wonder who invented hoochie-cooch? Yeah, that book is really terrific. I just wish the cover were well designed, and that typos and grammatical errors had been caught. Could not put it down, though. The writing is very good.

- Leela