Thread: confused help....

Ok this has been on my mind for some time and i just cant seam to shake it...........
Ok we are all belly dance artists, Dance artists......So with that said i have found over the last year that there is a general concensus that we are supposed to dance Raks in a certian way, turkish in a certian way and american in a certian way, but we are artists, so why is it that I have to dance like every one else? I.E. If I was a painter, picasso, Michael angelo, davinci etc would get pissed if i copied their paintings, Do you get what im trying to say. I understand that there is raks, but what if I dont want to dance like that and be creative, is there any room,tolerance or even accepting of cutting edge cabaret? and if yes, it is only the stars that get the right to dance the way they want? I am an artist right, so what if I dont want to go down on a certian beat and up on another? And why is there a right and a wrong? I mean paint is paint, and a shimmy is a shimmy so what does it really matter? I would like to be a BELLY DANCER with influence from Raks, Dance Oriental etc......I am american, i dont claim to be anything else, so why must we conform? I just feel like If we dont dance a certian way, we are considered black sheep, or "bad" any thoughts.......does any one else feel this way? or am i just nuts?..c::..c::..c::..c::..c::

Annwyn, thats what fusion is. But the conscensus is also that before yoiu fuse or create new style, you understand the vocabularies you are using.

The painters you mentioned spent years and years copying their masters before they developed their own individual works. They learned the qualities of light, color, space, perspective; how to mix colors, how to chose the fabrics for the canvases; made their own glues and gessos, built their own stretchers, chose the individual hairs to make their own brushes. So when they began to add their own selves to their works they did it with the bones they had learned from others.

Yes, we can put on the music and dance it any way we like. YouTube is full of belly bunnies doing just that. What separates a bedroom YouTube star from an innovative dancer has to be more than the lack of a costume.

Now look at from a different angle. Is doing what the music calls for or what is culturally appropriate in a folkdance-based style copying? If you are dancing to an earthy, rooted, heavy downbeat your body and your audience's inate sense leads you to a down movement. You can chose to move upward for a surprise factor, but if you do it on every downbeat it will be discordant. Same with throwing a 3/4 shimmy to a light tremolo. If being discordant is what you want, be prepared to make people uncomfortable. That is what edginess is. But is you make someone uncomfortable, you need to pull them back too.

Rather than overanalyzing whether all dancers "overthere" always start to the left instead of the right or only accent down on the first beat, we should put our efforts to becoming so familiar with the music that we have NOT grown up with that we can at least make some semblance of integrating into our souls enough so that whatever movements we make are from US, from within, organic and not contrived.

Does this make sense to you or not?

Souzan

Originally Posted by Souzan

we can at least make some semblance of integrating into our souls enough so that whatever movements we make are from US, from within, organic and not contrived.

that's purty. :)

I think I get it.....let me tell it back to you tell me if im on the right track here.......after studing the masters only then can i begin to develope my own style......but being a american it is hard to understand exactaly where, how, what raks,oriental is so start with the music and start disecting it.........learn, listen etc......Ok so now how, where, what is the best place to start for music.....I dont have a good music foundation, i used to play the piano as a kid and hated it, that is all i have, i do have some cds with rythems and i do listen to them i can recognise a cift, and the karsilama, think i get the karsilama, and i really really enjoy egyptian oriental still dont know when to travel, when to shimmy and when to go up not down....Still stuck on oki for at least 1 year, then i can get a good teacher (i hope) I have already scoped out all the possible duty stations and master teachers there......So in the mean time.....?

I think you develop your own style as you study the masters. But what you are talking about is when Bad Fusion Happens. A dancer gets to that stage of frustration and says, "I'm an ARTIST! I don't need all these rules!"

Annwyn, you don't need to worry that you will look like everyone else--you won't because everyone hears the music differently and won't interpret the music the same way. I think you will really blossom when you come back to the US and can get some great teaching to help you along and encourage you.

Part I Annwyn, I think you are getting it. The reason I used the analogy of master artists is that literally, that is how painters have mastered their art. Great draftsman (and women), printmakers, painters, sculptors spend years and years copying the great work of others to understand. The classic masters you mention all went through lengthy apprentice and journeyman stages before they ever attempted anything on their own.

This is what I would do if I were you. Spend the time you have before you move on to another duty station doing quiet background work. Learn what instruments are used in middle eastern music. What do they sound like? How are they played? Are they folkloric or are they orchestral instruments? Can you identify them when you hear them in a musical piece? If you listen to a piece where the predominant melodic instrument is oud how does that sound compared to a piece where the predominant melodic instrument is a stick fiddle (also a stringed instrument)? How does the violin sound different from both of them? Or the kanoon, another instrument with strings? What about the saxophone, the trumpet, flutes? The various drums? I play the bendir, which is a Moroccan frame drum with snares at the back of the frame. It has a distinct buzzing sound. I also play the muzhair, an Egyptian frame drum that has cymbals on the rim. It has a deep voice with a rich resonating ring from the cymbals--very different sound from the riq or tampourine sound even though they look like big and little brother.

go to part II

Part II

What about the variations of instruments that you find in Turkish music, Khaleegi, Persian, etc.

Two really good dvds I can suggest: Rhythms of Oriental Dance by Nesma (dancer) and Khemis Henkish (musician)--you can get yourself an inexpensive drum and learn a little drumming, includes CDs and DVDs, but Khemis and Nesma talk so much about dance and culture as well. It is in Arabic with subtitles in many languages. Excellent production quality. Well designed program intended to educate. Instructional DVD

The other would be The Nighclub Performance: Dancing to Live Arabic Music. Two disk dvd set. The first is on the instruments, where they are from, what they sound like, how they are used. Yasmina gives instruction on dancing to the various instruments and on how to work with musicians. Even if you are using recorded music it gives you lots and lots of info and practice. Second disk is full of various types of shows with various types of music and instruments. Here is a link to the page where you will find it: Arabesque: Boutique - CDs & DVDs

Here is a link to an article that Hossam Ramzy wrote about dancing with the music. Keep in mind that the guy is pretty pompous but it is an excellent article and makes sense: Hossam Ramzy - Articles

I would also suggest Dr. Mo Geddawi dvds that Little Egypt carries. He talks about life, he talks about the music, he talks about the dance, he has a wonderful feel for the music and he is a master teacher. And because he is used to working with Western dancers, he explains it not just follow the bouncing butt! Anything from Shareen el Safy--they are gems. She does the same thing--talks and dances. Demonstrates, explains, encourages. Shareen el Safy. Hard to find Dr. Mo or Shareen videos used. But worth every penny buying them new. My favorite Dr. Mo is his new modern baladi class from the recent Fifi/Dr. Mo workshops in Texas. Little Egypt Home Page. Another might be Hadia's original video series.

Although I do have local teachers, I figured out a couple of years ago that I am essentially responsible for my own dance education. I do have the opportunity to go to several workshops each year, but have learned so much from fellow Bhuzzers and instructional dvds. The only reason I have these suggestions for you is that I have been on this quest myself as a dancer and as a musician.

Souzan

This is just fantastic advice and very intriguing. Thank you Souzan.

Yes, thank you so much I am really retarded when it comes to the where and how, so givimg me these links is wonderful, We get paid on the 15th I will be purchacing all of these. Thank you so much I really really appreciate it..........

Originally Posted by annwyn

Yes, thank you so much I am really retarded when it comes to the where and how, so givimg me these links is wonderful, We get paid on the 15th I will be purchacing all of these. Thank you so much I really really appreciate it..........

One other thing I can suggest that is free: the three Taktaba podcasts on ITunes. You can download them and watch them over and over again. On repetition, timing and phrasing in oriental dance. Excellent content with workalong segments.

Souzan

I think there is room for personal creativity within the cultural parameters that define the dance.

Originally Posted by annwyn

Ok this has been on my mind for some time and i just cant seam to shake it...........
Ok we are all belly dance artists, Dance artists......So with that said i have found over the last year that there is a general concensus that we are supposed to dance Raks in a certian way, turkish in a certian way and american in a certian way, but we are artists, so why is it that I have to dance like every one else?

This may or may not help you Annwyn, but I look at raqs primarily as culture rather than art, when I dance I am not creating art but exploring dance as a cultural expression. I make a mental divide between the two and enjoy being able to consciously choose to explore one or the other or both.

With the music, the best advice I ever got was that of immersion. Make the music part of your life and you'll really start to live it and feel it in your bones.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

This may or may not help you Annwyn, but I look at raqs primarily as culture rather than art, when I dance I am not creating art but exploring dance as a cultural expression. I make a mental divide between the two and enjoy being able to consciously choose to explore one or the other or both.

With the music, the best advice I ever got was that of immersion. Make the music part of your life and you'll really start to live it and feel it in your bones.

Nanda,
WELL said!!!!!

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Nanda,
WELL said!!!!!

*bows*

I'l be here all week folks

Ah... The "listen", "listen", "listen to the music" component of learning this dance form. ..g.: Immersion (for becoming one with the music) is good.

Originally Posted by Souzan

Two really good dvds I can suggest: Rhythms of Oriental Dance by Nesma (dancer) and Khemis Henkish (musician)--you can get yourself an inexpensive drum and learn a little drumming, includes CDs and DVDs, but Khemis and Nesma talk so much about dance and culture as well. It is in Arabic with subtitles in many languages. Excellent production quality. Well designed program intended to educate. Instructional DVD

Yay! Thanks for this link Souzan... I've been looking for this dvd everywhere!

Originally Posted by TediThomas

Ah... The "listen", "listen", "listen to the music" component of learning this dance form. ..g.: Immersion (for becoming one with the music) is good.

You know, it was the silliest thought that really got me listening All the time.

I figured that Egyptian dancers danced so naturally to the music because they grew up listening to it right? So if I wanted to be even half as good them I better play catch up. Like real fast. All those hours upon hours of listening and I accidently learnt Alot about the music.

And this was before I went to Egypt and saw how pervasive music is in the everyday life of Egyptians... it's everywhere all the time (and that there is no way to play catch up to that ;-). Even the city has its own rhythmic heartbeat punctuated by the calls to prayer.

..cr.: OMG I miss Cairo.

Originally Posted by annwyn

I think I get it.....let me tell it back to you tell me if im on the right track here.......after studing the masters only then can i begin to develope my own style......but being a american it is hard to understand exactaly where, how, what raks,oriental is so start with the music and start disecting it.........learn, listen etc......Ok so now how, where, what is the best place to start for music.....I dont have a good music foundation, i used to play the piano as a kid and hated it, that is all i have, i do have some cds with rythems and i do listen to them i can recognise a cift, and the karsilama, think i get the karsilama, and i really really enjoy egyptian oriental still dont know when to travel, when to shimmy and when to go up not down....Still stuck on oki for at least 1 year, then i can get a good teacher (i hope) I have already scoped out all the possible duty stations and master teachers there......So in the mean time.....?

The problem is you cannot just listen to the music without a cultural context and work out what to do with it because it isn't your culture - that is you haven't grown up listening to it on the radio, dancing to it a parties, knowing what the lyrics mean - not just literally but how they fit within the culture (for example, "Ya Bouy" translates to "Hey, old man" - but it's a joke as the guy is actaully addressing a young woman). Knowing how the rhythms feel with your body is helpful - but only a small part of it.

I'd interpret "studying masters" as at least watching Middle Eastern dancers performing - plenty of DVDs available these days and talking to native speakers about the music etc. Once you have the opportunity also get some classes with Middle Eastern dance teachers. Watch when they start, how they use their arms (many Westerners are far too busy), how they accent he music, how they switch between rhythm and lyrical interpretation, the addition of gestures relating to the lyrics, etc.

Good luck.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

This may or may not help you Annwyn, but I look at raqs primarily as culture rather than art, when I dance I am not creating art but exploring dance as a cultural expression. I make a mental divide between the two and enjoy being able to consciously choose to explore one or the other or both.

With the music, the best advice I ever got was that of immersion. Make the music part of your life and you'll really start to live it and feel it in your bones.

Really well put Amanda!

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

This may or may not help you Annwyn, but I look at raqs primarily as culture rather than art, when I dance I am not creating art but exploring dance as a cultural expression. I make a mental divide between the two and enjoy being able to consciously choose to explore one or the other or both.

With the music, the best advice I ever got was that of immersion. Make the music part of your life and you'll really start to live it and feel it in your bones.

Actually it does help......

So what do you do(with the music) play it 24/7? I play it in the car and in the house mmmmhhh about an hour or 2 a day, and before I dance i play the music about 100 times to memorise the music, and it is in the alarm clock..... More?

I can only talk for me personally. I tried to keep my listening mostly separate from the music I was working on... because when I was listening to my working music, my brain was too busy thinking through it and breaking it down, but with the immersion I wanted something a little more subtle that I could gradually soak up.

So a couple of cd's in rotation in the car that were changed every couple of weeks... Once I had the 50 minute enta omri on there and every time I jumped in the car I got to listen to different sections of it. Cd's in my walkman during work (my work is pretty labour intensive but brainless) and during exercise... obviously pre my first ipod mini and compressed music, listening is a bit easier now.

At home I would have music on in the back ground or play videos while doing housework and cooking etc... but WARNING: MAY RESULT IN SPONTANEOUS KITCHEN BALADI. Added advantage of learning more authentic ways of expression through imitation.

The idea is that it becomes a natural part of your life tapestry, not something you have to study but something woven through all the different aspects of your everyday living. You really gotta love the music though.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

Even the city has its own rhythmic heartbeat punctuated by the calls to prayer.

anybody know of any footage of this?? I MUST get to Egypt!!

BINGO! Once you've been doing the immersion (including using it for background household chores) you will find that little elements of the dance creep into your everyday life. Listening to music while washing dishes and doing any number of in-place hip work in response is natural. Setting up for a party at another person's house one time I was left to my own devises for setting out all the food and service. When I successfully found the serving utensils I proceeded to do a "happy finding the spoons" dance (music *was* actually playing). The students of mine that were helping with the set up wanted to know the cultural background of the dance I was doing. ..l;,

After a decent amount of immersion you will find that the music won't leave you alone, as in there will be no music playing in real life, but the song that is suddenly and pervasively in your head just won't leave your head. Standing at the photocopier you find yourself doing hip work and accents to the cadence of the copier. Walking down the hallway you find that you've been doing shoulder or arm/hand movements (usually becoming aware of doing so when you get strange looks). One of my favorite professors in my department always makes me smile when he tells me that I must be in my "happy music place" upon occasion (obviously clued by my body language).

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

At home I would have music on in the back ground or play videos while doing housework and cooking etc... but WARNING: MAY RESULT IN SPONTANEOUS KITCHEN BALADI. Added advantage of learning more authentic ways of expression through imitation.

The idea is that it becomes a natural part of your life tapestry, not something you have to study but something woven through all the different aspects of your everyday living. You really gotta love the music though.

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

Even the city has its own rhythmic heartbeat punctuated by the calls to prayer.

..cr.: OMG I miss Cairo.

Completely OT, forgive me. But this quote made me remember a Cairo soundscape moment...

When I was in Cairo about 6 years ago I was sharing a flat (apartment) with three other women for a month - we were all studying Arabic. The flat was surrounded by three or four different mosques - 4am was quite an interesting time! It was late August, sometime in the afternoon, and really sweltering, so all the shutters were open. Two desk fans on different tables were on - the kind that rotate one way then the other. Everyone was out, but me, sitting in the living room trying to do my homework. However, I was more interested in the fact that the hum from the fans went in and out of sync as they rotated towards and away from me. It was peaceful, slightly hypnotic, lulled me into a drowsy trance. Then the afternoon call to prayer began, first in one mosque, then another, then the next. All sung in different keys and different voices but somehow not discordant, slightly out of sync at first, then the calls coming together, then separating again, coming together, parting, then coming to an end. All the time the beat of the fans weaving in and out of the voices, behind that the beeping and roaring of Mohandiseen traffic. Magical.

all i have to say is.. picasso was trained in classical art from a very young age and was VERY talented. if you look at his earlier works you will see that he did paint the "way he was supposed to " ... he had amazing technique.

therefore i beleive theres a huge difference between mastering the way you are supposed to and then being creative with it, vs ... being "Creative" because you havent mastered the technique.

oops i should have read the thread before posting..i didnt realise others gave a similar responce :P

Originally Posted by annwyn

I think I get it.....let me tell it back to you tell me if im on the right track here.......after studing the masters only then can i begin to develope my own style......but being a american it is hard to understand exactaly where, how, what raks,oriental is so start with the music and start disecting it.........learn, listen etc......Ok so now how, where, what is the best place to start for music.....I dont have a good music foundation, i used to play the piano as a kid and hated it, that is all i have, i do have some cds with rythems and i do listen to them i can recognise a cift, and the karsilama, think i get the karsilama, and i really really enjoy egyptian oriental still dont know when to travel, when to shimmy and when to go up not down....Still stuck on oki for at least 1 year, then i can get a good teacher (i hope) I have already scoped out all the possible duty stations and master teachers there......So in the mean time.....?

One piece of advice that was given to me years ago was to listen ONLY to middle eastern music, all types. Make yourself listen to music that may not appeal to you right away.

For your last section - when to travel, shimmy, up & down. For the most part, people say that you "feel" it and I think I do now. But I have to give credit that I learned it somewhere. I watched a lot of performances and I absorbed the fact that dancers I liked to watch would shimmy with certain types of music, and travel on other parts of the music. Sometimes I specifically watch and take notes for this type of thing to try to get my conscious brain to absorb it faster. String together a bunch of youtube videos in one style and make note of what's happening when people are shimmying, what's happening when they are traveling, what makes them stop and pause.

Originally Posted by aasiyah

all i have to say is.. picasso was trained in classical art from a very young age and was VERY talented. if you look at his earlier works you will see that he did paint the "way he was supposed to " ... he had amazing technique.

therefore i beleive theres a huge difference between mastering the way you are supposed to and then being creative with it, vs ... being "Creative" because you havent mastered the technique.

Also don't forget that what Picasso did may have been painting, but it was a whole different style from what came before.

Just as fusion (innovation) is still dancing but may not Bellydance!!

Originally Posted by jencUK

Also don't forget that what Picasso did may have been painting, but it was a whole different style from what came before.

Just as fusion (innovation) is still dancing but may not Bellydance!!

Pablo Picasso had a long and productive creative life and he didn't have one particular style as it evolved over time. We probably know him best as a cubist but he was an impressionist and an expressionist before he began experimenting with cubism. And is later works changed even more. But before he was any of these things he started with classical training. Picasso also did not work in a vacuum. He was part of a group of artisis, writers, sculptors, poets, potters, philosophers who exchanged ideas, copied each other works, collaborated, got in arguments, traded mistresses with each other, took trips to the beach, pooled their beer money, shared studio space and models, etc. And if there had been an internet back then, they probably would have all had blogs to share ideas.

Souzan

Originally Posted by TediThomas

Ah... The "listen", "listen", "listen to the music" component of learning this dance form. ..g.: Immersion (for becoming one with the music) is good.

Best piece of advise I ever got was from Carolena Nericcio - buy an Ipod, fill it with every piece of ME music you can get your hands on and nothing else, put it on shuffle and listen to it non-stop every day.