Thread: Our Dance and its History

Hi all,

I've been thinking a lot of the rubbish information out online (and elsewhere). I propose to start a website run by qualified historians on the history of the dance. I know there are a few on here (I am one, just in a different field, but as most of my studies to date have been on Orientalism I'd like to give it a shot).

Who would like to participate in a definitive, 'real bellydance history' (and culture) site? What problems do you see arising from it? I'm thinking of a place we can send students that is full of good information. What do you all think? Possible? Foolish?

I felt it would be better than the lah-te-dah stuff anyway, something a little more solid if possible.

I see huge potential for bickering and argument.

I think it would be fantastic...And i also think it should lead to a book as well...and if anyone disagrees with the viewpoints/ facts of the publication....well...they can publish their views in the same manner...much like what's going on with the whole field of ancient Celtic folklore and mythology...w.:

Originally Posted by taobellydancer

if anyone disagrees with the viewpoints/ facts of the publication....well...they can publish their views in the same manner...

Of course people will disagree -- esp w/ claims of being "definitive" and "real" belly dance history. But it's more fun to be a critic than an author

There could be an entire series of books: "The Definitive Real Belly Dance History According to ________". I'll start the potential author list: BreaMorgiane, Morocco, Shira, Suhaila, Jodette, Sausan, etc. . .

Or, better yet, a cage match a la Thunderdome or WWE. In Las Vegas. "Miles Copeland Presents The Definitive, Real History of Belly Dance!"

PS: What are the identifying characteristics of a "qualified historian"?

PPS: I think you should do whatever you want. Take a stab at it and see where it goes.

Originally Posted by bananarchy

There could be an entire series of books: "The Definitive Real Belly Dance History According to ________". I'll start the potential author list: BreaMorgiane, Morocco, Shira, Suhaila, Jodette, Sausan, etc. . .

Yeah, unfortunately this is what I see happening too - who's to determine who's "qualified" enough to give the "real" facts?

I think one of your problems will be getting first hand sources that are useful - especially anything before 1900s.

Denise Enan told the very sad story of her husband, who did a lot of filming for Firqa Kawmiyya, going back to Cairo in 1991 to get copies of some of the folk film he took in the 1960s only to find it was all missing. Not sure if the Reda archive still exists, but if we cannot maintain a record for 30 years, what hope for 300? ,f::

The other problem is that people like their fantasies. They often have emotional or financial investment in them. If you aren't careful, you'll just get slagged off as "in her opinion", "people disagree" etc - even with good, documented evidence.

As a degree student who is hoping to focus their disertation on Orientalism I would love to have access to belly dance material that was more academic, and focused on areas of ethnology/cultural studies/anthropolgy even just a list of academics, books and articles would be nice. However I feel this would be far from an easy task and rather demanding time wise considering the diversity and range of middle eastern dance culture and styles eg. egyptian, turkish etc. although I applaud and would be very supportive of such a site.
Issues of differing theories is not to much of a problem I'm used to historography and its many debates. ,r:;


Anousheh

I would think it's fair to say that there is no such thing as "the" "definitive" history of anything.

Anousheh, first stop is Shay and Sellers-Young's Belly Dance: Orientalism, Transnationalism and Harem Fantasy, which has some excellent articles to start with and will give you some writers to pursue. It has its faults, not least of which is appalling typos, but is an excellent collection and certainly the best (only) one out there at present that I know of.

Australian Virginia-Keft Kennedy did her PhD on belly dance and is preparing it for publication as a book - by the time you get to your diss it *might* be out, as I think it is supposed to be out next year. Thesis title is Representing the Belly Dancing Body: Feminism, Orientalism, and the Grotesque. You can't get the thesis right now (or you couldn't last year) because of the publication issues but if you track Virginia down she might be able to give you a better idea of what's up with it. She has also written a number of good academic articles. Amara of LA (Laura Osweiler) has also got some interesting papers on her website, which, while they could do with a good proofing, make really interesting use of Butler and draw on Deleuze and Guattari, which on the one hand pisses me off because *I saw them first* (except for how I didn't), but on the other hand, I'm obviously on the right track.

I would also support the site, btw.

As much as I'd like to see this happening, here are the problems I see:

-Deciding who is a qualified historian.
-Not really a problem, but the writing should clearly state the author's involvement/possible bias. For instance, if Suhaila writes about her mother's contributions, the writing needs to make everyone aware that a daughter is writing about her mother.
-Deciding on the topics and representation. Are you planning on covering every niche style? When I mention representation, let's say you have 20 people wanting to cover Raqs Math (made up) and only one person wants to write about Raqs Sharqi. It makes Raqs Math look more important, IMO, to our history even if only 20 people dance that style.
-Fact checking. I'm not sure how easily that can be done.
-Getting someone to edit it
-Finding people who have enough time/money/energy to work on it

I would definitely be willing to help, even if it's just editing and asking questions.

Thank you zumarrad it is greatly appreciated and helpful I have noted the people you mentioned and will check them out I've also ordered the Shay and Sellers from amazon and look forward to reading it. :Ahappy:

I'd think that it would be desirable to have a list of downloadable (maybe my view here is very much spoiled by being a computer scientist - it's common to make all papers available as pdf), more academically focussed writing related to bellydance. The more access to peer-reviewed, high-quality papers for everybody, the more everybody will know. And, those who want to dig deeper can always check out the sources cited in those papers.

It's funny - I am just looking into several community-authoring sites (related to math), and coming up with a good design for that is hard, there are a lot of places that are not so fab. I am very much impressed by MERLOT - Multimedia Educational Resource for Learning and Online Teaching.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Hi all,

I've been thinking a lot of the rubbish information out online (and elsewhere). I propose to start a website run by qualified historians on the history of the dance. I know there are a few on here (I am one, just in a different field, but as most of my studies to date have been on Orientalism I'd like to give it a shot).

Who would like to participate in a definitive, 'real bellydance history' (and culture) site? What problems do you see arising from it? I'm thinking of a place we can send students that is full of good information. What do you all think? Possible? Foolish?

I felt it would be better than the lah-te-dah stuff anyway, something a little more solid if possible.

Feel free to take a look at the reference list I have in here: http://www.mahsati-janan.com/Article...ceOverview.pdf

It isn't exhaustive or fully comprehensive, but does list a few interesting ones. Interesting project :)

Ah, a lovely list of references. Next question - can one get Arabesque through ILL with access to a major university's library?

Wasn't Dani working on a Belly dance Wiki at one time?

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Wasn't Dani working on a Belly dance Wiki at one time?

Bellydance-o-Pedia wiki - Terms and facts about bellydance, a.k...

Hi all,

Yes, I know there would be problems, but I was just thinking of a way to combat the misinformation out there.

I am thinking of a more academically-focused site than we usually encounter on searches. And it's true that it's hard when 20 other people (and pretty much everything you can find right away on google) is full of fantasy. The other issue is that people do love their stories.

It was just a thought; I'd like to see something that's a better resource to guide students to than some of the things I've been seeing.

I think it's going to be difficult, but I think it's worthwhile.

How academically focused are you thinking of making it? Some academically focused articles are dry and may prevent people from reading.

I think a site like Shira's, with its style of writing, would work out the best

Hi indigo,

Well, as an academic myself, my biggest beef with the teaching of history is how dry it can be. I'd like to do something that's non-dry academic. Oddly, when I've read Scottish historical resources that originate in Scotland, they're a lot more fun. I wonder why that would be?

As a former medievalist (and still one at heart -academically, everything for me stopped at about 1530) I'd like to be able to access more information about the earlier side of things.

From Bhuz, I do have some idea of where to go, to read up on post-Napoleonic Orientalism and modern theories but not so much the earlier stuff which I know exists. For, example the cross-pollination between Arabic poetry and the courtly love lyric. In addition, there's some really fantastic material from medieval travellers on women in the middle east.

I'll add that this was never my area of specialism, but I used to bump up against it from time to time which is why I'm aware of it. I was, at one point, before funding ran out, researching the fifteenth-century pilgrimage to Jerusalem as sex tourism.

Wow khadiya, this is very interesting! Someone asked what made a 'qualified historian'. I'd have to say for the most part (for me) it's someone who's gone to school for history. I know that's not the perfect answer but it is a starting point.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Hi indigo,

Well, as an academic myself, my biggest beef with the teaching of history is how dry it can be. I'd like to do something that's non-dry academic. Oddly, when I've read Scottish historical resources that originate in Scotland, they're a lot more fun. I wonder why that would be?

That sounds much better and something I'd love to help write or edit or read. I read a bunch of astrophysics papers this week, and I forgot how unapproachable some topics can be. I remember with histories and anthro papers that the lexicon for them can difficult for the average, non-invested person.

Well, as an academic myself, my biggest beef with the teaching of history is how dry it can be. I'd like to do something that's non-dry academic. Oddly, when I've read Scottish historical resources that originate in Scotland, they're a lot more fun. I wonder why that would be?

my motto was always to prevent their attention from wandering with the judicious use of fun pictures. Its a good memory trick and keeps people on side very successfully.

Well, I think it would be fun to start a tentative site. Are you in?

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Well, I think it would be fun to start a tentative site. Are you in?

I'd be willing to do my part :) How do you determine qualifications? Do we submit our CV?

It could be fun, I'm not sure I've got the right sort of knowledge to be helpful. I'm a medieval English specialist and and an iconographer. I now work as a picture researcher/typesetter for a company that publishes 'light' history books but I've no formal history training.

I'd like us to decide as a group who would qualify. And how. I don't want it to just be me, that is.

I want to help, but I don't know if I qualify. I'm a physics MS student, but I went to a liberal arts college and have a minor in theatre.

Would you want to do it application style? Have people note their backgrounds, their beliefs on what a good paper is, etc. I'd also ask about time commitment, since you may have the genius historian apply but be someone who has no time to really help

That's true too. Hmmmm. I think what I'd like to start out doing is organize a small committee to decide, but even how to do that I'm a bit confused about. I'd like it to be not just in one person's hands.

I can start the site as a part of my current website and post the submissions there. I'll talk to my webmaster (stetzlaff of bhuz, actually, she's wonderful and you should use her!)

Something I wanted to mention: to me, a qualified person is someone who is aware of general history and does not build off a false base. For instance, as far as we currently know, there were NO matriarchal societies. Matrilineal, yes, matriarchal, no. I believe it is important to try and find out as accurately as we possibly can what the background of this dance is.

One suggestion I might offer is to concentrate on current theories rather to to rehash some of the older research. Whilst no one historian nor scientist can diss past work..s/he has to build upon it. .. as had been said some of the theories advanced a few decades ago have too much invested in them for the authors to revise their ideas so they keep banging away.
Interestng I think to follow new thoughts theories and ideas...you dont have to validate by necessarily agreeing with them but highlight current thnking