Thread: Tribal vs. Egyptian Cab choreography

In this clip I am watching these gypsy style dancers (Rachel Brice among them as I learned on another thread..g.:) and I just love the synchronicity of their movements with each other and the music. It's like this when I watch group tribal clips. Is this as true in Cabaret style? I don't see this in troupe performances with Egyptian Cab dancers. Can someone explain? Maybe I've just not seen any yet.w.:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydMv17AsMJo]YouTube - Ultra Gypsy[/ame] I don't know how to post the actual clip on my post but it's called ultra gypsy.

Ok, there, it showed up. Carry on

In tribal, you effectively learn a number of set combinations (quite a limited number at the start) which everyone strives to do in exactly the same way. These get drilled forever and ever and ever. They also come with a set of special cues, also always performed in exactly the same way, to signal coming changes. Thus, good tribal is actually improvised but can look like a very tight choreography because everyone always already knows the movements and will do them in exactly the same way, as much as they possibly can. There is also a lot of emphasis on group bonding in tribal, which I am guessing is a lot easier if you are all always doing the same movements the same way at all times.

Tribal is about the group, not about the individual response to music. Oriental dance (I don't really like the term cabaret) started out as a solo form, for performance, and is about the individual dancer's interpretation of the music. A group choreography for oriental dancers will usually *not* consist of a limited number of always-identical combinations, but rather a special choreography created in response to that particular piece of music and no other. The body movement is often more complex and not predictable. The dancers have to learn that particular choreography and perform it as a group, rather than engage as a group using sets of combinations they all know.

You can get really tight group oriental performances - Jillina's Sahala dancers, for instance - but they're generally tight in a different way. Tribal is really good at moving bodies around in unison, I have to say.

Wonderfully put, Zumarrad.

BTW, this clip is Tribal style, not gypsy style (although I know it's confusing with the word 'gypsy' in so many tribal groups' names). The word 'gypsy' is generally avoided by authentic gypsy style dancers, because it's considered an ethnic slur. So you'll see 'Roma' 'Rrom' or 'Romani' with (gypsy) in parentheses, usually.


One of the things I dearly love about Oriental dance (what you're calling 'cabaret') is that, as Zum said, it's a solo art form at its heart. Every dancer strives to have her own unique style, her own shimmy, her signature big hip circle. That's one reason why having a different body type -- thinner or heavier, shorter or taller, fuller hips, etc -- is so welcome. In dance forms where uniformity is valued (from ballet to the Radio City Rockettes) dancers all have to have the same body type to get that uniform look. I love that Oriental welcomes all shapes and sizes and lets the uniformity suffer.

I don't mean to say that tribal dance excludes anyone, I don't think it does.

Well that gives clarity. I didn't know about the set combos and special cues of tribal. that makes sense

And now I see what you mean about the Oriental style being more personal. As I watched Oriental dancers perform together as a group at our recent Middle eastern dance fest, I noted that the Oriental styled dancers weren't as in synch when they danced together. So does this mean that as Oriental dancers strive to have a unique personal style, that tribal dancers are encouraged to be more uniform? For example, a shimmy-Everyone's looks a tad different. Does a tribal group learn to shimmy the same way so the group looks more uniform vs. an Oriental dancer?

Sorry about my ignorance on the gypsy and Egyptian Cabaret thing. I did't know.

I'm not a tribal specialist, and hopefully one will come along in a bit - I don't do tribal at all, but I've seen it taught and engaged with tribal dancers a lot - and it's my understanding that while there are different styles of tribal, which will have different ways of generating things, there are very specific, particular ways that each style uses to generate things, yes. So yes, they all learn to do their shimmy the same way. The thing that is unique to tribal is not actually the moves, though, it's the cueing and positioning. Some oriental dancers do some of their movements in exactly the same way, though generally with a slightly different posture.

All of my students learn to shimmy the same way, too. Technically, they *should* all do them exactly the same. But they don't, necessarily (though I would imagine they shimmy more like me than some others would) because every oriental dance teacher in the world didn't learn one specific breakdown of the movement from a physical trainer, get certification from that physical trainer and then go out into the world to teach other people that movement using exactly the same terminology and method. *And*, my more senior students can say "well so and so does it this way" and all I can do is say "yes, she does, but for the purposes of this particular piece I want you to do it this way." But those students can and do use the other technique/posture/variation in their own dancing. It means they are not constantly drilling the One True Hip Thrust, if that makes sense.

I'm increasingly uncomfortable with placing tribal and oriental dance in binary opposition because in a way it's like comparing an apple with an orange, or in fact, comparing a Granny Smith to the entire citrus family. If you do, for example, ATS, there is one way and one way only to do Movement X. There is not one way and one way only to do Movement X in oriental dance that is distinctly different from the ATS way, so you can say "in tribal we do it this way compared to oriental/cabaret who do it that way." Sometimes it's *exactly the same* with a slightly different posture, especially if you learned it from someone with the surname Salimpour. Sometimes there is no movement that is *the same* but there are movements that are *similar* in oriental dance.

Tribal as you know it today was invented in the 1980s. Oriental dance goes back to the 20s and beyond, and nobody was talking about psoas tucks back in those days. And it comes from a social dance which has no set rules whatsoever, only conventions. Tribal is a very specific format, codified and taught very precisely. Oriental dance is not *necessarily,* though in some cases it can be. Remember also that the oriental dancers you saw might not necessarily have been very highly skilled ones, whereas the tribal you've seen on YouTube is not exactly a bunch of beginners.

Another key thing that leads to tribal's quality of unison is that there is always someone leading. People dancing in a group of oriental dancers usually don't have someone in front of them to follow, and even if they did, it wouldn't have the same effect. Every single one of those dancers has to recognise the cue *in the music* - and she might hit it a little early because she knows it's coming, or a little late because she went off into a bit of a dream for a second - because there is no dancer in front leading a *cue for the dancers* which she can put in whenever she feels like it. The cues happen before a movement change happens, so every dancer in a tribal group sees their leader do a certain thing with her arm and knows that in two or four or eight counts' time (depending on what the cue is), they're going to change, and it's going to be... that one! You can sometimes see the followers a tiny fraction behind at the start of a set of movements if you look closely.

To further clarify (or confuse), American Tribal Style (ATS) is group improv, with cueing, as described above.

However, the style has grown many branches from that trunk. There are groups who might call themselves 'tribal' (but not ATS) who use choreography. There are also soloists now who are called Tribal (or Tribal Fusion, since tribal by definition requires a group) who may be either improv or choreographed but certainly aren't cueing a group.

And Zum is right, a highly skilled Oriental troupe should be at least reasonably in sync. It's not quite fair to compare a local student troupe to a nationally renowned group like Ultra Gypsy!

If you want to compare a pro-level oriental troupe to Ultra Gypsy, you'd have to compare the Desert Roses, or Suhaila's troupe, or Jillina's Sahlala, or Lotus Niraja's troupe. I'm sure you could find any of the above on youtube.

I have nothing to add except great thread!

When we are performing a tribal choreography, the principles of tribal improv still apply. That is, there is a leader, and our goal is to be as synchronized with that leader as possible. If that leader makes a mistake in the choreography, she is not wrong. Anyone who doesn't follow her and who instead does the choreographed step is wrong. Our formations are set up so that everyone can usually see the leader. Usually, the leader is the person on the far left, except with certain formations like a chevron with the point at the front, in which case the leader is that front person. When we do turns or do moves facing the back, the leader temporarily becomes the farthest back person, so that we can stay synchronized.

There actually is variation in tribal steps. Our instructor varies them or teaches us different variations all the time. However, as a group, we make the decision to do certain steps certain ways (e.g. two full turns) when we improv, for obvious reasons. When we choreograph, we can vary them more.

I do think, as some have mentioned, that even an Orientale troupe should be quite synchronized. I dance both styles, and I was just saying to one of my Orientale troupe buddies yesterday (we had an afternoon of lunch followed by trying on costumes at our local shop) that I think it looks a lot better when a group is very synchronized. It has more "pow." It's fine for soloists to express themselves as individuals, and I do understand that that's the root of Dans Orientale, but I don't think it's appropriate for a group dance. I was saying that I thought our troupe should adopt a couple of tribal principles in order to become more synchronized--not improving, but the concept of synchronizing our movements to a leader when performing a choreography makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by Shalimah

If that leader makes a mistake in the choreography, she is not wrong. Anyone who doesn't follow her and who instead does the choreographed step is wrong.

One of my lines when we're getting ready for performance is always 'Whoever is in front is always right.' ..l;,

I do think, as some have mentioned, that even an Orientale troupe should be quite synchronized

I agree. Although creating that synchronization can't be the primary goal of an Oriental instructor, it should definitely be the goal of a troupe director.

What a great clip!!! Wow!!

It looks like it's choreographed, based on movements, stylized technique, and combos found in ATS. ATS can get a bit muddled when there are more than 4 dancers in the center because ultimately, you'll have dancers who cannot see the leader.
Ultra Gypsy does some wonderful interactive line changes and such that, unless drilled and cued over and over again, would be extremely tricky in strict improv.

Again, what a great clip!!

Any group performance of ANY style of dance should be synchronized and rehearsed until your feet bleed. I don't think it has anything to do with style differences in terms of professional, polished presentation of a group piece. It has everything to do with practice practice practice and a ton of rehearsal for good measure.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

If you want to compare a pro-level oriental troupe to Ultra Gypsy, you'd have to compare the Desert Roses, or Suhaila's troupe, or Jillina's Sahlala, or Lotus Niraja's troupe. I'm sure you could find any of the above on youtube.

I was only going by what I saw at the festival I was at. The tribals were more in synch with each other than the Oriental styles (the ones I saw at least) but it now makes sense in light of Zum's first post. And yes, I picked a clip of pros on you tube, but it was the only one I could find that illustrated my question. Off now to watch the above mentioned troupes....

It is always interesting to see the different interpretations between the styles - good topic!

Some examples of more oriental/cabaret style choreography:

YouTube - Arabesque Dance Co. - Layali Nour

YouTube - Arabesque Dance Co.Bellydance - Leilet Hob

YouTube - Suhaila Salimpour's "Sheherezade" Promo

Originally Posted by elljay

Any group performance of ANY style of dance should be synchronized and rehearsed until your feet bleed. I don't think it has anything to do with style differences in terms of professional, polished presentation of a group piece. It has everything to do with practice practice practice and a ton of rehearsal for good measure.

Exactly, if it is meant to be danced as a troupe - whether it is Tribal or Orientale or Folkloric or Jazz or ... then practice with a good director gets you there. The "tightness" achieved will depend on the dancers skill and dedication and the vision of the leader (some styles want more individual styling - we did some jazz pieces where we were not to always do all the same thing at the same time but rather hit the specified beats and be in the right position for the true "chorus" parts; and folkoric with everyone the same always looks wrong to me - too sanatized)

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

Well that gives clarity. I didn't know about the set combos and special cues of tribal. that makes sense. Sorry about my ignorance on the gypsy and Egyptian Cabaret thing. I did't know.

Now, now, Miss HookedNovice, of course you don't know, you're a self-described novice -- give yourself a break already! You're asking excellent questions, which means you're learning tons of stuff at lightening speed! ..g.:

Deborah

Originally Posted by mahsati

It is always interesting to see the different interpretations between the styles - good topic!

Some examples of more oriental/cabaret style choreography:

YouTube - Arabesque Dance Co. - Layali Nour

YouTube - Arabesque Dance Co.Bellydance - Leilet Hob

YouTube - Suhaila Salimpour's "Sheherezade" Promo

Thanks for posting these clips, especially the Layali Nour. Very creative! It looks like Orientale influenced a bit by modern Tribal Fusion as well as Modern Egyptian. Nice.

Yes thanks, I had a hard time finding some on my own. Thie ones I came up with were not as impressive

Always happy to see Yasmina's work appreciated! She is an amazing lady with a great vision for her dance company. Very professional.

As just about everyone has said so far, Tribal was originally designed to be group improvisation, with dancers following a leader and being aware of various (usually) non-verbal cues. When watching a good tribal improv, it looks like tight choreography. And often GP is unaware that there is no choreography.

Since cabaret/oriental was originally a solo style, it's less common to see groups together, and a lot of times if you see a group they're less likely to be in synch. I started tribal and moved to cab, and remember being really surprised while watching a rehearsal of student choreography, the other dancers who had only taken cab classes had no idea that they should be in synch or aware of the other dancers' positions. The teacher was aware of the problem but didn't seem to know how to fix it. But that was one studio, since I've been been to other studios where group choreographies are very tight. Here are a few more tight cabaret clips to add to the mix:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEEUDq2e2e0]YouTube - New video by Evgenia Kopteva[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Sdix2sua0]YouTube - Hastánc -- Bellydance -- Ya Amar Dance Group[/ame]

Whoa! I love that second clip. What a clever choreo!! I am saving that to my favorites list Thanks for posting.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Now, now, Miss HookedNovice, of course you don't know, you're a self-described novice -- give yourself a break already! You're asking excellent questions, which means you're learning tons of stuff at lightening speed! ..g.:

Deborah

And thank you for asking the questions because I'm learning along with you
..g.:
dancingbear

Good! Sometimes I feel like I'm the only baby belly posting all over the place..l;,..l;,. So many professional dancers and instructors here!! Which is good for me because of all the info, but speak up you other "novices" I know your're out there..g.:..g.:..g.:

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

Good! Sometimes I feel like I'm the only baby belly posting all over the place..l;,..l;,. So many professional dancers and instructors here!! Which is good for me because of all the info, but speak up you other "novices" I know your're out there..g.:..g.:..g.:

There are hundreds of them, often intimidated by the idea of posting here. You are their queen. ..g.:

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

Good! Sometimes I feel like I'm the only baby belly posting all over the place..l;,..l;,. So many professional dancers and instructors here!! Which is good for me because of all the info, but speak up you other "novices" I know your're out there..g.:..g.:..g.:

I am right along with you posting baby belly stupid question of the week. Of course they are not really stupid, it just seems like some things I *should* know and don't and are probabley really easy questions for the pro's around here!

Thank you for asking! I had no idea how ATS was set up and now I do (at least the basics!)